November Initiative Tests A Big Voting Block: Marijuana Smokers

[Lemon Paradise]

I am reading all this .And granted this is not the Holy grail of bud laws it is
a start .One thing i noticed most of you people talking are from med states
now.You talk about the Law busting you for this and that if it passes hell
were i am sitting having a sprout will get you put in jail.

I would love to see this pass for the simple reason other states may
see some light and ease up.

And tell me WHAT rights at all do most of the states have now none !!
Even in med states you still have very limited rights that could be crushed
any time .It has to start some place .The haters are not going to let a bill
pass that is perfect .But if it does pass and normal people see that the evil
weed smokers are not what they been told .The laws could be changed for
the better .Just my view .

Trust me i see the bud on the screen from there and get hungry.LOL
weed cost here for kiler bud is crazy if you can get it.

I agree with you, we gotta start somewhere, and I am in the same boat as you..

well,, maybe not the same boat.. lol,, 100 fine for 1oz, but I don't know about the girls,, I am sue I get in trouble big time for them...



oh,, now to be totally off topic.. (sorry) you just joined, 6 posts and 300+ credits already!!!???!! man,, I feel like I got mugged...

 

[bigjake]

Thanks.

Here in this fine city the council passed some bullshit law .If you have
even a roach you are to spend a night in jail.dont seem to be that bad as
the crack heads are shooting each other faster than the police can
keep up.But thats why i moved to the country.

the state law is only a ticket up to a 0.

 

[Ganjarden]

This is a great discussion I'm sorry if I seem to get a little heated. My passion kinda takes over at times.

I say chill. I'm not against corporations. Hell, I work for one. I am against corporations that have shown time and time again to enact legal yet unethical practices in hopes of turning bigger profits. Business is business and there's a right way to do it and then there's the successful way to do it. I'll admit right now that my blurp on Corporate tobacco buying up land in Ukia and Mendo is heresy, but take a look at the purchase trends and property value of places in Mendocino county. I'm sure it will raise an eyebrow or two as some areas are experiencing a 125% jump in land purchases from a year ago today and over 40% increases in property value. That could only mean one thing; land is getting scarce up there in a short amount of time. Google Trulia and look it up.

Now, some of you wonder why a grower charges so much for a bit of MJ? Well that's all relative isn't it? I could walk into my dispensary and pay $20 US for 1/8. Is that really expensive to you? Sure there are dispensaries that sell their medication for ridiculous amounts of money but how long do they stick around? Please define cost of growing for me as well. Do you mean the growing equipment? The growing risks? The fertilizers? How about the cost of water? Transportation costs? Is labor a factor? How about electricity? Is it wrong for a grower to incorporate these into their cost? Unfortunately, under this initiative, the definition of commercial will be derived from the size of the grow and not the price (if any) it sells for.

Ok I understand your points and big corporations only looking to make more money by any means necessary I completely agree with. My utopian thought for cali would be the majority of cannabis grown would be by the people already growing some of the greatest bud in the world. Which they already are now just completely legal. Will everyone being able to get legal sadly not but the people who really try the majority will succeed who put in the time and effort. Now about people buying land out there. Is there any direct connection? I have no idea but like you I am thinking a yes. I'd love to buy land out there to start my own small cannabis business if I had the means. Well if I'd have the means I'd already be there.

Now with the respect of growing I only know what I have done myself. Which sadly is on hiatus right now. It cost me a $1000 to intially start up. Lights, fans, nutes, soil, and pots. Electricity, nutes,water and soil replacement rough estimate would be about $100 a month. I know back in 2007 my electricity went up $50 with the grow but unsure with the prices now. The first grow cost me 12 dollars a gram since I only managed a qp and including start up. After start up is taken out. It's 3.50 a gram. Now that is a 4 month cycle starting from seed. Had I used clones and had only 2 months thats a $1.38. If I got the 1 gram to 1 watt ratio that is the great ratio, growers seem to strive for. 4 months including all start up costs would only cost me $3.16 a gram. No start up costs with 2 month harvest cycle .45 a gram. That's 12.85 an ounce. Outdoors would be even cheaper. Yes labor, transportation and all of that adds cost but still the cheap 20 an 1/8 is a 250% price increase and I would suspect the quaility of the home grown would be far better than the 20 an eighth. I would love to know the average price of all dispensaries. I think that would be some useful info concerning this. Now with regards to the risks, prohibition creates more of those by inflating the price so high. Now if the prices drops there goes the money incentive plus who's going to by from a dealer when you can go to a store? Sadly I dont think people will ever stop stealing. That is the world we live in.

As far as fear from Federal prosecution stands, yeah, I'd be scared. If I were a medicinal grower forced to commercial status under this initiative due to the size of my garden, how much easier would it be for the DEA to find me? What about potential thieves? Despite legalization, there will still be those who will take from others what they desire by force. Sadly this is the reality. Soul, I have not heard of these scams and quite frankly it disgusts me. It's little better than human trafficking just to up your legal growing limit. I will definitely inquire more about this, but could you be a friend and point the way?

Now about Federal law and it's validity in our 50 states; is Federal law concerning cannabis really moot? If so why is Eddy Lep in prison? What about the numerous DEA raids on medical dispensaries in CA? Surely, despite our opinions they have some merit still. Am I right to assume this?

As far federal law stand I don't think it's moot at all. They will be fighting, kicking, and screaming however legalization passes but this is how prohibition was repelled 70 years ago. Majorities in states, county, and cities standing up and saying we are not going to take it any more. I totally feel for you about worrying about the federal raids and what not still happening but this will have to opportunity to truly end prohibition in cali. The feds simply do not have the resources to enforce federal law in the whole state. Police offers are to enforce city and state laws. Not federal. This will open the dialogue so widely in US politics and the world that change will happen at the federal level. This is a chance to change the world. If I alone could change this for the US I would give my life for people to be free to use this wonderful plant. Sacrifices are something that change the world.


Growing vertical in a 5x5 is brilliant. Wish I thought of that one. lol

 

[Lemon Paradise]

Growing vertical in a 5x5 is brilliant. Wish I thought of that one. lol

yay.. 2 good ideas for me..

thanks Ganjarden.. (for the longest time I thought your name was ganjagarden,, lol,, funny what the mind will do when you don't fully pay attention)

FlyMolo.. how did your meeting turn out?

I was thinking more about the consulting thing,, offtopic:also watched back to school this weekend,, great old movie)

so there is the scene in the movie, business class, and the teacher is talking about starting up a widget factory, and every time Rodney Dangerfield say what build, lease at so much a sq ft,, etc, or what about the zoning costs, garbage etc.. it just showed the total disconnect between classroom and real world.. :focus:

so, if this passes, there will be 1 million newbie going to oaksterdam university and learning to grow,,, some will be good others will not.. some will have the book smarts, and totally fail, because they didn't factor something in, or it did not go according to the book. (my son is a perfect example,, very smart, honors classes, honor roll without trying,, but 0, zilch, nada, nothing, in the way of common sense, the absolute dumbest smart kid I ever met)

but the medical growers now, the caregivers, and the ones with real world experience, could open a business to teach the recreational grower, you could even turn a profit on the equipment slaes, design of the room, then maybe weekly visits/consulting sessions to ensure they have success...

a grow room engineer, and growing consultant/trainer,, could be lucrative career, and you would be teaching how to grow this wonderful plant...



but, there will always be some people that cannot grow,, that will fail miserably,, and they can go buy the commercial dirt weed from RJR

 

[SnowBender]

How are you supposed to retain any breeding stock, veg room or moms in a 5x5? If we are repealing prohibition, users should be allowed the room to breed their own too.
Shoot for some growers a single plant wont fit in a 5x5.
What if you are a recreational user that is in a wheel chair? 5x5 leaves no room for an isle wide enough to roll a chair through. Seems like a case for discrimination under equal access law....


And can I grow in a 5'x5'x50' tall multilevel scaffold/cage outside? Tower of weed!

 

[Ganjarden]

thanks Ganjarden.. (for the longest time I thought your name was ganjagarden,, lol,, funny what the mind will do when you don't fully pay attention)

Yeah it's a combo of the two words. lol I was trying to be orginal.

How are you supposed to retain any breeding stock, veg room or moms in a 5x5? If we are repealing prohibition, users should be allowed the room to breed their own too.
Shoot for some growers a single plant wont fit in a 5x5.
What if you are a recreational user that is in a wheel chair? 5x5 leaves no room for an isle wide enough to roll a chair through. Seems like a case for discrimination under equal access law....


And can I grow in a 5'x5'x50' tall multilevel scaffold/cage outside? Tower of weed!

I figure you can have 2 separate rooms. Like one veg and one flower as long as they don't exceed the 25 square feet. It doesn't say anything but 5x5 so that is up to interpretation.

When you talk about breeding you can do that in small scale but to do it properly you need thousands of plants so you would never be able to do it in 5x5. I've seen plants that could take up an entire 10x10 foot space but this initiative is for personal uses. A plant that big could keep me supplied for years. lol I've averaged out how much I smoke and it's about 3/4 a lb a year. I feel you with people in wheel chairs and room to get around the plants. A simple fix for that is to have the pots on wheels so you can move them any which way to get to all of them.

As far as the tower of weed I don't see why not but again that is open to interpretation. The initiative only specifies 5x5 not 5x5x? so it should be interesting.

Again this initiative is not perfect but it's far better than any of the alternatives. Like jail time.

 

[SnowBender]

Thousands of plants for breeding stock sure sounds like ending prohibition to me.

It should be legit to hold and grow a two year supply every year, be it recreational or medical. If you grow outside, you need backup stash to cover you till next years harvest in the event of crop failure. Of course you'd donate the extra after two consecutive successful years.

 

[FlyMolo]

Sorry folks! Work has been killer. My meeting...sucked. I brought up the idea of folks having their own 5x5 garden and having someone like me tend to it was not well received. They were worried about the costs of maintenance such as electricity, the space as well as security. Security by far was their biggest concern. I tried to explain to them that legalization would mean that just about anybody can grow it legally so violence regarding MJ should be reduced. Ironically, one of the patients is a former LEO who informed the group that most of the violent crimes regarding MJ are perpetrated by teenagers and young adults which is a demographic that would could still not legally ingest marijuana.

yay.. 2 good ideas for me..

thanks Ganjarden.. (for the longest time I thought your name was ganjagarden,, lol,, funny what the mind will do when you don't fully pay attention)

FlyMolo.. how did your meeting turn out?

I was thinking more about the consulting thing,, offtopic:also watched back to school this weekend,, great old movie)

so there is the scene in the movie, business class, and the teacher is talking about starting up a widget factory, and every time Rodney Dangerfield say what build, lease at so much a sq ft,, etc, or what about the zoning costs, garbage etc.. it just showed the total disconnect between classroom and real world.. :focus:

so, if this passes, there will be 1 million newbie going to oaksterdam university and learning to grow,,, some will be good others will not.. some will have the book smarts, and totally fail, because they didn't factor something in, or it did not go according to the book. (my son is a perfect example,, very smart, honors classes, honor roll without trying,, but 0, zilch, nada, nothing, in the way of common sense, the absolute dumbest smart kid I ever met)

but the medical growers now, the caregivers, and the ones with real world experience, could open a business to teach the recreational grower, you could even turn a profit on the equipment slaes, design of the room, then maybe weekly visits/consulting sessions to ensure they have success...

a grow room engineer, and growing consultant/trainer,, could be lucrative career, and you would be teaching how to grow this wonderful plant...



but, there will always be some people that cannot grow,, that will fail miserably,, and they can go buy the commercial dirt weed from RJR

 

[Lemon Paradise]

Sorry folks! Work has been killer. My meeting...sucked. I brought up the idea of folks having their own 5x5 garden and having someone like me tend to it was not well received. They were worried about the costs of maintenance such as electricity, the space as well as security. Security by far was their biggest concern. I tried to explain to them that legalization would mean that just about anybody can grow it legally so violence regarding MJ should be reduced. Ironically, one of the patients is a former LEO who informed the group that most of the violent crimes regarding MJ are perpetrated by teenagers and young adults which is a demographic that would could still not legally ingest marijuana.

Hey FlyMolo, sorry to hear it was not well received. I suppose security is an issue, but it will always be. I remember when I could just leave my door unlocked, my crap as a kid all over the yard and driveway, no cares. Now, bikes are locked, all yard stuff put away, hell even the propane tank is on a chain since my last one walked away (yes, someone disconnected the tank from the grill and stole it) So, unfortunately, the society we live in, security will be an ever increasing part of daily life.

I suppose a med patient, especially if physically impaired/disabled, would be hard to tend to growing, security etc.. as for electricity,, etc,, it would be far less than the cost of meds from the dispensary,,

I think the consulting angle would be better if recreational use passes, as the recreational user would be more physically able to tend to the garden and provide security for themselves..

heck, security consulting could be another aspect of your consulting business... man, if this passes, I mifght have to move to CA,, could be a huge business helping people grow for their own recreational weed..

 

[markscastle]

I`m still voting No in November! There are enough votes of no now to all but insure this TC2010 will fail. It was only prodicted to have a very narrow margin in the first place.Maybe we should all start thinking how we could modify this bill for next time so it can enjoy more even support? Try much less `control,regulation,and taxes.` Ha Ha Ha ! next time around maybe include 18-20year olds as they also vote. Exclude all but sales taxes. And don`t make two new laws that put people behind bars! Allow more grow room like 100 sq. ft. per person ,not per property! Also allow smaller growers to sell extra to licenced outlets and clubs.Override local goverments zoning laws by making it a state issue of marijuana zoning and prohibit outdoor grow areas near schools ,churches and voting booths by 100 ft.

I`m sure you will try to put your spin on keeping TC 2010 alive but as it`s written to many people have conserns and it just isn`t going to pass. Better to try to find a middle ground and be united next time around don`t you think?

 

[Lemon Paradise]

I`m still voting No in November! There are enough votes of no now to all but insure this TC2010 will fail.

that is unfortunate.. It would/is a starting point. May not have been perfect, but far better than what we all have now.
unfortunately alot of people are scared of losing their underground income

It was only prodicted to have a very narrow margin in the first place.Maybe we should all start thinking how we could modify this bill for next time so it can enjoy more even support? Try much less `control,regulation,and taxes.`

Any recreational substance should/will be regulated and controlled. Should 14 yr olds be allowed to smoke butts? how about knocking back a few shots? Should people be allowed to smoke butts and drink alcohol anywhere they want? What about my right to breath smoke-free air (cig smoke that is,, I don't mind second hand pot smoke..lol but that is me,, others have rights too)
Plus, the revenue for towns, citys, gov't is what will allow it to become legal, eventually... money is the grease that makes the world go round

Ha Ha Ha ! next time around maybe include 18-20year olds as they also vote.

When I was 18 I used to think, why can I vote, goto war and die for my country, but not buy a beer? Now that I am older, I can see how stupid I was at that age,,, I did some real stupid things (both legal and illegal) as a teenager, so I tend to see the point of having 21 age limit on alcohol. I also see other countries where drinking age is not enforced, and that society does not have the alcohol problem we do in the US, because it is taboo, kids want it more,, if it is avail, then no big deal,, not as appealing.. however that is a different argument for a different time..

Alcohol is limited to 21 and older right now, no matter what you feel about it, and for the average person to consider it recreationally, then I would think the same limits would have to be in place

Exclude all but sales taxes.

so, are there no other taxes on tobacco and alcohol, besides sales taxes..?
Weed may be safer than alcohol and tobacco, but will be considered the same for recreational purposes, and to be taken seriously, it would have to be taxed. Although, it still would be less expensive than what people pay now...

And don`t make two new laws that put people behind bars!

It does not create 2 felonies like you state in countless posts.. for minors, it is the same as it is now,, and if you supply a minor, I have no problem with you being arested and charged with felonies

Allow more grow room like 100 sq. ft. per person ,not per property!

a little more space would be nice, but it is also per residence,, so a multi unit dwelling could have separate grow areas in each residence,,, 5x5 is a little restrictive.. but with a scrog and planning, you could easily supply yourself and spouse/partner with weed in a 5x5 area

Also allow smaller growers to sell extra to licenced outlets and clubs.Override local goverments zoning laws by making it a state issue of marijuana zoning and prohibit outdoor grow areas near schools ,churches and voting booths by 100 ft.

I agree that outdoor growing by schools should be prohibited.. is it not in the bill? And many states allow local cities to tailor their own ordinences, etc.. there are many dry counties out there.. so what is the difference... local municipalities should have some control over what happens in their borders..

I`m sure you will try to put your spin on keeping TC 2010 alive but as it`s written to many people have conserns and it just isn`t going to pass. Better to try to find a middle ground and be united next time around don`t you think?

there will never be a law that will please everyone. This is a great start, and if it fails, then the prohibitionists wil be able to claim a moral superiority and that America has spoken against the 'evil' weed'' blah blah blah...

This is a great sarting point,, not perfect, but better than it is now, and if it fails, it will be along time before another vote comes up again. If I lived in CA,, I would definately vote yes..

 

[markscastle]

I live in California and I don`t sell marijuana,I`m still going to vote No in November! This Tax,Control,and Regulate proposed law is just wrong all the way around. Almost anyone can have,grow any amount with a doctors recomendation. It`s so easy anyone can get one that is 18 yrs old( or under with a parents permission). We just don`t need any Taxes, Regulation,or Controls by the Goverment! We just don`t need this law, it is born of greed and evil ! Big money has been spent to try to confuse us into thinking we need it and it`s our only choise,`It`s a step in the right direction`,`We won`t be able to pass any other law if this one fails`,It`s not perfect but it`s a start,ect.,ect.,ect., Holy Balongna if that ain`t phony! Not even the writer of prop 215 is for this messed up law!

 

[markscastle]

Here`s an idea. If med clubs are non prophet and servicing the ill should they be allowed to keep there non prophet statis if they start selling marijuana for recreational use? I think not! Lets let them also start paying much more of there share of taxes and then we can pass more laws to `Regulate and Control` them also,after all they would be selling marijuana for recreational use so why should they get a brake? What`s good for the goose...

 

[TorturedSoul]

I live in California and I don`t sell marijuana,

Although you admittedly market seeds.

Almost anyone can have,grow any amount with a doctors recomendation. It`s so easy anyone can get one that is 18 yrs old( or under with a parents permission).

Thank you for bringing up yet another good thing that could happen because of this legislation: The rampant and outrageous fraud involved in the medical marijuana industry could well get reigned in at some point in the foreseeable future. The whole concept of cannabis for legitimate medicinal use was a great idea - on paper. But it has become, as you observed, a sham in which almost anyone that wants to become a consumer can get a "medical" card. Which has contributed in no small part to the reasons that some medical users/growers get harassed or busted. Looking at it in an objective fashion, one cannot entirely fault the cops for putting the hairy eyeball on growers who have medical cards when most everyone that wishes to grow/consume for recreational uses... has bought a card. And, like many medicines, it has therefore been priced out of reach of many of the very people who need it most - the poor (both working and non-) SICK/ILL people!

We just don`t need any Taxes, Regulation,or Controls by the Goverment!

No doubt, man. Let the entire state go COMPLETELY bankrupt. Maybe it will slink off into the ocean from shame. No... That's probably not going to happen.

Let the politicos in DC shovel a few trillion dollars (that was and will be collected from the taxpayer base of ALL states) at California instead of (rightfully) having the citizens of California cover the debt/operating costs of California. No, hopefully that won't happen.

Heavily tax cannabis that is sold for (the intended use of) medicine? If that ever happens, I hope that the state government has a real fight on its hands - one in which they're tarred, feathered, and ran right off of the continental shelf!

Tax food sales so that the poor are the ones who spend the largest percentage of their incomes on supporting the state? No, that idea doesn't exactly give me warm & fuzzy feelings either.

Hmm. Tax a product that is used for RECREATIONAL purposes so that people can choose whether or not they wish to pay the tax by choosing whether or not they wish to purchase what is (for those other than legitimate medicinal users) a non-necessity. <DING DING> We have a winner!

Big money has been spent

Oh? Which "big money" entities have done so and how much? Sources?

`It`s a step in the right direction`

Unarguably true.

`We won`t be able to pass any other law if this one fails`

I agree with you that this one is false. Sometimes there is a bit of a bounce-back affect where it then takes a couple (or several) years, but also sometimes there is another strong attempt to pass any given bit of legislation soon after.

It`s not perfect but it`s a start

Unaarguably true - but also stating much the same as the first statement, so I don't give the pro-initiative side and extra points for making it.

From reading the language of the initiative itself, it does appear that the authors have attempted to word it in a fashion that will provide an avenue for future improvements.

Holy Balongna

I'm for religious freedom as much as the next guy, but that's more... "free" than most that I've heard. Do they feed you or fast you?

that ain`t phony!

Agreed, 100%.

Not even the writer of prop 215 is for this messed up law!

Yeah, about that. You'll find a lot of time when dealing with the introduction of new laws that are even tangentially associated with the existing ones that the authors/proponents of the prior ones aren't big supporters of the proposed ones. Cats seem to be territorial as well.

But out of curiosity, what is the author of 215's stated reasons?

 

[TorturedSoul]

Here`s an idea. If med clubs are non prophet and servicing the ill should they be allowed to keep there non prophet statis if they start selling marijuana for recreational use? I think not! Lets let them also start paying much more of there share of taxes and then we can pass more laws to `Regulate and Control` them also,after all they would be selling marijuana for recreational use so why should they get a brake? What`s good for the goose...

I can agree with the gist of that. For one, many - certainly not all - "clubs" are not in practical terms, non-profits. The owners of many live well above the median level of their (legitimate medical) customers. Not all by any stretch of the imagination.

And many clubs offer other associated services - and these must be paid for.

I would hope that such things - and the fraud in the "medical" cannabis industry in general - are addressed soon after this initiative becomes law. After all, at that point many of the people who are now taking advantage of the laxity of regulation in that industry will no longer have the excuse that they "have" to commit such frauds in order to be "legal" (which they aren't anyway if they're fraudulent users).

I would like to see things tightened up enough that a model can become viable wherein the same dispensary/club/store/whatever can - if it so chooses - sell to both medical and recreational users, and that a portion of the monies earned from recreational sales could go towards subsidizing either legitimate medicinal users as a whole, or those who are in the lower-income brackets.

I can only with assurance speak for myself, but I would not mind paying a little more (than I would otherwise be required to) in order that those least able to pay and most deserving of the products have a chance to get them.

I would also not mind knowing that any profits that an owner (and his/her staff) of such a business receives from such sales allow him/her to operate without resorting to the current practice of raping the medicinal users.

Also, you might look at the comments I placed in my last post in the other thread about the initiative in regards to the fact that this initiative actually includes language that would help employees fight the practice of drug-testing (for cannabis) in any case where it cannot be shown that said employees were actually "under the influence" while AT work. AfaIK there aren't currently any pieces of legislation in affect in California that even attempt to address this injustice. I have read the current proposed medical cannabis legislation for the state of Ohio and it does include such language; and, in fact, I believe it is worded somewhat better. But I really AM a firm believer that taking what one can get (when it provides some help) is a much wiser strategy than wanting to take one's ball out of the playground and go home if one does not immediately get EVERYTHING that one wants. YMMV

 

[MedicalNeed]

What if the Non-profit dispensaries start selling Rec. Cannabis to then reduce it's Medical Cannabis prices and or to give it to the most needy patients who cannot afford to buy it?

I think we will see a lot of "Outside The Box" thinking in this area, and I for one am curious as to what some of these Ideas maybe.

 

[markscastle]

I tryed to put a link up from Denis that he had on youtube but was told it was gainst the rules here.If I were to state everything in his arguement it would amount to here say.Better people google it themselfs or search it on youtube.But he has about the same ideas as I do with the one exception that I think it would be exceptable to have sales taxes on recreational marijuana.

You sure like to break down what I say and take it out of text don`t you?!

The state of California is broke because people are out of work.People are out of work because consumers have tightend there belts and are not spending.People have tightend there belts because they have lost so much of there wealth.People have lost there wealth because they had barrowed on the apraised value of there homes believing the value to be true. Homes value has gone down because investers had propped up the values of homes creating a bubble that broke.Banks ,(and there investers)were rescued by the feds while people and local goverments were allowed to suffer. The cost of state and local goverments programs were in line of expected revenues but those revenues are no longer there. No jobs, no spending, no taxes. we have all been raped by crooked investers while the Fedral Goverment just stude by and watched! Now we have to raise taxes and /or cut spending to make up for the shortages of state and local Goverments.But the people need a brake as bad as the Goverments do have to pay more taxes and with fewer jobs and many being made homeless? The only solution is to stop foreclosers and stablize home values.Falling home values got us into this mess and only stable home values and hard work will get us out of this mess! That and a few good spiffs to help us relax.Now is not the time to tax Marijuana as it`s needed more than ever before to help the masses relax in hard times.

I do believe we should allow industrial hemp to be grown here and that would help with jobs and create tax revenue.It would also help clean up hard deposits of minerals in the soil,eat co2 out of the air,and could be used to replace oil made products and is a renewable resourse. That would be win -win situation for everyone in the United States. Well ,except the oil companies.

 

[Lemon Paradise]

TS... great stuff as always... I would rep you a thousand times,, but I can't even give you one... DoH!

 

[Slayer84092]

Man, I feel like I read a completely different bill than some of you. How can you complain about getting an inch of freedom, just because its not a mile?