OlderStoner - Indoor/Outdoor Grow

I'm about to take those FF nutes and throw all $150 plus worth of them into the trash. This weekend the white widow X which looks female was looking fine. Very green leaves all through it's height. I gave the plant about 1/2 gallon of 5.5 ph plain water, run off was 7.2. Later that night I gave it about 1/4 gallon of water that was 6.0 ph with 1/2 strength of the FF, week #6 regime.

So in 1 gallon of water, I mixed in 1 tsp of Tiger Bloom, 1/2 tbsp of Big Bloom and 1/4 tsp of Open Sesame. This morning when I moved the plant back under the HPS light for it's 12 hour session I noticed how yellow the very top leaves were turning. I took a picture of it but the HPS golden glow hides the yellowing. The yellowing looks very similar to what I saw and reported in post #22 when AG told me that he guessed it was a Mg shortage. If I'm not mistaken, Open Sesame contains a good dose of Mg. The FF mix has been applied to these plants before and each time there seems to be some kind negative reaction even though I'm only using it at 1/2 strength.

What on earth could I be doing wrong? I will post a picture tonight when I get it out of that HPS light and can see what's really showing.
 
I would not blame your choice in fertilizer yet, if your soils pH is too high you will lock out nutrients one way or another. you want pH 5.8 for hydroponic and soiless (peat moss and coco coir) and pH 6.5 for soil.

here is a nutrient availability chart

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I agree with you on that and the ph in the run off on this pot was 7.2 on Saturday morning. I did not test the run off again on Sunday morning when I fed it the 1/2 strength nute mix. But everything was looking good all last week and up to and until I added the nutes. The next morning now I notice this definite yellowing in the very top leaves of this one. I'm really nervous because it's almost for sure a female and I've had it in 12/12 for a little over a week now. I checked again this morning and it looks like I see pistils in there but it's just still not at the point where I can say for sure. I don't think the plant is going to croak but it just seems that after I add these FF nutes, even at only 1/2 strength, the plants start showing stress of some kind. Today at around mid-day I will run some plain water through it and check the ph of the run off again.
 
AfricanGrower said:
In my honest opinion, I still think using Fox Farm Trio (and solubles) at 1/2 Strength is STILL to stong at this point in the grow. Like I said, I am only NOW using 1/2 strength, 1 week into flower.

Good Luck ;)
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First off, Houston, we have pistils. X1, the tallest of all the plants at 29" with twin colas has finally revealed herself to me. And they say us old guys don't have what it takes anymore....:thumb:

The other terrific news is that I poured about 1/2 gallon of some plain 5.5 ph water through her container and then did a secret thing which I can only tell you about once I confirm some more things. Anyway, the yellowing I saw in the very top leaves yesterday has faded into a nice shade of green. It's still there but not as pronounced as it was 24 hours ago. I also noticed the leaves were drooping like it was drying out last night just before it went into darkness. I know that it could not possibly need water because it's received over 1-1/2 gallons of it in the last 72 hours. The pot is very heavy but it's been draining properly too. This morning the leaves looked all perked up and it's not something I'm worried about for the moment. And she's a girl. Now to keep her happy until the moment she surrenders her goodies to me.

The other X plant which is male, is outside and I will let it grow out there until I decide what to do with it.

All the other plants are still in veg under that 400 watt fluoro apparatus. They are looking fine, close nodes, nice green colors. The only thing that bothers me is that many of them have red streaks running up their stalks. I don't think this is a genetic thing. These are not scheduled to be watered heavily until later this week. I will give them a very week feeding and yes I will stick with the FF regime for now.

The clones are all doing well. Some of them are really stressed but there is new growth that is noticeable. These are only about 2-3 weeks old so I must give them more time. Especially now that X1 has sexed. The Cotton Candy plant is still the most aggressive of all of them. I have to move the lights up at least 1" every morning for her. And like all the other plants, this one has twin colas too. I will move that and the others into flowering in 2-3 more weeks. I really want to go for yield with this one.
 
Okay, this is a little confusing. I think X2 may be a morph. It definitely has balls (pollen sacks) but there also appear to be pistils. The best shots I could get with this camera still leave a lot to be desired. But if you look closely into this first one you will see at the top of the plant are what now look like pistils. These are white and not green like they have been for the past few days. Still there are definitely pollen sacks just below that as well. So the question becomes, is this one a true male or is it a hermie. And if it's a hermie, why did it happen. The other X that's been right there with it all along is definitely a female unless it hermies on me down the road. But right now only this one is showing the pollen sacks. I realize it's very early in the flowering. These both have been on 12/12 for about 10 days now and this one showed its pollen sacks only this past weekend and the other showed it's pistils so there was no longer any doubt only this morning. I'm keeping them separated no matter what.

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Here is another shot of the very top of this White Widow X plant. The pollen sacks are apparent. What's not so apparent are those pistils which would make this a hermie. In the past I've always gotten rid of male plants as soon as possible and not really studied their makeup as close as I'm doing this one. The top of this looks female, but then right there below it are the male pollen sacks. If it's a hermie, it won't be good for breeding will it?


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OK, so I'm 99.9% sure that the plant I call X2 has morphed. I have two clones which I took from it before this happened. Does this mean the clones will morph or may morph?
 
This depends on whether or not it was caused by genetics or stress. The only way to TRULY know is if you have all the right conditions dialed in from seedling AND then if it still turned into a hermie then you can blame genetics and this will be passed on to all clones taken from it. But in your case you did have some environmental stressors, so it could be either or. I would keep them and flower them. If both of these clones turn hermie on you then you can be sure it was hereditary.
 
If the cuttings were taking before it turned then there is still a chance it may have been stress induced. If you decide to keep them, know that this specific genome has a very low tolerance to stress which is something you may want to consider in the future. Overall I agree with King ;)
 
I'm inclined to believe both replies here. First, I agree with King John that it's probably a waste of time, effort and space to keep this one. And as AG said, the clones were taking well before it morphed. I think it's genetics. These two White Widow X's were never really showing bad stress like the others did. Instead they grew head and shoulders above all the rest. I transplanted them earlier than the others as well. And since they both received equal treatments then I would assume the other one would have morphed as well. Not that it had to, but I would think this leads to the conclusion it's genetics. And there are different number of leave fingers on the leaves of these two. The apparently strong female has leaves with nine fingers on them at the top. The morph only has seven fingered leaves so there is a definite difference in genes with these two.

The other White Widow feminized plants are still in veg and growing strong under the fluoros. But there are several of them which have those nasty looking red streaks up their main stalks. I don't think this is genetic but rather a nute problem of ph problem I'm having. The pots are still moist from the flushing these guys got now 2 weeks ago. I have feed and watered them very lightly in that time but this weekend I want to take them out for maintenance and examination. This will also give me time to build a table to place them on for their time under the fluoro apparatus as trying to get down so low to look at them is becoming tiresome. This table will have to have some beef to it because these pots are heavy and when I put all five of them up there it will have some serious weight to deal with.
 
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This is the one White Widow X I have left in flowering. She's pushing 32" in height now, from the dirt to her tops, not including the pot she's in. This one is 59 days since the seed was planted and she's been in flowering just under 2 weeks now. The bud sites are looking nice and so far no sign of morphing like the other one did. There is a slight bit of yellowing in her very top leaves which concerns me. I gave her 1/2 strength of the week 6 FF regime 5 days ago and only some plain water twice this week. She gets a light misting every night too right at lights out time.

The rest of the grow is still in veg. I will take all of them out over the weekend for maintenance and get some photo shots then. I wish I could identify what is causing those red streaks in the stalks of the these. Only the Cotton Candy is not showing any signs of this. The clones are slowly coming along as well. I think some of them are having trouble but I'm seeing growth in all of them except the one which I almost killed by overheating under the plastic dome in the sunshine the first day I took cuttings....DOH!

Oh what the heck, here is one more shot of the other White Widows under the fluoro rack. The clones are under there too.

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Okay, this is day 60 of the grow. There are good signs all around but enough bad signs to not become complacent. The plants are all getting their watering and feedings today. I'm using the week 3 of the FF regime but only 1/2 strength. Five of the seven plants are still in veg because I topped them about 3-4 weeks ago and I'm wanting them to grow back, which they are doing however slowly.

The big concern today for me is these red streaks in the white widow plants. This one is still under veg and while it's looking very healthy with nice big green leaves, it has these red streaks in it's main stalks and the stems of the leaves. I have watered this one today with the nute mix outlined above but I lowered the ph of the water to 3.5. I did this because the run off in all of these pots has been high in the past, first 7.8 then last weekend 7.5. I poured an entire gallon of this 3.5 ph nute water into the pot and waited 20 minutes for the run off to fill the catch pan I had below it. The run off measured 7.3. I was very dissappointed thinking that the 3.5 ph water would bring it down substantially to about the 6.5 level I'm looking for. The soil in this pot was the cheap $3.95 organic potting soil I bought at the local home store and mixed about 50/50 with top soil I also bought at the home store. Note that all future planting will be done with the Fox Farm Ocean Forest mix. I am trying to get the ph in these pots down, way down but they keep showing well above 7.0. I think this may be the cause of those red streaks. Something is being locked out.

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I have great news about the White Widow X. IF is a female and looking good under 12/12. There is a slight yellowing showing in the very top leaves which I'm concerned about. I watered it this morning with the week 7 of the FF regime, (sans the Beastie Bloom, both shops I visited did not have it in stock) and again 1/2 strength and I used 4.5 ph water. The soil in this pot was the same 50/50 mix as outlined above but the bags were bought at different times from the home store. About 3 weeks apart. The run off from this pot 6.5 ph which is exactly what I'm looking for in those other pots but can't seem to get it down even with 3.5 ph water. The buds on this baby are looking promising but still not swelling yet and no sign of trichomes. I have two clones of this one and both are doing great.

Should have more to report tomorrow.
 
Are the White Widow plants that are showing the red streaks in flowering?

If so the streaks could be due to a Phosphorous deficiency, but it is not showing any other signs from what I am reading. There are also cases I have seen where red streaks form from Nitrogen, and Magnesium deficiencies.

If they are still in veg don't completely base your concern on a deficiency though as it could also be a genetic trait. I have 2 plants in flower currently. One random bagseed and one indica dominant Bubblelicious. As soon as I put my Bubb into flower, red streaks started to appear FIRST, then the edges of my upper fan leaves started to cusp upwards. These were all signs of a Phosphorous deficiency. However my bagseed that hadn't gone into flowering yet had really prominent red streaks, BUT showed no other signs of deficiencies. I ruled out Phosphorous out, blaming genetics for the red streaks. Mind you both of these plants were being fed the same nutrient solution. The only difference was that the Bubb was more mature, and a flowering plant needs a lot more Phosphorous than a plant in vegetation.

Here are are pics of my red streaks. First one is the P deficient Bubb, the second is the genetic bagseed:

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Now about the yellowing of the top leaves, could you take a picture so I can have a better understanding. There are so many deficiencies out there that start with the 'yellowing of leaves'. For example a Nitrogen def will start to yellow the leaves from the bottom, a Sulfur and Mg def start from the NEW GROWTH, and Iron def can start towards the upper middle part of a plant. In my opinion, from the looks of your plants, there are no burnt tips. This indicates that you may be having a deficiency and not a lockout. A lockout is caused by TOO MUCH of one nutrient preventing the uptake of other key nutrients. This usually always is resulted by nute burn, BUT in your case I think otherwise. This COULD be the a reason for the yellowing on growth. My guess at this stage of the plants life would be a Mg deficiency, but without picture I cannot hold myself to that.


To comment on your pH. You should mix it to a pH of 6.5 going in, as that is the optimal range for plants to uptake nutrients. The pH going in is much more of a concern than the pH coming out at this point. Younger plants however, you would want the pH to be roughly in the same range in and out. A runoff pH of anything between 6.5-7.5 is really good in soil, so I wouldn't stress too much over this.
 
Thanks AG for your reply.

The White Widow plants with the red streaks are still in veg. I know this is a long veg time but recall that I topped all of these on 10/26 or a little over 2 weeks ago....darn it seems much longer than that. And I'm really trying to let them grow back before starting flowering. And they are indeed growing taller each day but it's slow going. I agree with you that the red streaks are most likely due to deficiency. That could be that I've really been skimping with the strength of the FF chemicals. Yesterday during their feedings I went with the same 1/2 strength mix but on two of them and the Cotton Candy I up'ed it to the full strength. I figure by now it's time to start turning on the program. In my timid approach I also added some plain 6.5 ph water to all of them after their nute mix was added but that meant that each pot got about 1-1/2 gallons. I let them drain all day outside in the sun though it was more partly cloudy and I noticed they were draining well. But when I lifted them to bring them back inside I almost got a hernia. These are not only big pots (12" dia x 16" tall) but I made the mistake of not mixing in any Perlite. These pots also contain that 50/50 mix of the cheap organic potting soil and the topsoil. I think this soil is what's causing the problem and the higher ph than desired.

That's good news on the ph level for soil. I'm shooting for 6.5 but no matter how low I go with the ph these pots seem determined to hold on to their higher ph levels.

I transplanted the clone from the female X1 which I took on 10/19 or almost 4 weeks ago. It was one of the ones I had just shoved into some potting soil with a little root hormone. This one now has special value because I know that it's going to be a female. It was in a tall Styrofoam cup and when I pulled out the dirt clump it was apparent this baby had been root bound in that container for 3+ weeks. So this time I put it into a larger pot using the FF Dark Ocean mix. And believe me, you can feel the difference in the weight of that soil compared to the cheap mix I made for the others. It's light, and easy to carry around and drainage is good. So this clone of X1 has a new home and is under the veg light with all the others.

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Now, on the yellowing of the top leaves of the X1 female. She has been in flowering for a little over 2 weeks now. She's also the only one under the 600 watt HPS lamp and she gets 12/12 with it. This photo shows what I'm talking about but bear in mind that the flash on my camera greatly exaggerated the amount yellowing. It's not as bad as this looks but it's noticeable and it's only in these very top leaves. This lovely female also grew another 2" in the last few days. She grew 1" just under the darkness last night.

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I built a sturdy table from some lumber I had left over from another project here at my home. I need to beef this thing up with some diagonal bracing because those pots are really heavy after watering. That will happen after I lug all these pots off the table later today. This table will make servicing much easier and will allow me to stop taking the pots outside. I noticed yesterday that there are too many prying eyes around. Time to take this thing into total stealth.

If you have a moment to look at my other post about the male vs morph, I think you can see that this other White Widow X is not a morph. It is indeed just a male. I am keeping it outside in a very stealth location and away from the female. And even though none of the pollen sacks have ruptured yet I took great pains to shower and change clothes after handling it and before handling the female. I know this thing is going to burst open any day now and I'm going to collect some pollen then destroy the male. The clones I took from this one will be destroyed as well.
 
>>> Now, on the yellowing of the top leaves of the X1 female. She has been in flowering for a little over 2 weeks now. She's also the only one under the 600 watt HPS lamp and she gets 12/12 with it. This photo shows what I'm talking about but bear in mind that the flash on my camera greatly exaggerated the amount yellowing. It's not as bad as this looks but it's noticeable and it's only in these very top leaves. This lovely female also grew another 2" in the last few days. She grew 1" just under the darkness last night.

Okay so by the looks of it you MAY be experiencing a Magnesium deficiency. Don't hold me to this UNTIL I can get some exact information from you.

Now I can't really tell by the pictures due to quality, but is the yellowing starting from the center of the leaf outward, or is it starting to yellow from the outer edges, inward?

Feel the affected leaves between your fingers. Are they dry and brittle when you rub them? Or do they feel sort of like glass?

Lastly, is this yellowing happening on all new growth of the plant, or is it only on the larger fan leaves towards the top?

If you can get me specific answers to these, I will have more accuracy in determining your deficiency ;)
 
AG, this is similar to the earlier posts where I had what you were diagnosing as a Mg deficiency. This yellowing is like you say spreading from the center of the leaves and working it's way outwards. The yellowing is only occurring in the top fan leaves. And I am also seeing this morning the slightest bit of dried out browning of the tips of almost all the leaves in the plant, like I've put too strong ferts. The pot is very moist right now because I gave it about 1 gallon of 6.5 ph water with 2 Tsp of Grow Big, 2 Tsp Tiger Bloom, 1 Tblsp Big Bloom. I was really hoping it handled this well because I would like to get on with the inducement of the full strength FF regime as this one is well into flowering. Run off was 6.5 ph. I'm using tap water but I let it sit in an open container for at least 48 hours before using it. I can tell you with the water in this area coming out of the taps at +8 ph getting the ph level right is the most time consuming part of the watering chores. Now, the yellowing was happening before I gave it the nute mix yesterday morning.
 
>>>This yellowing is like you say spreading from the center of the leaves and working it's way outwards. The yellowing is only occurring in the top fan leaves.

Then this might just be a Mg deficiency. I would get my hands on some CaMg supplement you can get at any hydroponics store. I would mix 5ml/g and wait to see if the condition will digress

>>>And I am also seeing this morning the slightest bit of dried out browning of the tips of almost all the leaves in the plant, like I've put too strong ferts.

This is exactly what is going on. Browning of leaf tips indicate a nutrient burn. Excess of another nutrient could be what is locking out Magnesium. I know I have said it MANY times before, but Older, I have you might just listen to me this time: Full strength Fox Farm nutrients WILL burn your plants AND lead to more problems. I have gone through this as well when I first started my own a couple of years back. I thought my plants could handle the recommended dosage on the label, and I ended up almost killing several plants from watering at full strength for a month or so. I am not trying to change your ways, as I know you have been growing WAY before my time (and much respect to you) BUT all I offer is helpful advice where I see fit, based on my personal experience!
 
AfricanGrower said:
...Full strength Fox Farm nutrients WILL burn your plants AND lead to more problems.... I am not trying to change your ways, as I know you have been growing WAY before my time (and much respect to you) BUT all I offer is helpful advice where I see fit, based on my personal experience!
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Don't worry my friend. I trust you 110% and I think you're absolutely right about full strength FF nutes. I added more plain water after feeding to dilute the mix thinking just this very thing. I have been using 1/2 strength on this female since the first fiasco but I did up the nutes yesterday. For the rest of this week they will only get plain water. And with these big pots which are still in veg, they won't need water for at least a week.

Okay speaking of the veg plants, here is where they stand. The White Widows which were grown from feminized seeds are all showing those red streaks. I did notice just now that the new growth at the top does not have these, but it could be just a matter of time before they appear there. In spite of this they are all growing, albeit slower, much slower than the X's did. They were topped four weeks ago, and with each of them starting at about 6" in height after topping so they all have twin colas. Here is where they all stand as of today:

Alexis = 17" ... the clone is 5-1/2"
Brenda = 14" ... the clone is 8" and looking very healthy in that FF Dark Ocean potting soil
Cindy = 15" ... the clone from this one is deceased. It never recovered from that baking it got from sitting in the direct sunlight under the clone dome for about 30 minutes.
Diane = 16" ... the clone is 5-1/2"

Cotton Candy = 23" ... clone #1 from is 6" tall, and the clones #2 and #3 are still in the clone dome. I noticed a root coming out of the bottom of one of the grow blocks just now. This one will be transplanted this week. I took these from way down near the bottom of the plant. Something tells me they will survive. This CC plant has proven very resilient and it too has twin colas like all the others.

I have one more clone from the female X in the clone dome, but do not see any roots yet. And I took this one from such a low place on the plant, I don't know if it will survive. But since I know this one is female it's worth the effort. The other clone from X2 was transplanted yesterday from it's root bound Styrofoam cup confines into a nice big 12" pot with FF Dark Ocean potting soil. It's about 6" tall as of today.

Also took the time today to cut some 2x lumber to make gusset reinforcements for that table. The way I see it with all those pots up there it must weigh more than 200 lbs total and I don't want to wake up one morning to find it collapsed. Those reinforcing gussets really did the job. There's no way that table is going to fail now and it makes servicing the plants so much easier. I have adjusted the hoisting chains on the light rack too so I now have more room to move it higher. I think I may end up starting the flowering of all these WW's under the fluoros. I figure at least 2 more weeks of veg before I start 12/12 on these. Hopefully this will also space out the harvest times so I will have plenty of time to start enjoying the X buds before these will be ready about 1-2 months later.

Now, a question about the Cotton Candy. Man, it is by far the healthiest looking plant out of the entire bunch. Deep, dark green leaves and it's very symmetrical in shape. There are no red veins and no signs of nute burns in the leaves. And I've basically feed and treated this one similar to all the others. The big difference I've noticed is that this plant has very broad leaves and only five fingers on the leaves. Whereas most of the other plants have seven leaves and the female X has nine fingers on most of it's fan leaves. Obviously a different strain which appears to be resistant to mistakes made by the grower (who could that be?). If the smoke from this one turns out great I'm going to be very glad I took those three clones from it. And I may take one, maybe two more before I turn this one over to 12/12. It looks like a good strain to have in the barn.
 
>>>Now, a question about the Cotton Candy. The big difference I've noticed is that this plant has very broad leaves and only five fingers on the leaves. Whereas most of the other plants have seven leaves and the female X has nine fingers on most of it's fan leaves.

Being that the WW and the CC are both Sativa dominant, the CC is showing signs of strong Indica characteristics. Fat leaves, less fingers, etc. Indicas are very well known for their resilience and vigorous growth. They also have a much quicker harvest time than Sativas. In your case you might a little bit more Indica in your Cotton Candy than what is advertised as being a Sativa dominant strain. This is goo. Sativa's, from my experience require MUCH more maintenance and care, and what do you get out of all of that? Some potent heady nugs! I by far enjoy the head high of a Sativa, but I also enjoy the ease of growing Indica dominant plants (couchlock high)

>>>The White Widows which were grown from feminized seeds are all showing those red streaks. I did notice just now that the new growth at the top does not have these, but it could be just a matter of time before they appear there.

Are all these the same WW plants that have the pale yellowing in the upper new growth? Are any of the fan leaves curling upwards like this:

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