God Damn my life has all been an elaborate lie !!!! PS great thread with really interesting info. This takes me back to my pot infancy looking at my older brother with a Buddha Stick. I don't know how much hype was involved but these Thai sticks were the beez kneez back in the late '70s in Australia. Compressed very potent weed on a bamboo skewer with cotton wrapped around it. By the time I could afford to buy weed the only Thai was seedy compressed weed that I doubt came from Thailand selling for $280 an oz. To think of all the good seeds from nice weed since that never got the chance to show it's potential it's heart breaking. Cheers Pat.
Origins of the Species
- Thread starter 420
- Start date
Granny Evie
New Member
Very informative, thank you for the time you took. 
Black Thumb
Active Member
Great read
Well, going back to the origins of the species, and not modern strains, recent crosses, etc. etc... early research published by the US Dept. of Agriculture back in 1913 indicate that the origins of the hemp plant were in China, or at least central Asia someplace between the Himalayan Mountains and Siberia. There has been no way to pinpoint where exactly the species evolved beyond that, due to the global prevalence by the early 1900s. Note that I use the term "hemp" here but it is synonymous to cannabis, marijuana, hemp, bhang, weed, pot, Mary Jane, the chronic, etc. etc. I do not make any distinction between them, as many have done more recently (seemingly to differentiate low THC 'hemp' and high TCH marijuana, as defined by US laws). Cannabis is Cannabis, be it hemp, marijuana, or whatever. Its the same genetic plant folks. The US ag publication indicates that all of these names and the plants found around the globe at that time were and are specific to one species: Cannabis sativa. At that time 95% of the Cannabis grown in the world was Cannabis sativa, and most of that was grown for the production of hemp fiber, or for the production of hemp seeds (for food or oil).
I will take a paragraph tangent here on the botanical species, Cannabis. There is and has been debate among botanists in the late 20th century over the issue of the species in the genus Cannabis. One camp assigned a single species in the genus Cannabis, that being Cannabis sativa. The other camp assigned 3 species in the genus that can interbreed, those being Cannabis sativa, Cannabis indica, and Cannabis ruderalis. In 2014 a group of botanists found that the three species were identified incorrectly in the 1970s, and indica was mis-identified as sativa. They say that the species should be re-assigned in the genus Cannabis, and what was sativa should be indica, what was indica should be afghanica, and what was ruderalis should be sativa. Confused? I am.
Continuing... back to the 1913 US ag publications... they indicate that they could only find references for using hemp for fiber production in early China. They attribute the first development and use of hemp for medication and to get high to India, which later spread to Persia and the Middle East. Sanskrit text from 1400 BC use the term bbanga for hemp. It is difficult if not impossible to determine exactly when or where the differentiation occurred between growing hemp specifically for textiles and seeds, and growing hemp to get high. The growing of hemp for these products is exclusive to the others. Meaning that growing hemp for fiber you harvest earlier before seeds and flowers are prevalent; and growing for seeds reduces the psychoactive effects of hemp and results in poor textile quality, and growing for flowers for medical and psychoactive effects results in fewer seeds and poor fiber quality.
Another prevalent theme in the US 1913 ag publications is that hemp is a highly adaptable and variable plant. It is also invasive as all heck, and adapts to different climates rather rapidly and becomes a weed wherever it is grown. One thong they also mention constantly is that if you grow hemp the same location over time, the high variability of seed will reduce the quality of fiber and seed production if you are not careful to select plants specific for high quality products. Meaning that the genetics is very broad in hemp and it will change rapidly to adapt to local environments if left on its own. Basically they are saying that hemp is the perfect invasive weed, so you have to be vigilant in selecting seeds from plants that are of the quality that is preferred for what you are producing. They do not say it, but it is obvious that this carries over to hemp grown for its psychoactive effects. Even with the breeding specifically for medicinal and psychoactive effects, it is rather obvious that these effects are highly varied between modern strains, and even between individual plants among strains.
Another prevalent theme in the US 1913 ag publications is that hemp is a highly adaptable and variable plant. It is also invasive as all heck, and adapts to different climates rather rapidly and becomes a weed wherever it is grown. One thong they also mention constantly is that if you grow hemp the same location over time, the high variability of seed will reduce the quality of fiber and seed production if you are not careful to select plants specific for high quality products. Meaning that the genetics is very broad in hemp and it will change rapidly to adapt to local environments if left on its own. Basically they are saying that hemp is the perfect invasive weed, so you have to be vigilant in selecting seeds from plants that are of the quality that is preferred for what you are producing. They do not say it, but it is obvious that this carries over to hemp grown for its psychoactive effects. Even with the breeding specifically for medicinal and psychoactive effects, it is rather obvious that these effects are highly varied between modern strains, and even between individual plants among strains.
So at the end of my series of posts here on this topic, we have a plant that evolved somewhere in central Asia, circa 5,000+ years ago. At some point hemp plants were collected by humans from the wild and used for fiber, the seeds were collected and eaten, and the flowers were likely collected and eaten or burned and inhaled at that time as well (to get high). It is impossible to tell exactly when or where these events took place. Later as humans developed agriculture, hemp seeds were one of the first plants planted and grown for fiber, seed/food and to get high. Also seeds were selected for future planting, based on qualities that they were being grown for. Hemp was taken with humans and grown wherever they went, and hemp is now grown the world over. Due to its high degree of adaptability and genetic variability, it has been bred for specific and different uses and has become a more evolved plant. What we have today is not the hemp plant of antiquity. In places like India, southeast and central Asia there may be some hemp plants that have been stable for centuries or even millennia, but those plants that are grown in the western hemisphere have obviously rapidly adapted and have changed. It is the nature of the plant to be highly variable and highly adaptable. It is the perfect weed and highly useful to humans in a symbiotic relationship. Cannabis has concurred the world with us modern humans.
Conradino23
Well-Known Member
Hmm indicas don't like my climate a lot, but if you have Lebanese I'm gonna try my best 
Well, I grew this large Mexican sativa last year from my frozen seed collection. It has a rather mild, but good high. I have a lot of it, especially smaller buds. Cured well, it will last for years. Legally I can give it away to anyone in Oregon. I am not looking to give it away to anyone and everyone, per se. But... I have all this weed that I will likely never smoke, as I have a shyteload of new buds curing now 
Just sayin'...
Just sayin'...
I also have some friends in Europe looking to source some landrace Lebanese and South Indian ganja seeds for me. I hope they are successful in that endeavor.
Conradino23
Well-Known Member
That would be pretty nice 
2Crispy
Well-Known Member
good read
Re: Origins of the Species : history question***
My belief is that the golden era of weed in the late 1970s in Central California was created by Nixon, and paraquat spraying in Mexico. I am not aware of them spraying weed in Colombia at that time with paraquat. But after the Mexican paraquat spraying, Colombian became the main stream weed in central California. A shit load of Colombian was coming in to replace the Mexican that was prevalent previously. At that time there was a lot of local growing and breeding starting to happen in earnest in California. The emerging local (and cheap) sinsemilia seedless weed hit the local markets and we started buying it up. Also really cheap but really good Mexican sinsemillia weed from smaller plots in the central plateau region was becoming available (I got a lot of that from Morelos). Some of the most exotic manicured seedless buds came from central Mexico then. That to me was the golden era of marijuana. It was cheap, it was good, and it was available. And there was a wide variety. Hashish was also available there then from Lebanon through GIs at Ft Ord, and some crazy Jew in SF. Thai sticks were skinny and common up to about 1980 in that area (also through Ft Ord) with a sativa high, and then they became fat and narcotic and were supposedly dipped in hash oil. They just put me to sleep. Then the prices went through the roof for locally grown weed.
In the mid 70s we saw Colombian strains from 4 regions: Colombian Green from the west (what GHS calls Limon Verde), Punto Rojo (meaning red point) from the mountains to the west, Santa Marta, or original Colombian Gold from the southeast mountains, and lowland Colombian Red, or Punta Roja, from the central lowland north, which was similar if not identical to Panama Red. Panama used to be part of Colombia. Some consider Punta Roja to be slightly different than lowland Colombian Red. By the early 1980s it seemed that most Colombian weed was bricked lowland brown or dark gold, seemingly from fermenting the weed after harvest, and it was all narcotic and extremely seedy. The Colombians excelled in producing seeded and bricked fermented weed. Black Colombian I have read about being a particular type of Wacky Weed. One joint and you went bonkers. I suspect that the black came from the Manizales area and was fermented Colombian green. Others say that it was so resinous that it stifled itself to death and turned black before harvest.
Some of us do still have original Colombian seeds. I have an assortment. They all mature really late though, so I do not grow them here. I could force them to bloom early, but they also bloom long. Maybe start them indoors here in winter, size them up under lights, put them out in April and force them to start flowering, bloom them over the summer, and harvest them in August or Sept.? BTW: Many early potent strains had (and later crosses still have) Colombian strains in their genetics. So they are not lost, but woven into the early California and subsequent crosses. What made them different? Colombian strains were far more recent than the 1960s and 1970s Mexican strains. Most Mexican strains originated from Manila Hemp imported to the New World by the Spanish overlords as early as the 1500s from the Philippines. There are a lot of tales about where the Colombian strains came from. Most are legends and fairy tales though. Slaves were imported from Africa into Colombia, and there was a lot of trade in the Caribbean going back to Columbus times. Some speculate that Colombian strains originated from Africa. Others say Thailand. Maybe both, divided between east and west. Maybe genetic testing will solve the riddle.
**My question(s) 1. What in the world were those strains? Were they Colombian? (I remember 3 strains Chiba Chiba (gold) Red Colombian, and Black Colombian....all in '73/'74/'75)
2. What became of those strains? Are they extinct?
3. What made them so different? That potency was not approached until more modern Hydro creations came along
3. I had heard it was killed by paraquat, but I don't believe something that special would not have seed set back somewhere.
Thanks
My belief is that the golden era of weed in the late 1970s in Central California was created by Nixon, and paraquat spraying in Mexico. I am not aware of them spraying weed in Colombia at that time with paraquat. But after the Mexican paraquat spraying, Colombian became the main stream weed in central California. A shit load of Colombian was coming in to replace the Mexican that was prevalent previously. At that time there was a lot of local growing and breeding starting to happen in earnest in California. The emerging local (and cheap) sinsemilia seedless weed hit the local markets and we started buying it up. Also really cheap but really good Mexican sinsemillia weed from smaller plots in the central plateau region was becoming available (I got a lot of that from Morelos). Some of the most exotic manicured seedless buds came from central Mexico then. That to me was the golden era of marijuana. It was cheap, it was good, and it was available. And there was a wide variety. Hashish was also available there then from Lebanon through GIs at Ft Ord, and some crazy Jew in SF. Thai sticks were skinny and common up to about 1980 in that area (also through Ft Ord) with a sativa high, and then they became fat and narcotic and were supposedly dipped in hash oil. They just put me to sleep. Then the prices went through the roof for locally grown weed.
In the mid 70s we saw Colombian strains from 4 regions: Colombian Green from the west (what GHS calls Limon Verde), Punto Rojo (meaning red point) from the mountains to the west, Santa Marta, or original Colombian Gold from the southeast mountains, and lowland Colombian Red, or Punta Roja, from the central lowland north, which was similar if not identical to Panama Red. Panama used to be part of Colombia. Some consider Punta Roja to be slightly different than lowland Colombian Red. By the early 1980s it seemed that most Colombian weed was bricked lowland brown or dark gold, seemingly from fermenting the weed after harvest, and it was all narcotic and extremely seedy. The Colombians excelled in producing seeded and bricked fermented weed. Black Colombian I have read about being a particular type of Wacky Weed. One joint and you went bonkers. I suspect that the black came from the Manizales area and was fermented Colombian green. Others say that it was so resinous that it stifled itself to death and turned black before harvest.
Some of us do still have original Colombian seeds. I have an assortment. They all mature really late though, so I do not grow them here. I could force them to bloom early, but they also bloom long. Maybe start them indoors here in winter, size them up under lights, put them out in April and force them to start flowering, bloom them over the summer, and harvest them in August or Sept.? BTW: Many early potent strains had (and later crosses still have) Colombian strains in their genetics. So they are not lost, but woven into the early California and subsequent crosses. What made them different? Colombian strains were far more recent than the 1960s and 1970s Mexican strains. Most Mexican strains originated from Manila Hemp imported to the New World by the Spanish overlords as early as the 1500s from the Philippines. There are a lot of tales about where the Colombian strains came from. Most are legends and fairy tales though. Slaves were imported from Africa into Colombia, and there was a lot of trade in the Caribbean going back to Columbus times. Some speculate that Colombian strains originated from Africa. Others say Thailand. Maybe both, divided between east and west. Maybe genetic testing will solve the riddle.
Cheesecake
New Member
Amazing info regarding the cannabis plant, thanks for sharing!
Kaiser Wilhelm
Active Member
Hey Chan,
I agree about the Chinese being the origins in Cannabis and I also believe its the only real source of unmixed pure cannabis.
I have a personal collection of hanpicked Chinese seeds from the mountains of Beijing. I know nobody has these seeds as the place mountains is completely secure as its military. I have since come to Spain grown the weed and have displayed it at one of the most popular cannabis clubs for evidence.
Cheers
SuperSkunkBear
There is a certain group of people who's name I doubt I can use here, but who as a matter of historical fact brought civilization to many parts of the world, and who are commonly buried with cannabis. They are found in the origin myths of the Chinese, who's graves are found from the Tarim basin to the Russian steppe, who the Indians made their brahmans and Darius recalled as his ancestors. I doubt there is any real origin to wild cannabis, but a viable seeds from one of their graves may likely be the oldest selectively cultivated cannabis available. If not there, you could try similarly with the Scythians.
Cannabis domestication goes a lot farther back than recorded history into the neolithic period. Archeologists have found evidence of Cannabis pollen in pottery going back at least 8,000 years to both eastern Asia *and* in Europe. So Cannabis was blooming around humans and widely dispersed by then. If you follow the migration routes of humans and cultures after the end of the last ice age and at the locations of the early development of human agriculture (and pottery, copper use, etc) you wind up in the vicinity of the Eurasian Steppes. That is the genetic fork in the proverbial road for migrations of humans to Europe and to Asia and North America. That is also where Cannabis flourishes as a native species in the wild. Coincidence? Methinks not. Wheat was collected by the hunter-gatherers previous to 10,000 years ago in and previous to their known domestication in the Fertile Crescent. Rice was also collected by hunter-gatherers in China long before it was domesticated in a similar timeline. It is hard to believe that Cannabis would not also have been found, used and domesticated in the same time frame. While it may be that Cannabis was already dispersed throughout Eurasia after the end of the last ice age and independently domesticated by Asians and Europeans, I believe it is more likely that they share a common source and that was the Eurasian Stepps.
The Eurasian Steppes is also where I descend through, being in the yDNA R-1b haplogroup or clade, and R-U106 sub clade. My direct male line ancestors were woolly mammoth hunters 20,000 years ago at the glacial maximum in Siberia (in the R haplogroup). They became hunter-gatherers over time and settled in the Eurasian Steppes on the southwest side of the Caspian Sea by about 12,000 years ago at the end of the ice age (about when R-1b sub clade split from R). They then split off about 6,000 years ago and my ancestors migrated north of the Black Sea and into Europe (the M269 sub cade, and the most common sub clade of all modern European males). From eastern and central Europe my male line migrated into northern Europe 3-4,000 years ago (the U106 sub clade). My surname male ancestor came to North America about 1640 from England or Holland. He and many of my other ancestors from Europe brought hemp with them from Europe. I believe that my ancestors brought Cannabis with them all along the migration trail going back to when they lived in the Steppes, some 10-12,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age. My Dutch ancestors were great horticulturalists, and they had nurseries on Long Island, New Amsterdam in the 1600s. They grew hemp and they also grew tobacco on Long Island, where the epicenter of Dutch tobacco trade was located where the Navy Shipyards are now located in Brooklyn.
The Eurasian Steppes is also where I descend through, being in the yDNA R-1b haplogroup or clade, and R-U106 sub clade. My direct male line ancestors were woolly mammoth hunters 20,000 years ago at the glacial maximum in Siberia (in the R haplogroup). They became hunter-gatherers over time and settled in the Eurasian Steppes on the southwest side of the Caspian Sea by about 12,000 years ago at the end of the ice age (about when R-1b sub clade split from R). They then split off about 6,000 years ago and my ancestors migrated north of the Black Sea and into Europe (the M269 sub cade, and the most common sub clade of all modern European males). From eastern and central Europe my male line migrated into northern Europe 3-4,000 years ago (the U106 sub clade). My surname male ancestor came to North America about 1640 from England or Holland. He and many of my other ancestors from Europe brought hemp with them from Europe. I believe that my ancestors brought Cannabis with them all along the migration trail going back to when they lived in the Steppes, some 10-12,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age. My Dutch ancestors were great horticulturalists, and they had nurseries on Long Island, New Amsterdam in the 1600s. They grew hemp and they also grew tobacco on Long Island, where the epicenter of Dutch tobacco trade was located where the Navy Shipyards are now located in Brooklyn.
On the Fence
Well-Known Member
Great read. THanks.
It sure will be interesting to see what my unknown seeds from 77 develop into.
It sure will be interesting to see what my unknown seeds from 77 develop into.
Fredwak
Well-Known Member
I lived in the DC area and the Virgin isles at that time and remember a guy from NY talking about chiba chiba. We had been getting the Punta Roja for a while. Very hard red buds, lung expando weed like hash. The late 70s in The islands, gold smoke came up on the fruit boats from Columbia in 20lb brown paper hog feed bags, looked like it was compressed in a trash compacter, and had a few yellow ants in it. Sleepy smoke, not trippy like the lambsbread Jamaican the rastas preferred. Both smokes had small black seeds (I remember endlessly de-seeding it on the "rastaman vibration " album for dollar joints to sell to tourists) and were pretty potent for the times. In a couple years it was gone and I heard it was our paraquat and our drug war that eradicated these fine herbs.Re: Origins of the Species : history question***
Sometime around 1970 or so, Hashish ( red and green Leb's Nepalese and Ghanni) was the standard in the Philadelphia/ New York area. Weed tended to be brick stuff (usually crap) wrapped in colored paper, and shipped from Mexico. We didn't smoke much pot...very much preferring the hash.Then came the Jamacian...long colas, often harsh...but it worked pretty well. Weed went from 50bucks a quarter lb (15 or 20 an oz.) to 100 to 125. Next change came in '73 when one guy offered a Colombian bud. They were about thumbnail sized, bright gold, lots of tiny black seeds, and it was fantastic! Tasted like popcorn! It was called "Chiba Chiba" and it was a one and done....by the time I got back up to him...it was all gone never to return.
Soon we had a wonderful deep red product...also from Colombia. Same tiny black seeds, and fantastic smell, taste sensational buzz. That Red lasted most of the fall (1974 or 75 I think) The "Colombian" weed dominated the scene from there till the cocaine took over everything Colombian in the late 70's early 80's....and all things seemed to turn Mexican . Never again did we see anything like that one batch of Gold, or that larger batch of Red. We did see golds and reds (still do see Mex golds) but NOTHING like the first. They are the reason weed went from 20 bucks an ounce to 90 or 100.Until those two varieties, no one would even consider more than 25 or maybe 30 per oz.(Whacky weed from Panama was 30 bucks hahaha)
In hindsight, they paved the way for the sensi/homegrow movement. The same way that 5 buck gas helped make electric cars suddenly the fashion. They put REAL dollars into weed for the first time. Everyone wanted something THAT strong again...THAT tasty. And they were willing to pay for it. A couple years after they came and went, I saw the first Big Sur Homegrown, and then Big Bud (both around 100 per oz. as I remember) But never again anything like that GOLD or the REDS. [some late 70's Thai came close)
**My question(s) 1. What in the world were those strains? Were they Colombian? (I remember 3 strains Chiba Chiba (gold) Red Colombian, and Black Colombian....all in '73/'74/'75)
2. What became of those strains? Are they extinct?
3. What made them so different? That potency was not approached until more modern Hydro creations came along
3. I had heard it was killed by paraquat, but I don't believe something that special would not have seed set back somewhere.
Thanks
Fredwak
Well-Known Member
I would venture a guess that many, many migrant groups traveling through Asia into the americas had cannabis in their possession. Dates keep being pushed farther back with some Amazonian peoples sharing DNA with South Pacific Islanders going back over 13,000 years. Small world, even back then. Smile and stay stoneder.