Minimum flowering height?

[TorturedSoul]

Lets say we have two identical clones(growth, nutes, enviro etc).

From the same mother? I would not expect to see much variation if all clones are the same age, we re rooted the same way (and to uniform results), subjected to the same stresses and the same environmental, nutritional, and light (color + intensity + hours), et cetera.

Fully rooted they stand 5 inches tall.

Clone1 is allowed to grow untouched, clone2 has training done to lower the height and widen the canopy.

After 1 month of veg, Clone1 is let's say 20 inches tall, clone2 however is only 12 inches tall.

Well, you are no longer talking about identical clones. Plants with different orientation - and height, generally, for indoor lighting - are no longer receiving exactly the same amount of energy. Training (vs. untrained) moves certain auxins around, which change which part(s) of the plant get the most energy... Again, they are no longer identical clones.

Their general growth characteristics ought to be close, again depending on how close the two plants are. But both plants are no longer the same size/shape/mass, probably... Has the plant size to root zone / container (medium) volume ratio thus changed? Etc. But things ought to be close. General length of flowering should be pretty much spot-on, so I'd guess that the stretch period would also be identical in length or at least very close. Rate of stretch... I could let you know at harvest time, if you've kept your log up to date, lol.


Do you know the exact flowering time for the clones' mother? I could predict the length of the stretch period from that (given a reasonably normal grow).

Both are flipped to 12/12 and stretch 3x the original size

Is that an assumption, for the sake of argument, or have you flowered clones from the same mother before? Because the amount of stretch can vary both by strain and among different phenotypes of the same strain. You can even see some variation in stabilized inbred lines (IBLs), although that'd be more like a bell curve, I think, with the bulk of the population falling between a relatively narrow range.

Will clone1 stretch to a total height of 60inches, and clone2 stretch to 36 inches? Or will they both stretch to 60 inches?

Are you going to cease all training of the formerly trained clone? (...and return it to a vertical stature in such a way that it once again matches its sibling?) If not, that'll be a change, too.

In other words, does the stretch go based off actual height, or actual growth? As in, clone2 would have grown to 20inches had it not been trained.

Again, I would expect the stretch period to be similar in length, but the rate of growth during the stretch period is like... well, like the usual rate of growth, lol. In generalities, it is governed by strain and phenotype selection. But just about every change is going to affect your rate of growth in some way - either as a positive or a negative - even if the amount of change is very small. If you want to know the answer to your question, what you do is to pay attention to what you do, how you do it, how the plants respond, et cetera - and keep track of this data. Then, after harvest time, you can look back and answer that exact question - but only for that particular strain. Really, for clones of that mother, lol, but for that particular phenotype, at least.

That's why people who grow the same strain multiple times tend to increase their production by at least a small percentage over time. They can predict with reasonable certainty how the plant(s) they're growing will perform best (and how it can be expected to perform under less than ideal conditions, which may be... useful knowledge if there is an issue in the grow room that must cause a compromise in the grow).

BtW, clones tend to flower in slightly less time than their mothers. That would indicate that the stretch period would be shorter in the number of days, too.

 

[pakman91]

It looks like I have far more to learn still than I thought.

I haven't yet flowered this strain, I haven't actually flowered before at all as I'm yet to have a suitable area.

Can you expand on the training in flowering idea, I was somewhat under the impression that you wanted to limit training in flowering and cease a few weeks in?

I've mainly been researching sea of green though as that's what I plan to do.

If training in flowering can be used to reduce some of the vertical height taken up during the stretch period then scrog may be the way to go with this little tent.

Many thanks for the continued sharing of your knowledge and experience, I'm a cautious n00b who really needs to understand something before jumping into it. Some of this information you can't just find in Google.

 

[Weaselcracker]

Yes training is generally done throughout the stretch period. It's actually the most important time to do it. At some point they stop stretching and settle down to serious flowering. But there is still lengthening growth for the first half of flowering, in the form of buds growing upwards. Usually people just let the buds grow upwards after the stretch, but you don't absolutely need to. It's true that by early flowering they do get harder to train. Branches get stiffer and more locked in position by the end of stretch- and harder to manipulate.

Sometimes I let the buds grow upwards for the first 1/2 or 2/3 of flowering, then I tie them down horizontally on the scrog screen. I call this the BOG- Bed of Green. It works well with one of my strains (Pineapple Chunk) which tends to flop all over the place anyway and make a chaotic mess. So I lay all the buds out flat next to each other in a more orderly fashion to ripen.

But to back up a little, in this stoned and confusing post, here are some techniques to learn-
LST- you probably already know- a process of tying branches. Use pipe cleaners they're the best.

Supercropping- very handy both for slowing growth and to facilitate bending. You can soften up a stem by supercropping it- then bend it whichever way you want. Then tie it in place with a pipe cleaner.
- when I say tie, I mean a simple 180° kink in the pipe cleaner is enough to hold, and can be pulled free again with a firm tug.

Splints. When you break a limb supercropping or bending- grab a twig (usually about 1/8" thick and three or four inches long) or whatever else is suitable (meat skewer, toothpick, whatever is stiff and lightweight). I align the broken stem and use a pipe cleaner wrapped around it to hold the splint on.

Scrog. As I said- a scrog screen is simply something to tie to for the purposes of LST. Nothing more magical than that. It's very simple and easy. Any sort of wire or heavy plastic mesh will work, or you can make your own mesh with string. 3 or 4 inch spaces are best IMO.

UHHHHH... I'm worried this post will make no sense. I'm stoned. I'm going to quit while I'm ahead and ho make dinner. Any specific questions just ask.

I suggest you just plunge in and do it. Try supercropping some of your plants- look around for a screen or make one. This is all simple stuff but you need to learn by experience. More effort typing all this gibberish than it is just doing it.
But I failed typing. While it's plain to see that Tortured Soul got an A+

 

[pakman91]

Knowing that you should train through the stretch is very reassuring, I'm definitely feeling more confident to jump in and do it.

Ive played around with topping, lst and a little bit of supercropping(and taping broken stems) so I feel like I should be good to go in this space.

Do you think that 5k LED's would be of any assistance to flowering, or just some ww cfls?

Thanks again.

 

[Geraldine42]

There is no one answer to your question. The problem is that they all do what they do. Sometimes they stretch more than others, even two clones from the same mom can react differently. Definately the stretch is less with clones. Plants started from seed will grow upwards of an inch a day in flowing. But clones don't stretch nearly as much. There are no height restrictions for flowing. As long as its a clone and has roots started you can flower it.

 

[TorturedSoul]

It looks like I have far more to learn still than I thought.

Knowing how much one doesn't know... is valuable knowledge, itself . We all have much to learn about just about everything. But life would be so boring otherwise, eh?

I haven't yet flowered this strain, I haven't actually flowered before at all

Well, congratulations on taking the plunge! This will be a general learning experience. If you find reason to keep the strain around, it will also begin your knowledge library's section on specific strains and how they behave.

I was somewhat under the impression that you wanted to limit training in flowering and cease a few weeks in?

"A few weeks in" could be the end of the stretch phase of flowering, so one would have no reason for training. Speaking in terms of training during the initial 40% of the flowering period, though... Like everything else, you'd do it if you had a reason. For example, imagine a scrog grow. There's a screen (/grid) down low in your grow space. You have been training throughout the vegetative period - you've kept the plant below the screen by only letting each growing tip grow up enough to provide the additional length to move it to a different hole (and, BtW, promote mad branching, lol); this is a daily task, for the most part. If you switch to flowering before your screen is completely full, you have the option of continuing to do the dance until all or at least most of your holes are filled with growing tips. It would be counterproductive to continue such training all the way through the stretch phase, because you'd end up with no upward growth to speak of. If you've (only just) filled your screen when you switch your lighting schedule to flowering, you'd allow all of those growing tips to grow upwards - and that would be the point when you'd need to finally start raising your light(s) - and expect bud growth to fill in along them. "In real life," lol, it might be the case that you end up switching when your screen is mostly, but not completely, full. If so, you'd continue training for part of the stretch, then allow vertical growth for the remainder.

Any given light source... There's a thing called the inverse square law of lighting, or something like that. Basically, the intensity of a light decreases as the square of the increase in distance. IOW, you want your lights as close to the surface of the leaves as you can safely get them (actual spacing guidelines vary by type of lighting and wattage). Additionally, it'll only penetrate so far into a canopy (especially a dense one, which is what you're shooting for, lol). Lower-intensity light sources have much less ability to penetrate than higher-intensity ones. Knowing that, you'd also use training methods in order to encourage a canopy that YOUR specific light setup is capable of supporting in full flower. You'd also want to remove undergrowth that is not receiving - or going to receive - sufficient light. Think of it as a waste of the plant(s) limited resources.

I've mainly been researching sea of green though as that's what I plan to do.

Ah... Let's consult the Wayback Machine, shall we?

Here's a little thread that you might find informative:
Come SOG with Me - 112 Plant - 2 Liter - Hempy SOG

If training in flowering can be used to reduce some of the vertical height taken up during the stretch period

Training during flowering has been done since at least as far back as the first person found out what flowering a 100% sativa was like... the hard way. You have to do what you have to do. What may be far less than optimum in one situation could be something that saves a grow in another. With severely limited space, you'll almost certainly end up training the entire time that you have appreciable vertical growth.

Asking questions, reading in the various growers' sections, and browsing the journal sections will all add to your knowledge. Growing your own will do that and add to your experience. Hopefully, you'll begin building not just responses to specific situations, you'll also be gaining the experience that'll help you when you face something new that you haven't experienced before.

Many thanks for the continued sharing of your knowledge and experience

Spreading the knowledge is half the reason we're here (the other half being to learn something ourselves). You'll be able to help others one day. Who knows, one of them might be someone that once helped you.

Branches get stiffer and more locked in position by the end of stretch- and harder to manipulate.

Sometimes, boosting the... Doggone it, I'm too tired to remember (and CRS :rolleyes3 ) it's either potassium or phosphorous, but one of them can sometimes aid in flexibility. It's not guaranteed to make much difference, though. I noticed when I added supplemental silicon that my branches became less flexible. There may be other specific elements that increase/decrease flexibility, IDK.

I'm worried this post will make no sense.

You gave several terms to enter into our search engine which will add information, and you've also typed a bit about them. Works for me.

I'm stoned.

Smoke one for me, lol. All I've got are some "discard" leaves. A buddy stops by now and again and says after the fourth or fifth 1½ bowl that he's pretty high and doesn't want any more. Personally, I think he's just politely trying to get out of trying to "choke any more of it down" .

Knowing that you should train through the stretch

can

Do you think that 5k LED's would be of any assistance to flowering, or just some ww cfls?

Every little bit helps. I'd consider some 6,500K lighting in the mix throughout flowering, in an attempt to lessen stretch.

But clones don't stretch nearly as much.

I would guess this is due mostly to the different root system (and, sometimes, less of it) that clones have. But that's just a guess.

 

[handjive4mota]

next you guys will start measuring the internodal distances and evaluating the CO2 uptake as well as microscopically evaluating the
stomata and the chlorophyll producing areas. Just because you make it APPEAR to be difficult and scientifically intense does not
necessarily make it so and damn sure does not make the smoke any better! Check out the word "sate", what you people are doing is adding bullshit on top of bullshit with a bare minimum
of return. this shit is not as complicated as a lot of you wish it to be, real simple if you let it be and quit trying to make this like the
2nd coming of Christ. Pseudo scientific proclamations touting theory as fact sure screws up the works.

 

[Guy Cavallero]

Yeah so you've vegged them a few weeks already? I would switch them to flowering now then. They'll probably grow budsicle type things. Hard to say how tall/long. You say they're in 'a' pot but I assume/hope you mean each one has it's own pot? Either way - 3x3 cm is teeny. Time to repot.
Look into LST. (Low stress training). Drill a few holes around the rim of the pots so you have something to attach to - and pick up a pack or two of pipe cleaners to tie them down and bend them with. The plants are very malleable and you can pretty much wrestle them into whatever shape you want.
Given that they're bag seed - you don't know what you're going to get. A higher chance of hermies, possible males, and possible very stretchy plants.
The last scenario is manageable- the first two, not so much.

Here is a good example of a plant ready for flower that is only 4" tall. At this point she was only 27 days old. Lots of LST from the start.

 

[Guy Cavallero]

next you guys will start measuring the internodal distances and evaluating the CO2 uptake as well as microscopically evaluating the
stomata and the chlorophyll producing areas. Just because you make it APPEAR to be difficult and scientifically intense does not
necessarily make it so and damn sure does not make the smoke any better! Check out the word "sate", what you people are doing is adding bullshit on top of bullshit with a bare minimum
of return. this shit is not as complicated as a lot of you wish it to be, real simple if you let it be and quit trying to make this like the
2nd coming of Christ. Pseudo scientific proclamations touting theory as fact sure screws up the works.

Lmfao.....handjive......you're too much!

 

[Geraldine42]

next you guys will start measuring the internodal distances and evaluating the CO2 uptake as well as microscopically evaluating the
stomata and the chlorophyll producing areas. Just because you make it APPEAR to be difficult and scientifically intense does not
necessarily make it so and damn sure does not make the smoke any better! Check out the word "sate", what you people are doing is adding bullshit on top of bullshit with a bare minimum
of return. this shit is not as complicated as a lot of you wish it to be, real simple if you let it be and quit trying to make this like the
2nd coming of Christ. Pseudo scientific proclamations touting theory as fact sure screws up the works.

Just because you don't think it makes a difference in the quality of the smoke doesn't mean that it doesn't. If the person asking wants to know the science it is up to them. Will it grow without anything special done to it. Obviously....but if you want to get of a higher quality you should pay attention to every detail cause it all makes a difference.

 

[Guy Cavallero]

Hers a scenario. How about a pail like you could buy nails or screws in at Home Depot. They're about 12"×12"square, about 4" tall and about would hold easily 3-4 L of growth medium. LST or Scrog the plant, low square pot (with decent root growth space avaiable).......that could work with your setup......no?!

 

[pakman91]

OK so I'm definitely going to go for a scrog in there.

I have a few questions regarding the setup, but I'll save them for tomorrow as I have to go to bed for work.

One quick question though which comes from Guy Cavallero's last post, with such limited height, would a wider, more shallow pot be more suited? Like a tray for instance.

Greatly appreciate all the help and info guys, so glad I joined this forum.

 

[Geraldine42]

Not as shallow as a tray but yes wider would be better for you plants to spread out with our compromising on the vertical space.

 

[Guy Cavallero]

OK so I'm definitely going to go for a scrog in there.

I have a few questions regarding the setup, but I'll save them for tomorrow as I have to go to bed for work.

One quick question though which comes from Guy Cavallero's last post, with such limited height, would a wider, more shallow pot be more suited? Like a tray for instance.

Greatly appreciate all the help and info guys, so glad I joined this forum.

My thoughts too. With enough room to grow healthy roots I can't see an issue. Just give it enough room to grow. Those pails would be a good size for an LST attempt and a Scrog too in limited space.

 

[TorturedSoul]

next you guys will start measuring the internodal distances

Measure? No. Pay attention to? Why would you not? It's like every other bit of observational data that your plants produce - they all tell you something about your plant(s).

Just because I've seen a cannabis plant growing out of a crack in a sidewalk doesn't mean I should give it a comparable level of care and effort that the poor "street kid" plant was receiving.

and evaluating the CO2 uptake

CO₂ uptake is part of a relationship between ambient temperature and the amount of (light-)energy that a plant receives. This is well understood and has been for years. There is no need to "evaluate" it.

well as microscopically evaluating the stomata

Ah, okay, now I get it, lol. Ol' Tortured Soul is dense at times and somewhat slow, but even I can eventually spot bullsh!t :rolleyes3 . No harm. I have been known to dispense a little now and then myself (I try to spread it over the garden out back, assuming it's well-aged). Still, since I've already wasted effort responding, what's a little more?

No need to "microscopically evaluate" the stomata. Basic common sense tells a person not to pull bonehead moves where one's cannabis garden is concerned, and it regards to the stomata, that means not smoking (anything!) in the grow space or otherwise coating them with contaminants, because they function poorly under such conditions.

and the chlorophyll producing areas.

Again, a little dab of common sense is all one needs for this. Hint: Those are the green parts, lol (the chloroplasts account for the color, more or less).

Just because you make it APPEAR to be difficult

No, you're just choosing to act as if that were the case. The whole point is that this stuff is easy. Of course, it does help to have at least the basic observational and problem-solving skills that the average fifth-grader possesses - and to use them. And knowledge helps, too. Why would anyone want to NOT know something? I can think of lots of people throughout history who had that kind of attitude and, for the most part, their stories did not end well. Often, they were only footnotes in the tome of human existence...

and scientifically intense

LIFE is intense. REALITY is scientific. Taking the lazy way and following the fantasy route hardly seems like a good alternative.

does not necessarily

Doesn't necessarily? So you're at least conceding the fact that it sometimes does, lol? IOW, you're admitting to the validity of my posts.

does not make the smoke any better!

Err... Good gardening practices and common sense tend to produce better "smoke" (so to speak) by way of healthier plants, more bud (a heavier harvest) and often does produce stronger bud (as an unhealthy plant or even one that is less than it should have been) obviously has less energy available - and more demands on that energy.

Check out the word "sate"

Check it out? Why, has its definition changed since I learned that one way back in grade school?

bullshit on top of bullshit

Okay, I confess. I really do just shoot the sh!t once in a while - but that's only when a bunch of us are hanging out on the weekend bench-racing.

not as complicated as a lot of you wish it to be, real simple

I never inferred that growing - and successfully harvesting - cannabis was complicated, or difficult. If you looked at the simple stuff that I've posted in this thread and gotten the opposite idea, well... I'm not responsible for the level of your competence, skill set, and/or ability to understand simple English. I always enter a conversation with the assumption that the people I'm talking to have at least a reasonable amount of intelligence. If I overestimated in your case, I hereby apologize. But it has been my experience that if a person has to put forth at least a modicum of effort, they'll benefit more (and retain more). Whereas, if you talk down to them, they tend to just get p!ssed-off. So, again, I assume the person on the other end of the conversation has something between their ears.

 

[Weaselcracker]

next you guys will start measuring the internodal distances and evaluating the CO2 uptake as well as microscopically evaluating the
stomata and the chlorophyll producing areas. Just because you make it APPEAR to be difficult and scientifically intense does not
necessarily make it so and damn sure does not make the smoke any better! Check out the word "sate", what you people are doing is adding bullshit on top of bullshit with a bare minimum
of return. this shit is not as complicated as a lot of you wish it to be, real simple if you let it be and quit trying to make this like the
2nd coming of Christ. Pseudo scientific proclamations touting theory as fact sure screws up the works.

Personally I put the scrog screen on at the time I move my plants to the flowering room. I just jam the screen down on top and pull the limbs through. After that I tie down any stretching branches and supercrop when needed to keep things under control. It's not complicated.

Sorry you find this thread too scientifficy. I don't have much troll food on hand. Sometimes doing stuff is easier than explaining it. Maybe you can explain to the OP how to manage plants in his tiny space, without making anyone's head hurt too much?

 

[pakman91]

Not as shallow as a tray but yes wider would be better for you plants to spread out with our compromising on the vertical space.

Thanks for the reply, so would a wide, shallow planter promote more of a squat stature as the roots grow outwards rather than down.

I know the old willow trees where I grew up would never grow past their roots, but would grow upwards instead until they were trimmed and would grow outward again.

I wonder if cannabis plants are somewhat the same?
None of the plants I've vegged have greatly exceeded the sides of the pots(naturally), well the leaves will, but not so much the stems.

Perhaps a wider more shallow pot would work great. If I'm completely off, at least it'll save me a few inches of height for growth!


Thanks again for all the info and support guys.

 

[Weaselcracker]

Worth a try. You'll have to really keep on top of the watering and not let those shallow roots dry out.

Plants vary. Where I am we have some of the tallest spruce trees in the world and they root very shallow and wide. When one of those big trees topples over there is a root mass sticking thirty or forty feet in the air.
A auto grower I know swears that the height is partly determined by the height of the pot. She says when the taproot hits the bottom that's their cue to stop putting on height. If so a shallow pot would fit well for you.

 

[pakman91]

As far as the floorspace is concerned, would I be best to go for a few small plants, or perhaps one in a big lowline storage tub? Of even a few plants in one?

 

[Guy Cavallero]

From what I gather and from what makes sense to me.....it's much easier to handle, prune, water etc if their are 3-4 plants in that space in 3-4 gallon pots. It'll be easier to move them around and also check weights for when they need watering. Also, you can't go by "I watered 3 days ago, it's time to water again", each pot should be checked individually , so keep a record of what and which you're attending to.