Quest for mold-resistant strains, Hawaii outdoor greenhouse grow

[CBDMed]

There is the physical/structural dimension to avoiding bud rot too. Plants with narrow leaves and a more stretchy structure tend to be the evolutionary outcome of humid tropical cannabis.

Yes.
Afghan Mass XXL has much airier, much looser buds.

Plants with massive juicy buds/colas always have more tendency to various kinds of fungal attacks. Maui Waui is your classic Hawaiian strain (landrace more or less). Look to that form, or stretchy narrow-leaf phenos of whatever appeals to you, and those plants will do better at getting air moving inside the plant .

I have mostly done indicas, for the CBD, and I like the CBD potency. But sativas are really good for me also.
I have had OTHER people tell me I do better on Harlequin. (That is OTHER people's favorite strain for me.) All I can figure is that it is a high-CBD Sativa, so I hope to look for other high-CBD sativas.

RIght now I need to grow out the seeds I already have, but they have 2-3 breeding houses here, and you can select what you want by elevation (climate). When it comes time to buy seeds again I will look for CBD 1:1.

Do your own crosses with promising strains. Luther Burbank would plant out thousands of seedlings and select a few; this is essentially landrace evolution speeded up to a season or so. We can't plant thousands of seeds, but we can intellegently select the best of what we have.

It sounds like I am going to end up learning about breeding, whether I planned to or not

Try to get regular seeds of a good strain so you have a true male to work with and slowly breed for the traits you want. If you have a few good strains the genes are in there. We can breed to select and enhance what is best for a location. The best plant for you and your location probably does not yet exist.

That is very encouraging. Thank you. Hopefully I can learn enough so I can purchase seeds that are more mold and bud rot resistant to start with.
I grew two plants outside, and both got bud rot.
I have had 3 or 4 plants get bud rot and gray mold even inside the grow room under fans. Right now I am just having fun growing everything, to see what I like best
And after this run of autos I want to maybe go back to photos, and put away some serious cob (assuming the CBD makes it, which I am pretty sure it should).
Haha, but I want to buy more CBD sativa seeds now!

 

[cbdhemp808]

Hmmm....
Well, to ask a question of ignorance, one time I read where, if you want mold resistance, choose landrace strains from humid tropical areas (like Thailand) that have lots of humidity in the air, because they selected for what grew best and gave them the most desirable results over time.
Is that not a good strategy?

Sure, that is the usual line of thinking, and it turns out also that I think a lot of sativas will have high terpinolene content and the accompanying other pine terpenes. But not all sativas exhibit this, and I don't think it's a guarantee that something labeled as a sativa, or a tropical sativa, will necessarily be bud rot resistant. For example, I grew Green Mountain Grape from Ace Seeds (who specialize in landraces) and it was definitely not bud rot resistant. (Unfortunately, no terpene profile was available.)

I am exploring this in terms of terpenes, because I definitely think that the terpenes are imparting the bulk of the bud rot resistance, and it makes sense. The plant is defending itself from pathogens that want to eat it, including botrytis. A plant that can't defend itself won't produce as much offspring. So they evolved volatile terpenes that pathogens such as fungus are vulnerable to. From my perspective, this is a mechanical/chemical effect on the plant surfaces, whereby the off-gassing volatiles zap the spores at the microscopic level, either killing them or otherwise preventing them from growing.

In the past week I've been tuning into the association between landrace indicas and terpinolene, and indica strains such as Big Bud and Northern Lights that are not too distant genetically (relatively speaking) from landraces. I have heard probably more than once that Grand Daddy Purple – an indica dominant strain – is bud rot resistant (GDP = Big Bud x Purple Urkle). So I checked terpene profiles and found that it contains significant amounts of terpinolene. I was surprised, because I think this is quite rare for an indica. So then I looked deeper, and researched the lineage of Grand Daddy Purple. To make a longer story short... I settled on Atomic Northern Lights as an indica that's terpinolene dominant. But I also want to try out Grand daddy Purple.

From the start in this thread, I have been looking for sativa, indica, and 50/50 hybrids that are highly bud rot resistant. And of course, the reason is... I live in a notoriously bad climate for growing cannabis, in terms of mold and fungus. It's a warm, wet, humid, tropical environment. I have found two strains/phenos so far that are quite good, both from Humboldt Seed Co.: HI-BISCUS (50/50 w/ sativa effects) and Humboldt Dream (indica-dominant). I had zero bud rot with HI-BISCUS. Although I haven't seen a terpene profile yet for HI-BISCUS, there's plenty of evidence on the internet that the phenos are either terpinolene-dominant or high in terpinolene. As for Humboldt Dream phenos, the terp profiles are even more obscure. I've seen some evidence of high amounts of pinene, but no evidence yet of terpinolene. Humboldt Dream does show some bud rot resistance (last harvest was quite good), and some degree of leaf mold resistance, but not fantastic.

There is the physical/structural dimension to avoiding bud rot too. Plants with narrow leaves and a more stretchy structure tend to be the evolutionary outcome of humid tropical cannabis. Plants with massive juicy buds/colas always have more tendency to various kinds of fungal attacks. Maui Waui is your classic Hawaiian strain (landrace more or less). Look to that form, or stretchy narrow-leaf phenos of whatever appeals to you, and those plants will do better at getting air moving inside the plant . Do your own crosses with promising strains. Luther Burbank would plant out thousands of seedlings and select a few; this is essentially landrace evolution speeded up to a season or so. We can't plant thousands of seeds, but we can intellegently select the best of what we have. Try to get regular seeds of a good strain so you have a true male to work with and slowly breed for the traits you want. If you have a few good strains the genes are in there. We can breed to select and enhance what is best for a location. The best plant for you and your location probably does not yet exist.

Again... sure, we all know that sativas are associated with bud rot resistance. Is it because of their structure? I can believe that it contributes, but I don't think it's the primary reason. I grew beautiful 90% sativas from Green Mountain Grape regular seed, and they succumbed to major bud rot (ACE refers to it as an "almost pure sativa"). Here's the GMG lineage. I flowered two females, one a green bud pheno, the other a purple bud pheno. Both had lots of bud rot. Did I just happen upon two unfavorable phenos? Possibly. But that points out another problem, and that's phenotypic variability. I'm looking for genetics that are reliably bud rot resistant without needing to search through phenos. I think this approach is highly possible and practical, if indeed the terpinolene/pine terps theory pans out. And there is evidence, because – as I said – it appears that HI-BISCUS reliably produces phenos with significant terpinolene content, and the results are fantastic.

But there's more to the picture...

I just harvested my CBD #9, which is a 10% CBD variety of Cherry Blossom (THC < 1%). I would say this is a 50/50 hybrid, indica dominant. I have never had my single pheno tested for terps, however I've seen a terpene profile that shows high amounts of myrcene and pinene, but not terpinolene. I've done multiple harvests of this plant over the past few years, and there's always some bud rot. This time I grew in a 10 gal. pot (instead of 5 or 7 gal), for the first time, and the plant grew very tall and I topped at 8 ft. to fit in the greenhouse. The top buds were some of the best buds I've ever harvested – big and dense. Basically zero bud rot in those top colas. There was some bud rot, especially lower down, but it was very isolated. ...I was kind of blown away.

So, it has now become obvious to me that the health of the plant is super important, and in my case – since I've covered basically all the other bases – the only remaining factor was pot size. The vigor of the plant is super important at the time leading up to the harvest. This is the time when both premature senescence can set in, and bud rot can get started. If the pot size is sufficient, then the needs of the plant are better met. And it's not just about nutrients, but about the health of the root zone. A pot that's too small results in an unhealthy root zone. Again, this matters the most at the time leading up to harvest, in terms of resistance to bud rot. I have another pheno of the Cherry Blossom, my CBD #1, and it's a very amazing, vigorous plant. I have a clone mom of CBD #1 right now in a 1 gal. pot, and she's way too big for the pot, but still looking absolutely amazing. So, plants can look amazing in pots that are too small, but bad things can happen when you try to flower them in pots that are too small.

In my case, with my outdoor greenhouse grow, I can safely say I've been flowering plants in pots that are too small (5, 6, and 7 gallon.) But I also flowered some plants in 15 gal fabric smart pots, and they also showed lots of bud rot. The fact that I was unknowingly stressing the plants in the smaller pots, leading up to flowering, pushed me to do three things: 1) look for ways to chemically suppress the leaf mold and bud rot (or apply beneficial biological foliar sprays), and 2) begin to think about finding strains that are naturally resistant to these pathogens.

I ultimately decided to completely bypass the chemical/biological methods – I simply don't want to deal with that, because it's too much work, given the realities of my tropical environment here. So, this line of reasoning led me to Humboldt Seed Co. and their HI-BISCUS strain, in Nov. 2022, which was specifically bred for mold/fungus resistance. Their seed sprouted like a dream. The seedlings vegged over winter, and I grew one pheno to flower and harvest, in a 5 gal. pot. In May of 2023 I had a great harvest with zero bud rot. There was plenty of leaf mold leading up to harvest, but no bud rot. And so, this is how a seed was planted in my head to begin looking at terpenes.

Hence began this thread, and my quest for mold/fungus resistant strains of sativa, indica, and 50/50 hybrids. The pot size of 10 gal (black plastic), along with good timing of up-potting to 10 gal and transfer from veg to flower, is the golden ticket. I've been scheming on the perfect terpene combination to provide both bud rot and leaf mold resistance. It seems I'm on the right track for bud rot resistance, with terpinolene and the associated pine terpenes. Leaf mold resistance is still a bit more mysterious, but we'll see what turns up next with the new genetics... Slymer pheno of Chernobyl (sativa-dominant), Agent Orange (sativa-dominant), Grand Daddy Purple (indica-dominant), and Atomic Northern Lights (indica-dominant). All are terpinolene strains.

 

[Azimuth]

You've got two great projects going, @cbdhemp808 and I'm enjoying following along.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Thank you Azi! I'm getting close now to the next step for the bud dryer. ... been lagging this month on work-related stuff. But I think I've arrived at a decent design now for the dehum/controls part of the system.

 

[CBDMed]

Sure, that is the usual line of thinking, and it turns out also that I think a lot of sativas will have high terpinolene content and the accompanying other pine terpenes. But not all sativas exhibit this, and I don't think it's a guarantee that something labeled as a sativa, or a tropical sativa, will necessarily be bud rot resistant. For example, I grew Green Mountain Grape from Ace Seeds (who specialize in landraces) and it was definitely not bud rot resistant.

(Unfortunately, no terpene profile was available.)

I am exploring this in terms of terpenes, because I definitely think that the terpenes are imparting the bulk of the bud rot resistance, and it makes sense. The plant is defending itself from pathogens that want to eat it, including botrytis. A plant that can't defend itself won't produce as much offspring. So they evolved volatile terpenes that pathogens such as fungus are vulnerable to. From my perspective, this is a mechanical/chemical effect on the plant surfaces, whereby the off-gassing volatiles zap the spores at the microscopic level, either killing them or otherwise preventing them from growing.

In the past week I've been tuning into the association between landrace indicas and terpinolene, and indica strains such as Big Bud and Northern Lights that are not too distant genetically (relatively speaking) from landraces. I have heard probably more than once that Grand Daddy Purple – an indica dominant strain – is bud rot resistant (GDP = Big Bud x Purple Urkle). So I checked terpene profiles and found that it contains significant amounts of terpinolene. I was surprised, because I think this is quite rare for an indica. So then I looked deeper, and researched the lineage of Grand Daddy Purple. To make a longer story short... I settled on Atomic Northern Lights as an indica that's terpinolene dominant.

Interesting.
I will have to look for a CBD Atomic NL next time.
And pay attention to terpinolene.
Terpinolene is Citrusy-pine?? (I think that is what I taste in AMXXL.)

But I also want to try out Grand daddy Purple.

From the start in this thread, I have been looking for sativa, indica, and 50/50 hybrids that are highly bud rot resistant. And of course, the reason is... I live in a notoriously bad climate for growing cannabis, in terms of mold and fungus. It's a warm, wet, humid, tropical environment.

Yes, it sounds like you are going for something you can plant in the middle of the jungle and it does not rot, without fans.
Seems challenging.
I hope you find it!

I have found two strains/phenos so far that are quite good, both from Humboldt Seed Co.: HI-BISCUS (50/50 w/ sativa effects) and Humboldt Dream (indica-dominant). I had zero bud rot with HI-BISCUS. Although I haven't seen a terpene profile yet for HI-BISCUS, there's plenty of evidence on the internet that the phenos are either terpinolene-dominant or high in terpinolene. As for Humboldt Dream phenos, the terp profiles are even more obscure. I've seen some evidence of high amounts of pinene, but no evidence yet of terpinolene. Humboldt Dream does show some bud rot resistance (last harvest was quite good), and some degree of leaf mold resistance, but not fantastic.


Again... sure, we all know that sativas are associated with bud rot resistance. Is it because of their structure? I can believe that it contributes, but I don't think it's the primary reason. I grew beautiful 90% sativas from Green Mountain Grape regular seed, and they succumbed to major bud rot (ACE refers to it as an "almost pure sativa"). Here's the GMG lineage. I flowered two females, one a green bud pheno, the other a purple bud pheno. Both had lots of bud rot. Did I just happen upon two unfavorable phenos? Possibly. But that points out another problem, and that's phenotypic variability. I'm looking for genetics that are reliably bud rot resistant without needing to search through phenos. I think this approach is highly possible and practical, if indeed the terpinolene/pine terps theory pans out. And there is evidence, because – as I said – it appears that HI-BISCUS reliably produces phenos with significant terpinolene content, and the results are fantastic.

Hmm.

But there's more to the picture...

I just harvested my CBD #9, which is a 10% CBD variety of Cherry Blossom (THC < 1%). I would say this is a 50/50 hybrid, indica dominant. I have never had my single pheno tested for terps, however I've seen a terpene profile that shows high amounts of myrcene and pinene, but not terpinolene. I've done multiple harvests of this plant over the past few years, and there's always some bud rot. This time I grew in a 10 gal. pot (instead of 5 or 7 gal), for the first time, and the plant grew very tall and I topped at 8 ft. to fit in the greenhouse. The top buds were some of the best buds I've ever harvested – big and dense. Basically zero bud rot in those top colas. There was some bud rot, especially lower down, but it was very isolated. ...I was kind of blown away.

So, it has now become obvious to me that the health of the plant is super important, and in my case – since I've covered basically all the other bases – the only remaining factor was pot size. The vigor of the plant is super important at the time leading up to the harvest. This is the time when both premature senescence can set in, and bud rot can get started. If the pot size is sufficient, then the needs of the plant are better met. And it's not just about nutrients, but about the health of the root zone. A pot that's too small results in an unhealthy root zone. Again, this matters the most at the time leading up to harvest, in terms of resistance to bud rot. I have another pheno of the Cherry Blossom, my CBD #1, and it's a very amazing, vigorous plant. I have a clone mom of CBD #1 right now in a 1 gal. pot, and she's way too big for the pot, but still looking absolutely amazing. So, plants can look amazing in pots that are too small, but bad things can happen when you try to flower them in pots that are too small.

In my case, with my outdoor greenhouse grow, I can safely say I've been flowering plants in pots that are too small (5, 6, and 7 gallon.) But I also flowered some plants in 15 gal fabric smart pots, and they also showed lots of bud rot. The fact that I was unknowingly stressing the plants in the smaller pots, leading up to flowering, pushed me to do three things: 1) look for ways to chemically suppress the leaf mold and bud rot (or apply beneficial biological foliar sprays), and 2) begin to think about finding strains that are naturally resistant to these pathogens.

I ultimately decided to completely bypass the chemical/biological methods – I simply don't want to deal with that, because it's too much work, given the realities of my tropical environment here. So, this line of reasoning led me to Humboldt Seed Co. and their HI-BISCUS strain, in Nov. 2022, which was specifically bred for mold/fungus resistance. Their seed sprouted like a dream. The seedlings vegged over winter, and I grew one pheno to flower and harvest, in a 5 gal. pot. In May of 2023 I had a great harvest with zero bud rot. There was plenty of leaf mold leading up to harvest, but no bud rot. And so, this is how a seed was planted in my head to begin looking at terpenes.

Hence began this thread, and my quest for mold/fungus resistant strains of sativa, indica, and 50/50 hybrids. The pot size of 10 gal (black plastic), along with good timing of up-potting to 10 gal and transfer from veg to flower, is the golden ticket. I've been scheming on the perfect terpene combination to provide both bud rot and leaf mold resistance. It seems I'm on the right track for bud rot resistance, with terpinolene and the associated pine terpenes. Leaf mold resistance is still a bit more mysterious, but we'll see what turns up next with the new genetics... Slymer pheno of Chernobyl (sativa-dominant), Agent Orange (sativa-dominant), Grand Daddy Purple (indica-dominant), and Atomic Northern Lights (indica-dominant). All are terpinolene strains.

Muy interesante.
I should look up CBD varieties that are bred for mold and pm resistance...
Great information about terpinolene. I will have to keep an eye on that from now on.
Is there a best website for looking up the terpene profiles in Afghan Mass XXL?
Thanks.

 

[CBDMed]

EDIT: Terpinolene is the lemony, citrussy, pine-smelling one? (I think that is part of Afghan Mass XXL that I like.)

So, I could hypothetically do a search for "terpinolene dominant CBD strains" and then weed and sort (haha, pun not intended)?

 

[cbdhemp808]

Muy interesante.
I should look up CBD varieties that are bred for mold and pm resistance...
Great information about terpinolene. I will have to keep an eye on that from now on.
Is there a best website for looking up the terpene profiles in Afghan Mass XXL?
Thanks.

I have looked at a lot of CBD type 3, and so far I haven't found any specifically bred for mold/fungus resistance. Relatively speaking, these strains just haven't been around very long.

This article talks about the emergence of the type 2 cannabis:

The History and Emergence of the CBD Cannabis Strains

Learn more about the emergence of cannabidiol (CBD) cannabis and why strains high in this cannabinoid continue to grow in popularity.

www.leafly.com

The emergence of the type 3 strains is more murky. In fact, I just did a Google search for the subject and nothing turned up. But by 2018 I was doing heavy research in this area, and I can tell you... it was around 2009 I think that some of the first strains emerged. Type 3 was created by breeding Type 1 with so-called industrial hemp. One early breeder was Ben Holmes of Centennial Seeds in Colorado who invented the BaOx and Otto seed lines (circa 2009). A big splash was made by the Stanley brothers when their Charlotte's Web hit the scene in 2011 and was made famous for successfully treating seizures in children. The Crawford brothers in Oregon were also pioneers who established their CBD hemp breeding company in 2015, and to my knowledge, were among the first to break the 15% CBD barrier, with strains like Special Sauce, Lifter, and Suver Haze. They also bred the first high-CBD autoflowering plants. [source]

But one cannot mention the roots of CBD strains without mentioning the pioneering work of the late Lawrence Ringo who founded the Southern Humboldt Seed Collective in 2010. High Times wrote this about Lawrence Ringo just a year ago...

"...Charlotte’s Web actually came from a combination of seeds and starts purchased from the Southern Humboldt Seed Collective, after being painstakingly hybridized for nearly 15 years by longtime Southern Humboldt cannabis farmer, Lawrence Ringo." [ source - great article, give it a read! ]

(Interesting side note: I have had a lot of trouble finding a stable seed line for type 3 with CBD over 15%. The best I've been able to grow so far is Sweet Critical CBD by 00 Seeds, which tested 15%. But there are genetics that hit 18% or 20%, or more. It seems that those are lucky phenotypes, and available only as clones. For example, I've heard of phenos of Ringo's Gift showing above 20% CBD. Particularly, one called "The Gift".)

So, maybe we can say that it all started in the many years prior to 2010 with the work of Lawrence Ringo. But around that same time, things were brewing in Spain as well with the creation of the strain, Juanita la Lagrimosa, by Reggae Seeds (circa 2004), which gave rise to Dancehall and Cannatonic. In 2010 they began work on a high-CBD, low-THC strain...

"In 2010, Elite Seeds and Reggae Seeds started a joint project to develop a stable, CBD rich, feminised version of Juanita la Lagrimosa. They selected a few plants and backrossed them with Juanita until finding a plant with high CBD content and low THC." [ source ]

Well, that's about as much detail as I can get into here today, on this subject. Lots more info is out there if you dig. Here's another article talking about the origins of Cannatonic HERE, and lots more about Juanita la Lagrimosa HERE (in Spanish, 2014).

EDIT: Terpinolene is the lemony, citrussy, pine-smelling one? (I think that is part of Afghan Mass XXL that I like.)

As I said, terpinolene is usually present with the other pine terpenes: pinene, terpinene, and ocimene. So I think you'll get basically a pine scent. To me, the lemon and citrus is from limonene, which is usually part of just about all terpene profiles, along with myrcene. I haven't smelled pure terpinolene before, but if you look up the scent online, it's reported to be piney and woody, sweet, with floral and citrus undertones.

So, I could hypothetically do a search for "terpinolene dominant CBD strains" and then weed and sort (haha, pun not intended)?

Unfortunately, that won't bring up an answer directly. You can try: "CBD strains" "terpinolene dominant" (with quotes like that). I just tried that and a terpene company website came up, claiming...

"Terpinolene is typically found in sativa-dominant strains high in THC. There are virtually no high-CBD strains with a substantial degree of Terpinolene content."

That's the first I've heard that high-CBD strains don't contain significant amounts of terpinolene. I don't know if I even believe that. I can imagine, though, that's it's rare, because high-CBD is usually associated with indicas, and high terpinolene is typically not found in indicas, although there are exceptions as I've found recently. Seedsman 30:1 CBD could be one that contains terpinolene, because I noticed sativa effects from it, and it had a piney scent.

A general challenge here is that it's often not easy to find reliable terpene profiles for a given strain, and if you do find one or more, you are also dealing with phenotypic differences, which equate to terpene profile differences. It's complicated. And then with CBD strains (chemotype 3), they haven't been around for nearly as long as THC strains, so it's often very difficult to find terpene profiles. Add to that the irritating tendency for seed sellers & breeders to not provide terp profiles for the phenos of the seeds they are selling. Often the only way to get a reading on the terps is to grow out the seed, select the best phenos, flower them out, and get the buds tested.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Seedsman 30:1 CBD could be one that contains terpinolene, because I noticed sativa effects from it, and it had a piney scent.

If it's high in CBD wouldn't sativa effects rule out the possibility of higher terpinolene content since CBD and terpinolene are sedative when combined?

 

[cbdhemp808]

If it's high in CBD wouldn't sativa effects rule out the possibility of higher terpinolene content since CBD and terpinolene are sedative when combined?

Lets' see if I can unpack...

Yep, the bud tested ~12% CBD and ~0.5% THC. All I can say is, I got a definite stimulating effect from vaping it. I've vaped a lot of 10% CBD bud, and this was different. Not super stimulating, but definitely noticeable. The leaves of the plant were distinctly more sativa-like than my other CBD plants.

CORRECTION: I went back to my harvest report and ... it actually didn't have a pine scent, but rather, "sweet and slightly fruity".

So, since the plant had sativa leaf characteristics, as well as sativa effects, we could guess that the "sweet and slightly fruity" scent could be coming from terpinolene. But the absence of a pine scent is confusing.

I think the root of the question is, what is giving the sativa effects? According to my theory, it's the presence of terpinolene and the other pine terpenes. If there's no strong pine scent, then that implies the lack of pinene, and therefore perhaps the presence of terpinolene (aka delta terpinene), ocimene, and one of the other terpinenes known for having some degree of "sweet" and "citrus" scent.

Another BIG clue from the harvest report: even though the plant was in a small pot (5 gal), meaning somewhat stressed, there was zero bud rot. This is exactly what happened with my HI-BISCUS harvest, and that strain is known to contain significant terpinolene.

So, thanks very much for this question. I think it points to some evidence that terpinolene may be contributing strong bud rot resistance even without the presence of significant amounts of pinene. The plant did suffer from a lot of powdery mildew, so perhaps the terpenes that are associated with leaf mold resistance were not sufficiently present. Those could actually be pinene in combination with myrcene. I have experienced Humboldt Dream as being fairly resistant to leaf mold, and the terpene profile does contain pinene and myrcene. In fact those are the dominant terpenes in at least one of the phenos. My pheno also shows a good degree of bud rot resistance. [More info HERE] But I have to add a caveat: any conclusions to be drawn from terpene profiles requires accurate profiles of the phenos that you are actually growing and experiencing, and I'll admit, I don't have any terpene profiles for any of my phenos. Yet .

As to why the effect was stimulating and not sedating, I can only guess that it's because of a specific combination of the terpenes.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Yep, the bud tested ~12% CBD and ~0.5% THC.

So, since the plant had sativa leaf characteristics, as well as sativa effects, we could guess that the "sweet and slightly fruity" scent could be coming from terpinolene.

Not to be argumentative, but that's what I'm getting at.
Terpinolene on it's own is a weak sedative, and is significantly stronger as a sedative when combined with CBD. It's only stimulating when combined with THC.
Myrcene is also weakly sedative, so if your buds turned out to be stimulating, I would think that would be evidence against the presence of terpinolene in that one.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Not to be argumentative, but that's what I'm getting at.
Terpinolene on it's own is a weak sedative, and is significantly stronger as a sedative when combined with CBD. It's only stimulating when combined with THC.
Myrcene is also weakly sedative, so if your buds turned out to be stimulating, I would think that would be evidence against the presence of terpinolene in that one.

No problem, but I think terpinolene isn't well understood yet, especially when it is in combination with other terpenes, and in the presence of CBD, all at the same time. Keep in mind also that the CBD molecule is almost identical to the THC molecule, from what I've heard. God knows what biochemical magic is playing out!

Unfortunately, I let go of that pheno of Seedsman 30:1 CBD, so I'll never know what the terps actually were. But the results were very interesting. Maybe I should get some more seed, now that I'm growing in 10 gal. pots!

And then there's this...

I have recently discovered that there are indica-dominant THC strains that are high in terpinolene, and even terpinolene-dominant, with classic indica effects. The ones I found are... Grand Daddy Purple, Big Bud, and some phenos of Northern Lights. Apparently, Atomic Northern Lights is terpinolene dominant. All have the classic relaxing body high of an indica. So my plan is to acquire the GDP and the Atomic and try them out for bud rot resistance.

Maybe terpinolene (by itself or in combination w/ one or more other terps) synergizes with THC to produce stimulating effects, and synergizes with CBD to produce relaxing effects. However, perhaps at lower levels, as would be found in terpene profiles that are more of the 50/50 type (sativa/indica), it can produce less-pronounced stimulating effects in combination with CBD – i.e. the effects of the CBD are enhanced, but there's also a slight stimulating effect at the same time. I think that's an accurate description of what I experienced with the Seedsman 30:1 CBD buds.

 

[cbdhemp808]

More on Seedsman 30:1 CBD...

First, Seedsman says it's sativa dominant, and Leafy says 80% sativa.

I checked out some grow diaries for Dr. Seedsman 30:1, and all but one say at least 75% sativa, and flavor is mostly described as one or more of: sweet, berry, citrus, tropical. Some said earthy. Only one said pine.

I checked grow diaries for Grand Daddy Purple, and the consensus seems to be chiefly "berry", followed by "sweet". Nobody is saying pine. Everyone agrees it's high indica dominant.

So, that's an observation that GDP, which is known for terpinolene content, doesn't have a pine scent.

Another terpinolene plant, Big Bud, is describes as sweet and spicy with a grape aftertaste. Not pine at all.

 

[CBDMed]

I have looked at a lot of CBD type 3, and so far I haven't found any specifically bred for mold/fungus resistance. Relatively speaking, these strains just haven't been around very long.

Yeah.
No.

As I said, terpinolene is usually present with the other pine terpenes: pinene, terpinene, and ocimene. So I think you'll get basically a pine scent. To me, the lemon and citrus is from limonene, which is usually part of just about all terpene profiles, along with myrcene. I haven't smelled pure terpinolene before, but if you look up the scent online, it's reported to be piney and woody, sweet, with floral and citrus undertones.

(Sounds like Afghan Mass XXL Auto...)

Unfortunately, that won't bring up an answer directly. You can try: "CBD strains" "terpinolene dominant" (with quotes like that). I just tried that and a terpene company website came up, claiming...

I tried that yesterday, actually, and that is what happened.

"Terpinolene is typically found in sativa-dominant strains high in THC. There are virtually no high-CBD strains with a substantial degree of Terpinolene content."

That's the first I've heard that high-CBD strains don't contain significant amounts of terpinolene.

Hmm
It is news to me, but I did search for "terpinolene dominant CBD strainsl, and just like you said, it did not give me both together. It only gave me terpinolene, or CBD. (I don't know anything about this field, I'm just relating my experience from yesterday, knowing nothing.)

Now I am wondering if that is why I like the Afghan Mass XXL so much, is maybe because of the terpinolene...?
Things that make you go Hmm

I don't know if I even believe that. I can imagine, though, that's it's rare, because high-CBD is usually associated with indicas, and high terpinolene is typically not found in indicas, although there are exceptions as I've found recently. Seedsman 30:1 CBD could be one that contains terpinolene, because I noticed sativa effects from it, and it had a piney scent.

Now I am looking forward to trying the Seedsman.

A general challenge here is that it's often not easy to find reliable terpene profiles for a given strain, and if you do find one or more, you are also dealing with phenotypic differences, which equate to terpene profile differences. It's complicated. And then with CBD strains (chemotype 3), they haven't been around for nearly as long as THC strains, so it's often very difficult to find terpene profiles. Add to that the irritating tendency for seed sellers & breeders to not provide terp profiles for the phenos of the seeds they are selling. Often the only way to get a reading on the terps is to grow out the seed, select the best phenos, flower them out, and get the buds tested.

Thank you CBD. That is very interesting. I was wondering why I liked the Afghan Mass XXL so much, and why it seemed like it had a different kind of a relax to it. I wonder if that is the terpinolene.

Well, I have a few hours today and rather than do research, I need to make buckets and put seeds. Then when they are growing I can do research then, ha ha right now I am just catching a breather

 

[CBDMed]

Unfortunately, I let go of that pheno of Seedsman 30:1 CBD, so I'll never know what the terps actually were. But the results were very interesting. Maybe I should get some more seed, now that I'm growing in 10 gal. pots!

If it works in with your plans, it would seem like good data to have. Did you like that strain?

And then there's this...

I have recently discovered that there are indica-dominant THC strains that are high in terpinolene, and even terpinolene-dominant, with classic indica effects. The ones I found are... Grand Daddy Purple, Big Bud, and some phenos of Northern Lights. Apparently, Atomic Northern Lights is terpinolene dominant. All have the classic relaxing body high of an indica. So my plan is to acquire the GDP and the Atomic and try them out for bud rot resistance.

If you do end up going that route, I am looking forward to hearing the lab report on the atomic.

Maybe terpinolene (by itself or in combination w/ one or more other terps) synergizes with THC to produce stimulating effects, and synergizes with CBD to produce relaxing effects.

I think now I understand what you guys were talking about, about creating my own strain. For example, if I was to find that I respond well to three terpenes, and whatever mix of sativa and Indica, I could literally breed that plant, and adapt it to my climate (which is humid), is that right?

Except I may not be able to come up with a simultaneously high-CBD, high-terpinolene plant, is that right?
So, in that case I would do what you are suggesting, which is to grow my terpinolene in one plant (probably a sativa) and then grow my CBD probably on an Indica?
And the possibility for a good mix also potentially exists when you have a 50-50 Indica-sativa mix?

I think if I adapt anything to this weather it's going to have to be a sativa, with looser buds. I think Nick suggested a Kush on the indica side.

However, perhaps at lower levels, as would be found in terpene profiles that are more of the 50/50 type (sativa/indica), it can produce less-pronounced stimulating effects in combination with CBD – i.e. the effects of the CBD are enhanced, but there's also a slight stimulating effect at the same time. I think that's an accurate description of what I experienced with the Seedsman 30:1 CBD buds.

 

[cbdhemp808]

RE: Seedsman 30:1 CBD

Now I am looking forward to trying the Seedsman.

CORRECTION: I went back to my harvest report and ... it actually didn't have a pine scent, but rather, "sweet and slightly fruity".

Did you like that strain?

Yeah, it was good. Zero bud rot, but lots of PM. It may do a lot better in 10 gal.

 

[cbdhemp808]

If you do end up going that route, I am looking forward to hearing the lab report on the atomic.

Fyi, the Atomic Northern Lights isn't a CBD plant. I mean, maybe they have a CBD version of it, but I'm guessing not.

I think now I understand what you guys were talking about, about creating my own strain. For example, if I was to find that I respond well to three terpenes, and whatever mix of sativa and Indica, I could literally breed that plant, and adapt it to my climate (which is humid), is that right?

I think you could find what you need without breeding. Again, I'm advocating not trying to combine everything into one plant.

Except I may not be able to come up with a simultaneously high-CBD, high-terpinolene plant, is that right?
So, in that case I would do what you are suggesting, which is to grow my terpinolene in one plant (probably a sativa) and then grow my CBD probably on an Indica?
And the possibility for a good mix also potentially exists when you have a 50-50 Indica-sativa mix?

I'm looking at terpinolene specifically for its role in bud rot resistance, not for flavor or effects. As I've written, significant amounts of terpinolene can be found in all three types... sativa, indica, and 50/50. It's harder to find in the indicas. It's a bit more common in the 50/50s, and fairly easy to find in the sativas. For indica, I have found Grand Daddy Purple, Big Bud, Northern Lights #5, and Atomic Northern Lights. Keep in mind though, some sativas don't have it. Durban Poison and Trainwreck have it, and lots of others. I'm planning on trying out the Slymer pheno of Subcool's Chernobyl, and his Agent Orange.

If you look at a lot of terpene profiles, you'll see that there are a bunch of terps that are usually the primary ones, of which there are two groups, and then there's another group that are usually the secondary or background ones. One set of primary ones are: myrcene, limonene, caryophyllene, and humulene, and these are prominent in a lot of strains, and dominant in the indicas. The other set of primary ones are: alpha/beta pinene, terpinolene (aka delta terpinene), the other 2 terpinenes, and ocimene, and these are usually prominent or dominant in a lot of sativas, and usually not prominent in indicas. In the 50/50 hybrids, you'll commonly see a mixture of the two primary sets of terpenes.

I think if I adapt anything to this weather it's going to have to be a sativa, with looser buds. I think Nick suggested a Kush on the indica side.

I don't recommend thinking in terms of adapting anything. There are phenos of strains already available that are highly mold/fungus resistant. By growing photos, you can grow out phenos and find the ones that perform well, and then clone them over and over again indefinitely. I call it the Forever Plant!

Because of my extreme mold/fungus environment, my way of thinking about this issue is probably different from a lot of growers. I'm going for the extreme solution, which are phenos that are inherently super mold/fungus resistant. And I'm finding them. So, this is how I found my way to terpinolene, and my theory of its role in mold/fungus resistance. I'm just going further down that path now.

As for bud structure, I'm leaning away from that now as a root cause of bud rot. I just grew a tall indica-dominant CBD plant and it had big, dense buds at the top, with essentially zero bud rot. At this point, I feel that the main determinants of bud rot resistance are the terpene profile and the vigor of the plant leading up to harvest time. It's a bit premature for me to point to one terpene, but at this point, it looks like terpinolene is the main one, at least in cases where bud rot has the most potential to be a problem (humidity, warmth, ambient spores, stressed plant). And I have solved the vigor issue, in my case, by increasing to 10 gal. pot size.

 

[CBDMed]

Fyi, the Atomic Northern Lights isn't a CBD plant. I mean, maybe they have a CBD version of it, but I'm guessing not.

Oh, right. CBD not mix with Terpinolene...
It is different...

I think you could find what you need without breeding. Again, I'm advocating not trying to combine everything into one plant.

I'm looking at terpinolene specifically for its role in bud rot resistance, not for flavor or effects. As I've written, significant amounts of terpinolene can be found in all three types... sativa, indica, and 50/50. It's harder to find in the indicas. It's a bit more common in the 50/50s, and fairly easy to find in the sativas. For indica, I have found Grand Daddy Purple, Big Bud, Northern Lights #5, and Atomic Northern Lights. Keep in mind though, some sativas don't have it. Durban Poison and Trainwreck have it, and lots of others. I'm planning on trying out the Slymer pheno of Subcool's Chernobyl, and his Agent Orange.

Hmm....
Very good.
I should do what you suggested. If I can get time I will try to research my Afghan Mass XXL better, and Delicious Cheese (Delicious Candy) better, esp vis a vis terpinolene.

If you look at a lot of terpene profiles, you'll see that there are a bunch of terps that are usually the primary ones, of which there are two groups, and then there's another group that are usually the secondary or background ones. One set of primary ones are: myrcene, limonene, caryophyllene, and humulene, and these are prominent in a lot of strains, and dominant in the indicas. The other set of primary ones are: alpha/beta pinene, terpinolene (aka delta terpinene), the other 2 terpinenes, and ocimene, and these are usually prominent or dominant in a lot of sativas, and usually not prominent in indicas. In the 50/50 hybrids, you'll commonly see a mixture of the two primary sets of terpenes.

OK I cannot do this right now, but I hope to do it soon. Right now I need to make buckets and plant seeds, then research later.

I don't recommend thinking in terms of adapting anything. There are phenos of strains already available that are highly mold/fungus resistant. By growing photos, you can grow out phenos and find the ones that perform well, and then clone them over and over again indefinitely. I call it the Forever Plant!

Down lower they grow sativas and they grow for years. They just strip the buds. It probably will not grow much in 60F, but that is only 4-5 months, and if the plant does not die, then the rest of the year is warmer. I just do not want to deal with it until I get to an in-ground situation, which at this point seems years off. So for now it is autos going into the cob, then then probably photos.
I wonder if I will want larger SIPS for my photos.
@Azimuth , do you know how big of photos you can grow in a 5G SIP?

Because of my extreme mold/fungus environment, my way of thinking about this issue is probably different from a lot of growers. I'm going for the extreme solution, which are phenos that are inherently super mold/fungus resistant. And I'm finding them. So, this is how I found my way to terpinolene, and my theory of its role in mold/fungus resistance. I'm just going further down that path now.

Yeah, I kind of thought when the time to plant in ground comes, and let them go, I will look for one of the Colombian breeding houses, and ask them which ones are most cold resistant and last for years (and hopefully have some CBD). But that is maybe a few years from now. Right now I need to build buckets, haha. It feels GOOD to be growing again!!

As for bud structure, I'm leaning away from that now as a root cause of bud rot. I just grew a tall indica-dominant CBD plant and it had big, dense buds at the top, with essentially zero bud rot. At this point, I feel that the main determinants of bud rot resistance are the terpene profile and the vigor of the plant leading up to harvest time. It's a bit premature for me to point to one terpene, but at this point, it looks like terpinolene is the main one, at least in cases where bud rot has the most potential to be a problem (humidity, warmth, ambient spores, stressed plant). And I have solved the vigor issue, in my case, by increasing to 10 gal. pot size.

Ok. I wondered how big of photos I can grow in 5G SIPs with supersoil and 50% aeration.
I think Buds Buddy said he let his photo fems get waist high, and then flipped, and they were some big big girls, but the girls were also out of food, so he was supplementing with anything he could find.
I was wondering if perhaps @Azimuth or anyone knows about how high photo fems should be in a 5 G SIP when you flip.
Other than that I have some Aurora Roots topdressing that I could hypothetically use in case I get in trouble, but it would be great to build what I need into the soil so I do not need to go there (but not TOO much).
I hope to be explaining well.
Does @Azimuth perhaps know?

 

[cbdhemp808]

Oh, right. CBD not mix with Terpinolene...

That's not what I'm saying. I just mean that Atomic Northern Lights isn't a CBD strain, and I doubt if there is a CBD version of it. I don't think there's any reason why a CBD plant couldn't have substantial terpinolene in its profile. I was guessing that maybe Seedsman 30:1 CBD does. That's what we were discussing HERE.

Ok. I wondered how big of photos I can grow in 5G SIPs with supersoil and 50% aeration.
I think Buds Buddy said he let his photo fems get waist high, and then flipped, and they were some big big girls, but the girls were also out of food, so he was supplementing with anything he could find.

Sounds about right.

 

[cbdhemp808]

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[Azimuth]

I was wondering if perhaps @Azimuth or anyone knows about how high photo fems should be in a 5 G SIP when you flip.

Buds' plants were vegged longer than normal as well, but height to flip is same calculation as with any other type pot which is essentially height of room minus amount of vertical height the lights take up, minus distance from the top of the canopy to the lights, and minus your pot height, divided by to or three.

SIP plants are typically larger so stretch can be 3x plant height rather than 2x for most strains (at least indicas).