New to this world, advice appreciated

[DravetDad]

Good evening everyone,

So up until a couple months ago I was that guy that was so far removed from the drug culture that I wouldn't even know where to start if I were to get the stuff. I actually support legalized marijuana for anyone who wants to smoke it, but I never had any interest in doing so in my life. That's changed over the past couple of years as my oldest son was diagnosed with Dravet Syndrome, you may have heard about it from the recent CNN documentary, Weed. Before the documentary we were considering trying it for my son... after the documentary we were determined to do it. My son is almost 5 and we got him carded and legal in Washington state to use medical marijuana to control his seizures. We went to a dispensary and bought an oz to test it and see how he would react. We made it into an oil and then steadily increased his dose over two weeks to test if it would work for him. The results were AMAZING. My son has the worst visually triggered seizures that any Dr. we have been to has ever seen. his brain is under assault all day, every day, from his visual triggers. Well MMJ was the first thing that has stopped those visual triggers ever. We're sold, we have to do this, but buying three to four oz each month will break the bank, so we need to grow it.

We're planning on setting up two 4x4 grow tents so that we can get a steady supply going. Figure each tent can do 5 plants, and I'll have a separate cloning box with 5, so we can maximize our 15 plant limit her in Washington.

I wanted to get your take on the equipment we are planning on buying to see if we're missing anything, or have made a bad choice. Both of these tents will be setup in our garage. We'll be growing a high CBD/ low THC strain for making oil.

Tents:
2 Virtual Sun 4x4 grow tents

Lights:
2 x G8LED 450 watt LED, one in each tent
2 x G8LED 90 watt Red LEDs, both for the flowering tent to boost the bloom.

Ventilation & odor control:
2 x VenTech IF6CF620 6" Inline Duct Fan 440 CFM w/ Virgin Charcoal Carbon Filter Combo

Random stuff:
Timer for lights in each tent
one oscillating clip on fan for each tent to create air movement
one temp/humidity monitor for each tent.
mite control stuff
pots, 5 gallon
organic potting soil

Please don't try to convince me not to use LEDs. I've read the research, the comparisons, and understand the difference between the different lights. The lower cost of operation and reduced need for cooling equipment more than makes up for the increased cost in my mind. I've also seen plenty of reviews showing that they work well, so please don't bother telling me they don't if your a HPS person, it won't convince me.

Questions:
Will this setup work?
How much can we expect to harvest from each batch with this setup?
Do we have the right LEDs? Our budget probably doesn't have a whole lot more room in it, but if you suggested a comparable alternative I'd be interested in checking it out.
I've wondered if there is any benefit to having more lights equaling the same wattage because the different angles will give more angles of penetration, Thoughts?
Is any additional light needed for the veg tent?
Will I get much bang for my buck if I augment the veg tent with a blue LED?


Thanks for any help.

 

[GreatLife4All]

Welcome to

I am glad that you have found a solution for your child. I wish you well in your grows.

I will give you a couple of suggestions. I am currently running three tents in my basement - so I am familiar with set ups and etc.

We're planning on setting up two 4x4 grow tents so that we can get a steady supply going. Figure each tent can do 5 plants, and I'll have a separate cloning box with 5, so we can maximize our 15 plant limit her in Washington.

This is a really hard one... it depends on the variety that you plan on growing... the length of veg... technique...

I would probably do a max of 4 in each tent. That gives you eight plants and a little bit of room under the limit. In a 4x4 tent - four plants are plenty and will likely yield better than 5 anyway... especially if you give them a little more time in veg and pick a short variety.

The one warning that I will give is that it is hard to coordinate schedules between a clone box and two growing tents. You are likely going to want three grow tents - two for flowering and one for veg. You can make it work without doing this - it is just harder to get a schedule down that gives a perpetual harvest.

Here is the issue... let's say that you have an eight week variety. Cloning typically takes two weeks and you will want about 4 weeks of veg. That is 6 weeks. You have a two week gap and if you allow the plants to continue vegging - before they finish flowering they may outgrow the tent, get too close to the light, etc. resulting in reduced yield. You can solve this in several ways... but waiting to clone until you are in the second week of flowering is the easiest. The clones are a little harder to get started... but it solves the timing issue.

16 plants would be an ideal limit - you could then have 4 clones... 4 in veg... and 8 flowering. With an eight week variety - this will give you a perpetual harvest every 4 weeks with no timing issues.

Tents:
2 Virtual Sun 4x4 grow tents

Here is an alternative: Aviditi PTU-66 Mylar Reflective Hydroponic Grow Tent, 48-Inch Wide by 48-Inch Deep by 79-Inch High

This will allow you to save $80 and they are good quality - I use them. You can see pictures of them in use in my photo gallery.

Lights:
2 x G8LED 450 watt LED, one in each tent
2 x G8LED 90 watt Red LEDs, both for the flowering tent to boost the bloom.

IMO, you are a little under-powered on the lights. There is an old saying... Double the lights - double the yield; Double the nutes, kill the plant. There is a certain truth to this - the more light the better... as long as you can control temperatures. I would suggest a minimum of a 600W light in each tent. There is only a $20 to $40 difference between a 400W and 600W - and you will get 50% more light. A bargain.

A second point that I would like to make here - and one that is often not thought about is the reflector. Lots of options here. I have tried several different kinds in a tent. I used an open faced 600W for a while - too much heat. I switched then to a CoolTube hooked into a ventilation system - and the light distribution sucked for a square tent. I then upgraded to a high quality reflector designed for a square tent - and it is like I doubled the light that is reaching ALL the plants in the tent. I use a BlockBuster 6in Reflector - and it is well worth the upgrade cost.

And maybe most important are the bulbs. They make bulbs now that have both blue and red - and they are very, very good for flowering. You will want to use an MH bulb for vegging. It is relatively easy to switch light bulbs. IMO, one of the best bulbs on the market for flowering is the following: Hortilux Super HPS Enhanced Spectrum Bulb, 600W

Ventilation & odor control:
2 x VenTech IF6CF620 6" Inline Duct Fan 440 CFM w/ Virgin Charcoal Carbon Filter Combo

Ventilation is very important for indoor gardening. There seem to be two accepted methods of running your ventilation. The first requires one fan per tent - and the second requires one additional fan. To use two fans, you should hook each tent up like this: Charcoal Filter->Fan->Light->Exhaust. Using this configuration will allow the fan motor to last longer - as you are not passing hot air from the light through the motor.

The second, slightly more expensive option is to set up each tent like this: Charcoal Filter->Fan->Exhaust. You then run a common light cooling duct between the two tents like this: Filter->Fan->Light(Tent1)->Duct Connection->Light(Tent2)->Exhaust.

You will find that it is much easier to control temperature inside of a growing tent by using a separate exhaust system for the grow space and light. Keeping temperatures under control will be key for a successful grow.

Random stuff:
Timer for lights in each tent
one oscillating clip on fan for each tent to create air movement

Agree with everything above. You will want the oscillating fan to be able to start low and move up to follow the canopy as the plants grow. The easiest way that I have found is to purchase a <Strong> clip fan and then attach it to a 2x4 that you connect to the top and bottom metal frame of the tent. You can then move the clip fan to any point on the 2x4 to keep the oscillating fan at the top of the canopy.

one temp/humidity monitor for each tent.

Definitely a good purchase. You will find it easiest to monitor if you use a wireless solution (you won't have to enter the tent to check the temp and humidity). The problem is that due to the interior of the tent being mylar - it blocks the signal of weaker units. The one that I have found works best is this: Meade TM005X-M Wireless Indoor/Outdoor Thermos Hygrometer.

You can then pair this with the following: Amazon - Meade TS33C-M Temperature and Humidity Sensor with LCD, White

And you will have a temperature/humidity sensor for each tent and the grow room that they are in. All of these can be monitored from a single location. Very convenient.

Please don't try to convince me not to use LEDs. I've read the research, the comparisons, and understand the difference between the different lights. The lower cost of operation and reduced need for cooling equipment more than makes up for the increased cost in my mind. I've also seen plenty of reviews showing that they work well, so please don't bother telling me they don't if your a HPS person, it won't convince me.

I wouldn't be so cavalier my friend. LEDs have come a long way in the past year and they will continue to improve as time goes on. But very few people will tell you, honestly, that an LED is better than a HID. Temperature can be controlled very easily - especially in a tent. But you can't make up for the lack of penetration in the foliage between an HPS and an LED. LEDs are built from lots of small bulbs - they simply don't have the power to penetrate leaf material. So you will get lightweight buds lower on the plant. They can be trimmed away... but then you are only getting yield from the very top of the plant.

LED bulbs started at 1 Watt each... then 3 became popular... and now 5 watts are the latest. They are in search of better light penetration and they are not there yet. If you ignore the marketing hype and look at what the LED companies (all of them) are doing... it matches what I said above.

If you really want to maximize essential oils - use an HPS and augment it with a UV-B light. When cannabis is placed under UV-B, it causes the plant to generate and secrete more oils onto the surface of the leafs - much better for your needs.

Oh wait... I wasn't supposed to question your choice in this area... but really... there are better options if you would be open-minded enough to consider them.

Questions:
Will this setup work?

Subject to the 10,000 little things you and I have both forgotten... absolutely.

How much can we expect to harvest from each batch with this setup?

There are too many variables for anyone to give you an accurate answer. A good guess is the best we can do. If you grow use sufficient light, a good reflector, adequate ventilation, and are a good grower then four plants placed in soil using organic nutes... two ounces of dry material per plant would be a good yield. A good, experienced grower can do better than this.

Thanks for any help.

I hope that you find this advise helpful and get things set up quickly and easily. It is great fun just growing the plant. There are times when they will grow 4" overnight and amaze you. The colors, the smells... it is addicting. And you have a great reason to be growing

 

[Richard Richardson]

Hi Dave to 420Land.

I'm sorry to hear about your son's illness, but I am pleased at your determination to help him

You just got a hunk of a chunk of good advice there from Greatlife4all.

I use Cfls and 1 Megasuper8Watt LED "array".

If you feel that LED is the way to go, that's fine.

Everyone here is making their own personal discoverys.

LEDs are better for vegging without a doubt,

I have also seen some monster-crops as well from them, but yeah, there is a lot of hype and misinformation out there.

I dont think penetration is a problem with LEDs, especially the new 5 watt lamps with their mini-reflectors,

but don't be scared of mixing light sources.

The sun is not "White" or "yellow" (It's actually green )

UV-B is also a biggie for resin production.

You can get a reptile lamp for that later on.

I am growing "dieseltonic" and "Cannatonic", two high-CBD strains.

Reps for your efforts and please start a Grow Journal when you are ready

God bless you and your family.

 

[GreatLife4All]

If you feel that LED is the way to go, that's fine.

Agreed... it is just not the right choice for him personally... and he is the one asking.

I dont think penetration is a problem with LEDs, especially the new 5 watt lamps with their mini-reflectors,

Yes, actually, if you are being honest it is still an issue. I will wager that someone will come out with a 10W lamp as soon as technology allows. And then 20W will follow... the ONLY reason for this is penetration. You can still find marketing brochures and web sites which proclaim that 3Watts is the solution... and now those same companies are saying 5 watts is the solution... Marketing hype of a product not yet ready for prime time.

In fact, I will dare anyone to run a 1,000 watt hid against an LED - any LED - and honestly report results. You will have larger buds with far more potency.

So it is not that LEDs won't grow - hell you can grow with an incandescent 100W light bulb- it is the basic fact that there is something better and cheaper available today.

UV-B is also a biggie for resin production.

Given his personal situation... this is what really matters. Why point him in a direction that won't produce the best results for his desires? Just because LEDs are cool at this point in time?

I have three friends all using LEDs and they keep trying to talk me into it (nearly successfully three or four times now) - but every time I look at their results and mine... there is no doubt about which is better quality product. Hell, they will even admit it while trying to beat me up about all the heat generated by my 1,000W light. But there are solutions that work for heat... no LED solutions that work for penetration... though I admit they keep getting better and eventually will likely solve the problem. But it is physically impossible to get the same penetration from a 5 watt source as you do from a 1,000 watt source.

One other comment and I will stop beating up LEDs. There is a reason why the LED companies keep changing the color spectrums of the bulbs and lamps. And it is not likely due to the fact that the spectrums produced are optimal...

I knew that I would get beaten up for taking this position against LEDs - they are very popular on this and other sites. But my challenge above stands... show me that you can do better with an LED - don't simply claim it based on marketing hype for the latest solution to a long-standing problem. I hope that someone takes me up on this and proves me wrong...

Once proven that LEDs are better than the solution suggested above, I will switch all my tents immediately.

 

[DravetDad]

Hi and thank you to everyone for giving the great advice from your experience.

Thanks for the UV-B info, I'll have to make sure I get a light source for that. For us we are really looking to maximize the resin and CBD to extract into an oil, so this was exactly the kind of advice I needed. THANK YOU! Does it only need to be in the flowering tent, or should it be in both tents? Any specific wattage or ratio I should go for, or does the process just need a small amount? Recommendations on a UV-B light for a 4x4 tent?

I don't want to sound ungrateful for the advice from experienced growers but I disagree on the LED v HPS advice based on my hobby studying physics. Energy is a zero sum game, if LEDs and HPS are using the same amount of energy in each of the growing spectrums then they give the plants and equal amount of energy for growing. So, what's with the penetration thing? Well its the difference between a surgical approach (LED) and a brute force approach (HPS). An HPS system uses so much more wattage that more of it bounces off the walls and gets to the underside of the plants. It bounces around and creates more ambient light that has bounced multiple times. So what you are paying for with all those extra watts is more indirect light. It is the same effect as when the sun reflects off a white wall, or a wall of windows, you get more indirect light. This is why I was asking about increasing the number of LED fixtures, because it would increase the number of angles that the light can take to penetrate through the canopy. Your HPS will bounce off the wall and come into the lower leaves at a different angle, but if I had more LEDs dispersed around, the same amount of light could penetrate the canopy from one of the LEDs not directly over head. Of course with the lenses used on LEDs, it would be a light that is at a 120 or 90 degree angle (depending on the light). So this is all stuff that I had considered in my choice of LEDs, and why I was set on using them vs HPS, which seems to be really inefficient.

For me, I'd like to make a higher initial investment and keep my energy bills lower in the long run. I'm also in a very military heavy neighborhood, so sick child or not, anything that tips off the neighbors to my grow will make it a very uncomfortable place. More fans making noise, higher electricity, smell, anything that could point to a grow would not be good, and I have VERY nosy neighbors.

Glad for the equipment recommendations, I was not going off of anything other than amazon reviews, so having some actual growers point to specific products helps. Best, DravetDad

 

[GreatLife4All]

You are free to use whatever you want - I am not here to judge - only advise. You will find no shortage of people who will claim I am wrong.

I graduated with honors from one of the top three engineering colleges in the country - they prided themselves on flunking people out of college. I only bring this up to make sure that you KNOW that I do understand everything that you said. I have used those arguments on myself... and they are sensible. But at the end of the day... the only reason I have that light running is the end product. And no one will argue quality... only physics and what should be.

Light is not just photons bouncing around - you are taking a particle physics look at a wave theory. A HID light generates large and powerful waves of light. Much of this energy can pass right through the foliage and be absorbed below. With an LED, you are generating lots of waves, each of which has 5 watts of power (at most... you must reduce for all the various losses) and comparing it to waves which are generated with 1,000 watts of power. It is the energy which is different - not the way in which photons bounce.

Maybe think about it this way... I can generate the exact same spectrum of light from the sun with a very expensive light bulb here on earth... but I can't generate it's intensity. This can not be explained by talking about photons, photon density, or photons bouncing. On a smaller scale, this is what I am talking about.

At the end of the day, I like to debate interesting topics - and this is one of them. You are new and don't know me - so please don't be offended by my comments as I am not trying to generate fire... only open eyes. And I appreciate well thought out responses - you certainly will never insult me, nor need to apologize, because you have taken a different, but well thought out path.

One thing that all that engineering and real world experience has taught me is that I will never guarantee that I am correct. So at the end of the day, you may even change my mind.

 

[GreatLife4All]

Since you are worried about quiet... one more point from experience.

Large fans under speed control can move the same volume of air as a smaller fan running all out - the difference is in the amount of noise generated. Also, larger duct work will allow the air to move more slowly, thus reducing noise. And finally, you can build a baffle box on the end of the exhaust which will pretty much kill all fan noise coming out of the tent without reducing air flow significantly - these are cheap as it is just a couple pieces of thin plywood made into a box with baffles and then lined with expanded foam.

And finally, insulated duct work will kill more noise than the plain rigid or semi-rigid versions.

 

[DravetDad]

GL4A,

First of all you rock. We seem to be kindred spirits when it comes to exchanging ideas. I'm sure you have also learned over time that most people don't share our approach and ability to debate and change our own minds. Totally get your intensity argument, it does make sense, but overall, ongoing electricity budget is a consideration and paying for worthless watts with an HPS just doesn't make sense to me.

Do you have any thoughts on the multiple smaller units vs one bigger unit question I posed? Should I downgrade the 450s to two 240s? I'm also wondering if mirrored walls make sense with LEDs? I've heard that it's a no no with the HPS because the intensity will damage leaves as it bounces around. But with LEDs, would it help create more angles of entry for the light to penetrate?

 

[GreatLife4All]

I have seen many on this site who do place CFLs all around the grow room to help with light penetration - and they do the same thing with LEDs. So yes, this seems to be a valid technique... and I see evidence that it helps tremendously. But you will be surprised at how quickly the heat and watts add up when you get sufficient coverage.

I am just playing around with alternate light sources at this point. I started at this from a different angle. I was wondering why I was able to grow such good plants outdoors this year and not duplicate it indoors. I planted the same genetics outdoors and used the same basic nutrient plan. But the outdoor plants just killed my indoor ones with taste, potency, and smell. It was immediately obvious in July as they started budding that there is a major difference.

Research led me to UV-B as one of the major lighting elements missing indoors. HPS lamps generate a small amount - but if you run a vented hood with a good quality lens - it takes out 90% of the UV-A and UV-B light. You end up with essentially nothing. UV-B is deemed important for the generation of essential oils in plants... so I ran an experiment where I purchased a terrarium light (UV-B 10 bulb) and started running it on the edge of my large HPS.

It doesn't provide good coverage of the 4x4 tent - but this is perfect for my experiment. When I placed the light in the tent - the portions of the plant exposed to the light came out much more heavily coated in resin, better smell, and taste. Basically two buds off the same plant with very different levels of resin. UV-B works.

But now I am playing around with how to get coverage in a 4x4 tent. I have two 24" T5 fixtures running the UV-B lights - and there is still a gap in coverage in the very center of the tent. So I don't have an answer yet on how many or where to place them - it is an ongoing area of change in my system.

I started another thread on here about a thought I had on decreasing light intensity during the end of flowering (simulate natural conditions). I ran one tent on reduced light (750 watts) and one tent with enhanced light (1100W with 50 watts UVB) at the end of flowering. The enhanced lighting produced way better - all other conditions were pretty much held constant (within reason - I don't have scientific equipment and monitoring). I now run my tents with as much light as the plant can take and am trying to figure out how to increase the coverage for the UV-B lighting to 100% of the tent.

My goal would be to have about 10% of the total wattage dedicated to UVB 10 bulbs. For my setup, that would be 4 of the 24 watt T5 bulbs. So surely I can figure out a way to hang those... but there is so much crap in my tent already.

 

[GreatLife4All]

There are a couple of LED supply companies that will build a custom light for you.

There are also some posts on this site about which spectrums to include. I also know that they can put UV-B generating leds into the light panel. So for you, this might be the best of both worlds. Control the heat and still get good light coverage with UVB included.

HoseBomber is considered the lighting expert on this site. He has contributed several different LED profiles that would seem to provide good coverage in a custom built lamp. You might want to look up some of his threads or send him a PM.

 

[TanR]

Hi DravetDad,

Just wanted to add my welcome to site and community of members. I am gutted at the thought of your son's illness, but delighted that cannabis is providing some relief. I commend you on your endeavor to provide him that relief and offer my most sincere wishes that you are wildly successful in your efforts. If there is EVER anything any of us can offer in the way of assistance, you need only ask!

Be well.

 

[Richard Richardson]

Both of you rock

You too, TanR

 

[GreatLife4All]

Both of you rock

I have enjoyed our interactions to date... you deserve the nomination that you got this month my friend and I am glad that your contributions have been noted.

And thanks for the reps.

 

[Richard Richardson]

I have enjoyed our interactions to date... you deserve the nomination that you got this month my friend and I am glad that your contributions have been noted.

And thanks for the reps.

Thank you Greatlife

That comment means more to me than the nomination

 

[David Bowman]

Hmm, I wonder how well UVB CFL bulbs would work. Zila makes a 20 watt UVB CFL for around $30 or so.

 

[Graytail]

I don't think anyone addressed yield. I have a 4x4 space with a separate veg cabinet and I'm yielding 4+ oz/mo, probably as much as you'll need.

You might find that the second tent is better for veg - that will allow you to run a perpetual grow, starting and harvesting a couple plants each month.

I also suggest you look into some recent grow journals testing TopLED's (a 420 sponsor) latest units, if you haven't already. They seem to be an especially good value.

 

[David Bowman]

Upon further investigation, I've found Repti Glo 10.0 26-Watt CFL Desert Terrarium bulbs for $13+ each (w/free shipping on Amazon). They are ultra-high UVA and UVB output effective up to 20", which is nearly half of the length of my grow box. They are also low visual and infrared output bulbs. I'm thinking of getting one for each corner of my grow box replacing one of the 2 42-watt 2700K CFLs I was going to use during flowering. This would be about 20% of total wattage during flowering? This should also reduce my energy consumption as well as heat generation.

These are bulbs that you would use only during flowering stage correct or would you also use them in vegetative stage?

Are there any issues with UVA output in addition to UVB output? I wouldn't think so since both are present in sunlight, but I'm unsure of the requirements/issues surrounding the flowering stage with respect to UV light.

Is UVB 20% of total wattage too much do you think?

Anything else that I have failed to consider?

 

[GreatLife4All]

I use them only during flowering stage.

The first run, I only used them during the last two weeks of flowering - and it still made a small difference.

And yes, for $13 you really can't beat this light source.

 

[GreatLife4All]

This would be about 20% of total wattage during flowering? This should also reduce my energy consumption as well as heat generation.

I would be interested in hearing about your results if you do this.

Are there any issues with UVA output in addition to UVB output? I wouldn't think so since both are present in sunlight, but I'm unsure of the requirements/issues surrounding the flowering stage with respect to UV light.

The plants don't need UVA as much as UVB. UVA is also more damaging to the human eye, IIRC.

Is UVB 20% of total wattage too much do you think?

Everything I read said target about 10% of your light energy budget towards UV-B. If it proves to be too much, you can always drop down and use the UVB 5 bulbs. 1/2 the output of UV.

I don't know if there is a "toxic" level of exposure. But the initial information I read said to start them slowly then increase exposure over time. I simply plugged them into my light timer and decided to tame it down if I saw damage. I never saw any damage. There was one time when I didn't have the light hanging correctly and it fell on top of a plant. Burned the leaves directly under the light badly - but it was very localized. So you can definitely burn leaves with over exposure.

 

[David Bowman]

I would be interested in hearing about your results if you do this.

If I do do this I will certainly include it in my grow journal.

The plants don't need UVA as much as UVB. UVA is also more damaging to the human eye, IIRC.

Yeah, that's a concern of mine as well. I definitely don't want to damage my eyes, but I wonder how reptile owners deal with the increase in UV light in their environment brought on by these bulbs. I can always switch off the side lights if I will be working for an extended period of time in the grow room I guess.

Everything I read said target about 10% of your light energy budget towards UV-B. If it proves to be too much, you can always drop down and use the UVB 5 bulbs. 1/2 the output of UV.

Good idea about the UVB 5 bulbs. However, they're effective range is only 12" and I'm not sure their range would be enough to reach the plants. I could also just install 2 UVB 10 bulbs in opposing corners and see how that goes, and go from there.

I don't know if there is a "toxic" level of exposure. But the initial information I read said to start them slowly then increase exposure over time. I simply plugged them into my light timer and decided to tame it down if I saw damage. I never saw any damage. There was one time when I didn't have the light hanging correctly and it fell on top of a plant. Burned the leaves directly under the light badly - but it was very localized. So you can definitely burn leaves with over exposure.

Thanks for your input GreatLife4All! It's given me a lot to think about that's for sure!!