Nutrient Recipes, Formulas, Guidelines, Implementations and Thoughts

WutUpCuuuz said:
Hello all:

I have been searching and searching for a way to measure the ppm of individual nutrients (n, p, k, etc.) in runoff water. Unfortunately, I haven't been successful. At first I was hoping for something digital that could isolate individual nutrients and give me an accurate measurement of them. After a LOT of searching I'm thinking I won't find that (at least not cost-efficient), so I'm thinking maybe I could find some test strips/solutions that could give me a somewhat accurate reading. I'm not giving up on my initial goal though and was wondering if anyone here could point me in the right direction.
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This stuff has gone well over my head. I was just scanning for simple ideas. Having said that I remember we use to do something called a sludge test in chemistry class many moons ago. You are given a vial of mystery sludge and your job is to identify what is in it. If you've got the runoff water why can't you separate the elements that you are looking for and then measure them?
 
I think our desires in this area have exceeded our technology and is why we change our reservoirs every 7-10 days, so as to replenish elements consumed while also discarding the elements not consumed. I recently converted from using GH for 3+ years to mixing my own concentrates with Jack's Hydro 5-12-26 and various 2 element components. When taking this leap, I delved much deeper into NPK, and ratios one to others, more than I ever did. In my journey, I finally learned how to use Hydro Buddy to literally plot out my own feed charts using the materials I have listed. I have 6 basic charts that I believe map out the needs of cannabis at every stage of growth while catering to their needs according to age, and all elements begin in safe ranges and preferred ratios. I've collected most of this knowledge from RIU, but thankfully now gleaned some from my home forum 420. Thank you to the OP for clearing up the confusion I had as to how to determine the density (W/V%) of liquid nutes currently on the market. This will help me reverse engineer existing brands to observe the ratios and EC of their line. Granted, I know that most brands will require dilution in my factoring, I just want to better understand the ranges to verify the list I have for macros and secondaries (micros). Here are my feed charts currently with elemental ppm and final EC. I find that my mixes do not require dilution except for early veg for the obvious reason.
Veg and Trans.JPG
Bloom.JPG


I would like to link to the 6 products I use, but I don't want to violate 420's policies, so I'll plainly say that I got most components from >customhydronutrients<. Jack's A (5-12-26) needs to be purchased from >jacksnutrients<. I saw some 25lb bags on Amazon, but I started with the 1kg sack so I can try it out. Oh, here are the ranges I have in my notes and based upon feedback I received from my source (a grower on RIU), I compiled the pictured charts.

Veg Ranges
N 110 - 120
P 30 - 40
K 120 - 130
Ca 80 - 90
Mg 40 - 50
Fe 1.3 - 2

Bloom Ranges
N 65 - 90 (never less than half of K)
P 40 - 65
K 130 - 150 (130 max for coco)
Ca 65 - 90
Mg 40 - 50
Fe 1.5 - 2

When comparing the above ranges to lines like GH I notice the EC of those lines to be upwards of 2.3 which would likely translate to about 1800 TDS @ .5 CF. Insanely high for cannabis and would likely kill every plant that was given those strengths. So far, My Triple Cheese has maintained perfect shades of green and no visible signs of over or under ferting. Like the OP, I too hope to add info into the universe with hopes that it'll help the next grower, even years down the road as this thread has done for me.
 
prankster said:
Can anybody tell me more about this dilution test that he is doing?
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I searched the thread for "dilution test" and you're the only one that mentioned it. Can you quote the post that you're speaking about?
 
GreatLife4All said:
I

In the spreadsheets I have Elemental PPMs as opposed to actual PPMs. There is a major difference between the two and if you use these recommendations and then expect your TDS meter to agree with this information - it will be way off.

The major reason for this difference are mineral ions such as Ca, Iron, and Magnesium. When they are in solution, they exist as CA++, Fe++ or Fe+++, and Mg++. So one elemental particle has the electrical conductivity of two particles. Iron is even worse as it is a mixture of ++ and +++ whose exact composition depends on where they source the iron. To complete the example, if a nutrient manufacturer dissolves the same quantity of Ammonium Nitrate and Calcium Nitrate in two different nutrient solutions, the EC of the Calcium Nitrate solution would be approximately twice as high - even though the elemental PPMs would be the same.

The lesson, you can't use these numbers to predict the EC or PPMs of your nutrient solution... though the elemental PPMs are obviously related to it. The only way to accurately predict EC/PPM is to use a dilution test.
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Anyway. Would this be feasible? Before I start buying expensive chemicals! This is just a first try calculating a mixture. Probably full of mistakes. But hey. Its a start.


Fert1.png
 
prankster said:
Anyway. Would this be feasible? Before I start buying expensive chemicals! This is just a first try calculating a mixture. Probably full of mistakes. But hey. Its a start.


Fert1.png
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Perhaps my approach isn't ideal as some of the concepts this thread attempted to discuss, but it went dormant mad long ago and I've since started similar thread linked in my signature about making your own formulations using Hydro Buddy and nutrient salts. I'd be lying if I told you I had it all figured out, but I've been feeling around in the darkness now for maybe about 2 years on that thread and I've shared every experience I've had there, so I suggest checking it out. FWIW, by my estimation, the 2nd block of that diagram you posted is near what Megacrop with Calmag offers, plus is also nearest what numbers I'm running.
 
Skybound said:
Perhaps my approach isn't ideal as some of the concepts this thread attempted to discuss, but it went dormant mad long ago and I've since started similar thread linked in my signature about making your own formulations using Hydro Buddy and nutrient salts. I'd be lying if I told you I had it all figured out, but I've been feeling around in the darkness now for maybe about 2 years on that thread and I've shared every experience I've had there, so I suggest checking it out. FWIW, by my estimation, the 2nd block of that diagram you posted is near what Megacrop with Calmag offers, plus is also nearest what numbers I'm running.
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Im just playing with numbers. Its something I do when im stoned. Like obsessed. This is based on the first posts in this topic on the rsipe given by some guy named Lothar. The original is a 3 part AN/GH recipe for dripping.

So all of this have to be split up. Which is better because there are some nasty chemicals in there. Like Phosphoric acid and stuff.

But small amounts of salts can give big amount of fertilizer. Its nice to play with the numbers a littlebit. I used some linear algebra to get these numbers.

But to make it into something that is really workable it probably needs a lot more tweaking.
 
prankster said:
Another factor is NH4+. Should keep this low when used in low cec mediums since it causes defiencies by taking spare soil spots of other nutrient cations.
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Megacrop uses 5% of N as NH4. I went all the way up to 10% for a while, but decided to go back to 5%. I think 7 or 8% would be good, but never wanted to risk quality or yields to experiment again.
 
GreatLife4All said:
I have a spreadsheet that I use to analyze the elemental composition of nutrient mixes - it comes in very handy when comparing products that you may want to purchase. It helps to see the overall effects of a complicated nutrient program... if you will.

I realized the other day that I have a spreadsheet for each of the nutrient recipes from the famous growers of years past - and from many different manufacturers. I have analyzed them to see what type of system I should be running. It is my way of breaking down what they do so that I can better understand things.

As I get time, I will take the information out of the spreadsheets, print it to an image, and then upload the images. I am not allowed to post excel spreadsheets as that has been deemed dangerous by the powers to be - so you will have to accept this format for information exchange

I will post the charts and tables, each in their own separate post, so that they will be well organized.

All of these will include the same schedule. A week for seed germination. Two weeks for being a seedling. Followed by a 5 week veg period, and finally a 9 week flowering schedule. This is my typical schedule that I run for germinating seeds - though many plants don't need this long in veg. I follow manufacturer recommendations for how to extend their (typical) 7 week grow. I don't think that matters as it gives a good outline for just about any grow.

In the spreadsheets I have Elemental PPMs as opposed to actual PPMs. There is a major difference between the two and if you use these recommendations and then expect your TDS meter to agree with this information - it will be way off.

The major reason for this difference are mineral ions such as Ca, Iron, and Magnesium. When they are in solution, they exist as CA++, Fe++ or Fe+++, and Mg++. So one elemental particle has the electrical conductivity of two particles. Iron is even worse as it is a mixture of ++ and +++ whose exact composition depends on where they source the iron. To complete the example, if a nutrient manufacturer dissolves the same quantity of Ammonium Nitrate and Calcium Nitrate in two different nutrient solutions, the EC of the Calcium Nitrate solution would be approximately twice as high - even though the elemental PPMs would be the same.

The lesson, you can't use these numbers to predict the EC or PPMs of your nutrient solution... though the elemental PPMs are obviously related to it. The only way to accurately predict EC/PPM is to use a dilution test.

Please Note: This is my second attempt on this type of thread - you couldn't read the information presented in the first, which makes it worthless, IMO. I have re-formatted everything and it looks much better. Now that I have a process - I will gather everything into this thread.

And thank you to 420 staff for helping me on this... It is appreciated. Hopefully a member will benefit one of these days...
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Hey Man, don't even know if you are still around or not, but this is AMAZING info you just shared. Can't thank you enough...
 
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