MotaFina - 15 Year Old White Widow x Skunk Seeds - Indoor Soil - HID

[MotaFina]

Day 55 - I removed two more plants just to thin out the posse. So now I'm down to 5 plants. Three of the remaining have shown female preflowers, and the other two are leaning towards female (pointy preflowers, but no pistils yet).

I'm planning on flipping to 12/12 in 8 days, which will be 63 days from seed. What should I be doing now to prepare for the flip?

I've done the following:
- plants are in their final pots
- I'm still feeding them veg nutes - Earth Juice Grow, Catalyst, Meta-K and Micro
- LST is still ongoing

What else should be done?

I'm considering doing the following:
- swap out the 400w MH for 1000w HPS (to simulate late summer)
- a second topping of some of the longer branches. Is it too close to flowering to do this?
- start adding Bloom to the nutes
- remove some of the lowest growth - branches and fan leaves.

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[MotaFina]

Day 62 - I added 4 26W 5000K CFLs on the outside of the canopy. My White Widow/Skunk is still not showing preflowers. All 4 of the Oregon bagseed plants are female.

Here's JWWS2 - still not super full and not showing sex, but ready to go into flower:

And here's the full canopy. They're all looking pretty healthy. I'm bending them this way and that to try to maintain an even canopy. I'm considering going a little OTL and keeping the whole bunch going. My state has such draconian MMJ laws that I'm already OTL anyways (long story):

 

[Fullyspectrum]

Was it a struggle getting them to pop?

 

[Fullyspectrum]

Would been keen to see where they stand on the The Phylos Galaxy

Keep the genetics undisturbed, i would be doing a seed run for sure.... taking clones amd making plenty of fem seeds if no male is available.

 

[MotaFina]

Was it a struggle getting them to pop?

It wasn't a struggle, but the percentage was low. I soaked 10 or so of the old seeds in spring water overnight, then put them into a wet paper towel. Two popped right away, then that was it. I gave the others about 10 days and nothing.

What's special about these to me are that my brother bred them. I don't know where he got the originals or how much he knew about breeding. He died a few years ago, so I have no way to find out anything about them. I have about 20 more. I'll try some techniques I've read about to get a higher percentage when I go to germinate those.

 

[MotaFina]

Day 65: Switched to 12/12 two days ago.

I put in the 1000w HPS light. Here's a pic:

The heat hit yesterday. The high was 94F and today will be in the 90s also. The basement is still relatively cool, but I see some heat stress. Could be the heat wave or the extra heat from the 1000w bulb. I've got a second 440 cfm fan pulling air out the tent and out a window. I turned that up to high to offset the heat.

I'm still feeding veg nutes.

 

[MotaFina]

I also did some light defoliating of the lower canopy.

And I tried my hand at supercropping one of the branches that was reaching up higher than the others. The supercropped limb seemed to suffer, with droopy leaves that still haven't recovered after 3 days. I'm hoping that turns around. It does seem to have served it's purpose of getting that one branch down into the canopy again.

 

[MotaFina]

JWWS2 finally showed her sex. Now the hard decision....I've got 5 confirmed females in my 4x4 tent. Legally, I'm only allowed to have 2 plants IF I sign up for 'cultivation' rather than 'dispensary'. We signed up for dispensary initially and aren't allowed to change that for 90 days. So with this grow, I'm already outside the law and the actual number of plants doesn't matter from a legal standpoint. The next consideration is my yield. Will I get a better yield with 5 crowded plants, or 4 slightly less-crowded plants?

 

[MotaFina]

I decided to remove one plant to give the others more room...a painful decision, but hopefully for the better. Here's a pic from today - six days into flowering:

 

[MotaFina]

Is this magnesium deficiency?

The lower leaves on 3 of the plants are starting to look like this and some are dropping off. Would adding some dissolved Epsom salt to the water help? I tried foliar feeding dissolved Epsom salt last night. I don't have any Cal-Mag product.

 

[MotaFina]

Day 73 - Day 10 of flowering:

Buds are beginning to show now:

But I'm also seeing more of some kind of deficiency:

I posted to the "Ask us anything" journal and got a couple of responses saying this looks like nitrogen deficiency. I did a semi-flush yesterday. They look a little better today. I think my next feeding, I'll increase the amount of Grow I add and also add in some Epsom salt in case this is Mg deficiency.

 

[BluePhoric]

I posted to the "Ask us anything" journal and got a couple of responses saying this looks like nitrogen deficiency. I did a semi-flush yesterday. They look a little better today. I think my next feeding, I'll increase the amount of Grow I add and also add in some Epsom salt in case this is Mg deficiency.

Nitrogen, but good call also on the MG.
Check this link,
Magnesium : Lower leaves turn yellow from outside going in, veins remain green.
Nitrogen : Upper leaves are light green, where lower leaves are yellow. Bottom or older leaves are yellow and shriveled.

 

[MotaFina]

Update Day 79 - Day 16 of flowering

I'm still having severe problems with yellowing of lower leaves and now a general look of poor health in the plants. Also, the plants are only in the third week of flowering and are already pretty well into budding. It seems to be budding prematurely or something.

Here's one of the plants looking at the yellowing lower leaves:

Previous advice I got said Nitrogen deficiency, but I'm not sure that's all of it. I'm going to try to get a pH reading of the soil. I'm thinking that the problem might be nutrient lockout due to the pH being out of whack.

For the soil pH, can I dig down into the pot a little, take a tablespoon or so of soil, drop it into a small glass, add pH neutral water, mix it up then strain the water and test it?

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[BluePhoric]

Update Day 79 - Day 16 of flowering

I'm still having severe problems with yellowing of lower leaves and now a general look of poor health in the plants. Also, the plants are only in the third week of flowering and are already pretty well into budding. It seems to be budding prematurely or something.

Here's one of the plants looking at the yellowing lower leaves

Previous advice I got said Nitrogen deficiency, but I'm not sure that's all of it. I'm going to try to get a pH reading of the soil. I'm thinking that the problem might be nutrient lockout due to the pH being out of whack.

For the soil pH, can I dig down into the pot a little, take a tablespoon or so of soil, drop it into a small glass, add pH neutral water, mix it up then strain the water and test it?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Are they still in 2 gallon plastic pots ?

Did you check the runoff water's PH ?

 

[BluePhoric]

Hey MF, just read you are an IT pro. Me too. Been my own boss for almost 20 years now. You?

 

[MotaFina]

Are they still in 2 gallon plastic pots ?

3 are in 3-gal and one is in 5-gal. Rootbound?

Did you check the runoff water's PH ?

I check it but I get really inconsistent results. For example, I fed them last night - the first feeding with Bloom. At first I didn't try to pH up the mix. I just started watering. I checked the very first bit of runoff, and it was LOW...dark red...off the scale. So I thought that must be the mix and that the soil should be able to buffer it. And I kept watering. I measured runoff pH again after all the runoff had runoff from that pot, and it had buffered it a little. But it was not good...still way too low. So I Googled "Why is Earth Juice so acidic?" and found lots of folks having the same problems I'm having now....yellowing leaves in early flower. That's why I asked you if you're bubbling. It seems that in order to use EJ without using pH UP, you need to get an air pump and stone and set the mix in a bucket for two days pumping air through it to lower the pH.

Well I'm not setup for that and not sure I really want to go that route. So I grabbed the pH UP and started adding a bit to the EJ mix and testing. I had to add a LOT of pH UP before it got into the yellow. Like 10 ml to 2 gallons mix...maybe more. But it finally got there. So I finished feeding with the pH'd mix and the runoff was testing out better.

So, I'm watching your grow very closely and wondering what you're doing about the low pH in EJ nutes. I'm definitely considering moving away from them. I still want to stay with organics, but not sure I can deal with the bubbling or adding fairly large amounts of PH UP.

Hey MF, just read you are an IT pro. Me too. Been my own boss for almost 20 years now. You?

Yep, in IT since '95. I work for a huge corporation, but I work from home.

 

[BluePhoric]

3 are in 3-gal and one is in 5-gal. Rootbound?

I check it but I get really inconsistent results. For example, I fed them last night - the first feeding with Bloom. At first I didn't try to pH up the mix. I just started watering. I checked the very first bit of runoff, and it was LOW...dark red...off the scale. So I thought that must be the mix and that the soil should be able to buffer it. And I kept watering. I measured runoff pH again after all the runoff had runoff from that pot, and it had buffered it a little. But it was not good...still way too low. So I Googled "Why is Earth Juice so acidic?" and found lots of folks having the same problems I'm having now....yellowing leaves in early flower. That's why I asked you if you're bubbling. It seems that in order to use EJ without using pH UP, you need to get an air pump and stone and set the mix in a bucket for two days pumping air through it to lower the pH.

Well I'm not setup for that and not sure I really want to go that route. So I grabbed the pH UP and started adding a bit to the EJ mix and testing. I had to add a LOT of pH UP before it got into the yellow. Like 10 ml...maybe more. But it finally got there. So I finished feeding with the pH'd mix and the runoff was testing out better.

So, I'm watching your grow very closely and wondering what you're doing about the low pH in EJ nutes. I'm definitely considering moving away from them. I still want to stay with organics, but not sure I can deal with the bubbling or adding fairly large amounts of PH UP.

Yep, in IT since '95. I work for a huge corporation, but I work from home.

Hmm... 5 gallons should be ok I suppose... And the plants are not that big.
- Is the one in the 3-Gal worse than the 5's ?
- Could you possibly pick one plant out of the pot to see the roots ? Are the roots showing in the bottom holes ?
- Soil buffering : What is the "living" medium in your soil ? I have 20% compost in there. What's in yours ?
- Dolomitic lime works ok to PH+UP, if you want to try it. BUT it gains like 1 more point in 12 hours, so you must aim for a very little PH up at first and let stand for at least 12 hours. I found that just 1/8 teaspoon for 5 gallons water is about right. Don't add more, it will sneak up on you. Also... if you first add the Lime in plain water, it tends to top at PH7, so is less effective when adding nuts after. I think its best to add the Lime after the nutes. Use the fine powdered Lime, as the other kind (granules) dilutes event slower.

I'm sorry that you have such difficulties, and i wish I could give you my secret recipe, but I'm just lucky I guess.

BUT I'd say you have an underlying cause, and it might well be roots. Maybe your plants grew a LOT of roots. Your soil would be unable to buffer adequately, your roots would be unable to take up the nutes (N) adequately, etc. Nitrogen has a WIDE range of usable PH, unlike many other chemicals. I guess if you problem was only PH, you'd see other nute deficiencies. Nitrogen is absorbed at PH5 or higher, but Phosphorus, Calcium, Magnesium, Mobylium need PH 6, 6.5 +. Your leaves are not spotted or red-ish or weird (Phosphorus, Calcium, Magnesium, Mobylium) and the only symptom seems to be the yellowing.

Runoff water : I think you should make sure you have at like a solo-cup full of runoff water. Test only that sample. Mine comes out at PH6.25. If yours comes out at like 4.5, you should do something, either :
- Use some kind of PH+up
- Repot in 7 gal pot, adding something like 20% compost to the new mix. Maybe try that with only 1 plant.

Good day Mota.

 

[BluePhoric]

I misread about the 3 vs 5 gallon post. I thought the majority was in 5s.

Well, 3 gal plastic is too small I think.
I'd go ahead and re-pot one asap. You'll see the root mass and act accordingly for the other plants.

Suggestion... As to not flip the plant upside down and avoid unnecessary trauma, I'd cut open the plastic pot with a dremel or whatever. 1 Vertical cut on each side and separate the pot. Of course prepare the new pot in advance, filling the soil around a dummy/empty 3 gal pot so the form is just right. The plant should fit right in without any trauma. The plant should be in-between waterings, not too dry but I like more dry than wet because you are going to give a watering after. Do not pre-wet the new soil, but give a full watering once re-potted.

If you put compost in your new soil, I'd go real easy on the nutes because the compost is already a fertilizer.

 

[MotaFina]

I'm using Fox Farms Ocean Forest mixed with a high-quality local potting mix with lots of earthworm castings and perlite added. I wonder if the buffering ability of the EWC only lasts a couple of months.

More and more, I'm becoming convinced that the high acidity in EJ is causing the yellowing. I think you've been able to offset it by adding the lime. Here's an FAQ from Hydro-Organic's FAQs:

14. I mixed a solution using the Earth Juice Original Formulas "Advanced Chart" and my pH is 3.90?

Earth Juice will work in harmony with the medium and self adjust.

Since 1991, the mass majority of gardeners — including us — who use the Earth Juice Original formulas simply mix with water and use without adjusting the pH.

The initial pH of Earth Juice Original formulas will generally be on the mild acidic side. This is primarily due to the natural extracts, phyto-acids and protein (amino) acids contained in Earth Juice formulas. Earth Juice will self-adjust as it breaks down in the medium. In general terms: primarily by releasing naturally chelated Calcium along with Potassium and natural occurring beneficials. These various elements will aid in buffering the natural and beneficial phyto-acids (weak acids).

If you prefer to adjust the pH prior to using here are several suggestions or options:

— Always mix with potable Tap Water and use a high-quality professional planting mix that contains pH adjusters: lime, dolomite, oyster shell, etc.

— Aerate the solution for 12-24 hours. After the aeration period, if the solution exhibits an increase in the pH, do not adjust and use as-is. If there is no increase in the pH, adjust to the desired pH and use. For the next mix, prior to the aeration process, adjust the pH to 4.5 followed by aerating for 12-24 hours. After this period, if there is no increase in pH, adjust to desired pH and use.

— Add, with caution, a liming material to the medium: dolomite, oyster shell, etc.

— See the Earth Juice "Advanced Plus" chart. The initial pH using the "Advanced Plus" chart will generally be a bit higher.

— Try a partial substitution of Earth Juice Big Bloomin' Guano for proportions of the Earth Juice Bloom. Example: 1 tsp/gl Earth Juice Bloom + 3 tsp/gal Big Bloomin' Guano. Use Big Bloomin' Guano during the Vegetative period at 1-3 tsp/gal.

— To keep it easy without any worries, use Amazon Bloom as your medium and follow the Amazon Bloom "Keep It Simple" chart.

I hope I'm not too late to turn it around. My current plan is to start being really careful to get the mix into the 6.0 range before feeding. That'll take a lot of PH UP. I'm considering transplanting the 3-gal pots to 5 or 7-gal too and then add some granular Dolomitic Lime to the soil at the bottom. Not sure I want to transplant this late in the game though.

 

[BluePhoric]

I would transplant at least ONE PLANT asap, to assess the root problem.

It's not that big a trauma if done correctly. Plants will hardly notice, but will gain root space. Speed and minimal manipulation is key.
I don't think the EJ PH is the main cause, but you are right to think that the earthworms castings are exhausted, and there are probably more roots than soil in the pot, so uptake is difficult. In the meanwhile, adjusting PH manually is the right choice until soil can do a better job at buffering.

Your FFOF may already contain something acting similar to lime (sea creatures), it's ph adjusted to 6.3-6.8. I'd go easy adding Lime into the soil mix. You can't add it to old soil, only to new soil... witch may already contain what it needs. In that regard, I'd stick with adjusting the PH in the watering mix instead of the soil.

FFOF does not contain much nutrients for mature plants, and should be mixed.
My recommendation would be 50% FFOF, 30% perlite, 20% shrimp compost. Keep it simple.
Fluffy soil will promote root expansion.

If the roots you see are too packed, the root ball may have to be loosened a bit, but that may be scary in terms of plant shock.

It's true it is late in the game to do such moves, but the alternative is loosing your plants I think.

Can you get some experienced growers in here ? Are Pennywise and DemonicAngel subbed to your thread ?