Measure pH directly in soil or from run-off water?

[JB42]

If its a water tester which I think it is then no thats not best to do. If you need to check soil pH which you dont really, then get some soil out of your pot mix it into some water and let it sit for an hour then test that. But run off will probably be best like your doing.

Personally I dont pH soil grows only coco run off grows and the feed before I water it. If you really are going to pH soil then just Ph your feed first, that should sort it out.

 

[Jupiter79]

That's what I suspected after I learned about the buffering effect in soil, that I just have to ph the feed solution and that should do it. Seems to work fine.

Really nice tip though about mixing some of the soil with water and let it sit for an hour and then test it. I always doubted the accuracy of the ph-tester when testing in soil (you get different readings depending on how wet the soil is). Thanks m8.

 

[Jupiter79]

Hello!
Since it's been a while after the last post was written here, I take the risk of anyone not reading this, but if it reaches the guys who helped me out in here before, or any new readers who if they read the thread will see the conclusions. I wanna thank JB42 and Fuzzyduck because their advice proved out to work out really fine.

The buffering effect of soil makes it somewhat unnecessary to pH with soil. I'm still pH-ing, but only the water or nutrients that go in the plant, not any run-off or soil pH. But observing and learning about the buffering effect made me realize I don't have to be that strict about it though. I mean I pH, but it's not really a big problem if the pH is slightly off. e.g. if I get my water down to pH 7,2-7,3 from 8,0 it's better to leave it there than to persist and add even more unnecessary chemicals like ph-up or-down just to get it down to that perfect range of 6,2-6,8 (or something like that). Because the buffering effect in the soil will balance it out anyway.

Finally; eventhough JB42 gave the advice to not pH at all in soil. I think that's sensible, but like I said I still pH, but only the stuff that goes in and also not that much, if I don't have to. Because it just feels to me that it's working better. I had grows before where I didn't pH the water (8,0) or feed solution (which was on the lower side) and it seems that taking it down (or up) a bit works better, but I'm not really sure. I might pH even less and see what happens.

And I also tried to observe the difference between spraying the plants with water that is pH-ed and not pH-ed. It's the same here, it feels like the plants like the ph-ed water better. But I don't know, there's really no soil involved when the plants are just sprayed on with water, so it's a somewhat different topic.

But in the case with soil I think all the advice was really good and again thanks.
Also the advice on flushing and watering techniques was very helpful. Eventhough I watered every day without overwatering them, it is better to water every 3 days instead give or take. You guys know your shit.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Thank you for taking the time to observe the self buffering effect of soil.


It means even more that you have recently replied back with positive results

 

[Jupiter79]

Yes it was nice to get help that actually worked. In many threads different people juct comes and tells you a lot of different things and you end up at the same point you sltarted at. And reading other threads on this topic was confusing.
I tried ph-ing soil and run-off with llttle success eventhough I found many threads where people said that's what you should do.
Trial and error, that's what it's all about

 

[GigaGrew]

@fuzzy
i need a little help getting my head around this soil buffering belief.

what happens if the soil you have is for Ericaceous plants. are you saying that it somehow buffers itself to the correct ph for our growing needs?

just trying to make sure my advice is accurate as there are so many soil types out there and there is an awefully big economy based on ph amendment in standard agri.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

@fuzzy
i need a little help getting my head around this soil buffering belief.

what happens if the soil you have is for Ericaceous plants. are you saying that it somehow buffers itself to the correct ph for our growing needs?

just trying to make sure my advice is accurate as there are so many soil types out there and there is an awefully big economy based on ph amendment in standard agri.

Yes in theory Ericaceous compost should self buffer & also i believe that coco coir has a self buffering nature also (classed as mildly acidic compost/growing medium)!

I view most composts/soil as ambient PH battery & all will buffer back to close/near original value of compost mix inless extreme circumstances exist.

But the self buffering nature can be observed with a PH soil probe or a digital probe before & after watering to several hours later with noticeable effect.
A short term change of PH is hardly worth a quibble in long term health of plant in less an extreme change is present !

But would take note of water source used !

But i've come across articles regarding acidic based composts & the use of hard water containing high levels of calcium carbonate which has effected the PH value over matter of a few weeks increasing compost PH value closer to the neutral range.

It is more than likely that hard water use, can effect soil/compost PH also to mild degree !

As calcium carbonate (more or less alkaline mineral) deposit over time in compost/soil/coco coir etc & may even suggest inert growing mediums such as perlite/clay pebbles as well !

Calcium is a slow moving mineral/ micro nutrient which takes time for plants to absorb so a build up is possible effecting PH value of growing medium, to what extent may be viewed on how hard you water is !

Note on Nutrients

A large majority of nutrients are acidic to mild acidic in nature, i would be more careful with the use of synthetic/mineral salt nutrients as deposits of minerals may cause a shift of PH, hence we often see a flush used once in awhile aprox every 2 weeks or a feed, water regime being used to prevent such occurrence to keep PH in balance.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

The only time i've seen Ericaceous plants suffer...

Was if grown in ericaceous compost & transplanted into an alkaline soil the compost is adversely effect by the stronger source of PH, in less a proper ericaceous nutrient feed was applied or other measures used to adjust PH/nutrient requirements for ericaceous plant to survive well !

 

[GigaGrew]

so if i had a field availible and the soil was say either 5ph or 7ph and only relying on rain water, mixing in amendments are not really needed or or wont improve yield enough to cover their own cost?

ill be well pleased if you can help me get this right in my head as im new to the outdoor stuff.

in this same scenario i would be amending drainage (probably grit rather than perlite) and mixing in rock dust to mineralise and 1 year aged home compost pre seeded with mycorrhizae. then ideal completly covered in mosquito net and inhabited by lady birds, lol.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

How do you measure the PH of your soil? I have the Milwaukee cheapo $20 ph tester, I always assumed it only works in water so I have only ever tested water runoff. Can you just stick that thing in the soil?

You can pick up cheap soil/moisture meters from most good garden centres or DIY stores with a garden section, best not to leave em in soil for prolonged periods of time as they get messed up quickly.

Place in soil for 15 minutes aprox to get reading and then remove for storage or before taking next reading to keep em working well.

Blue Lab do a digital model also but costs a lot more !

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

so if i had a field availible and the soil was say either 5ph or 7ph and only relying on rain water, mixing in amendments are not really needed or or wont improve yield enough to cover their own cost?

ill be well pleased if you can help me get this right in my head as im new to the outdoor stuff.

in this same scenario i would be amending drainage (probably grit rather than perlite) and mixing in rock dust to mineralise and 1 year aged home compost pre seeded with mycorrhizae. then ideal completly covered in mosquito net and inhabited by lady birds, lol.

Well they are some variables here !

Soil of field will still self buffer over time but whether its PH value of soil is suitable for growing MJ with out nutrient defs is at question, i may even go into structure of soil or loam type !

But amendments to improve soil structure & PH will be more likely required to grow with out any real problems applied once a year at a suitable time, more likely at the end of the growing season to prepare soil for next season if not 6 to 8 weeks prior to planting


Basically a soil/compost under PH 5.5 will start to cause P-phosphorus deficiency & lock outs if more acidic, unfortunately phosphorus is rather slow moving nutrient as in uptake in soil hence we may often see P def occur in late veg & early/mid flowering.

P - phosphorus is best available in soil between PH 6 & 7 in less using a chelated form which i suspect most hydro (water nutrients) & coco coir or mineral salt for soil nutrients do have, organic nutrients might be a different matter tho !


Acidic soils will require liming/dolmite to improve PH.

More lime is required if soil is an acidic clay based soil tho, can not remember why at present but some thing to do with the clay !

Aeration of clay soils is also important so the addition of of gravel/perlite/grit is useful to aid drainage !

Manures are also in the neutral to mild alkaline PH range which will help change PH of soil if acidic & aids in moisture retention more practical if growing in a sandy soil type loam & offers low NPK plus trace micro nutrients also improving humus content !



Now with a soil of PH 7, i wouldn't really worry to much in the long run !

I may go as far as adding a bag of 100% peat based compost (acidic) to help lower the PH a little on a yearly basis to help buffer soil PH for improved growing, they are other options tho... but peat is easy to get hold off.



But other wise if growing in a field of barren nature/uncultivated, i would seek soil improvements/amendments & if PH of soil/soil structure type/loam is known advice can be given to the best of my knowledge to improve the soil.

 

[GigaGrew]

ok so basically for the purposes of this conversation, soil for mj has 3 levels of soil ph perfect-tolerable and intolerable.

it appears that your saying (for smaller soil grows like pots) that if the soil is in the tolerable catagory you dont need to do anything except ph your feed? as it will set itself correctly over a little time, but if your soil is intolerably acidic then you too would suggest dolomite to calm it down to tolerable?

personally i would like to make a compost entirely out of rock dust, seaweed and MJ scraps, leave it mature for a year and have it studied to see what amendments that would need to become my all purpose soil/compost/feed.

im not a fan of using peat brother, its easy to get hold of now, but its running out and we are destroying natural habitats to claim the last of it =(

do you have any knowledge of 'cropping to amend'? ie planting a certain crop on your land, only to destroy it and turn it into the soil to improve the soil.
i think yarrow is one of these plants.
it would be nice to learn a crop rotation system that is based on mj to keep the soil as we need it.

while we are on the topic of testing soils, do i remember right that we have sponsors to analyse soil and maybe water?
i tried to find, but seem to be having a blonde moment.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

ok so basically for the purposes of this conversation, soil for mj has 3 levels of soil ph perfect-tolerable and intolerable.

Perfect would be some where between PH 6 & 7, tolerable PH 5.6 to 6/ 7 to 7.5 intolarable below PH 5.5 or greater than 7.6 this is the area ya more likely start to come across nutrient defs for MJ, inless shortage of micro nutrients from regular nutrients used for feeding of a non chelated form !

it appears that your saying (for smaller soil grows like pots) that if the soil is in the tolerable catagory you dont need to do anything except ph your feed? as it will set itself correctly over a little time, but if your soil is intolerably acidic then you too would suggest dolomite to calm it down to tolerable?

Soil will self buffer to a degree no matter what PH the feed is ! you just have to be careful of synthetic/chemical based mineral salt nutrients, where salt build up can effect PH level over time or very hard water use...

Acidic soils will require a dosage of dolomite lime to raise PH to a more agreeable level & best applied a few months before hand/growing for it to take best effect !

PH of nutrient feed is really not needed with organics as its the PH of the soil which really matters, i suspect most hydro formulated nutrients are chelated & will cover a wider range of PH for best nutrient uptake.

personally i would like to make a compost entirely out of rock dust, seaweed and MJ scraps, leave it mature for a year and have it studied to see what amendments that would need to become my all purpose soil/compost/feed.

Its possible & would more than likely look at the moisture retention of mix in the long run, rock dusts take awhile to break down to make the nutrients available for the plant to use its a rock after all, but the well rotted sea weed should do the job in the short term, might want to think about adding worm castings also.

Might be more concern about balance of nutrients as not to cause adverse effect...

Each and every amendment used has a PH value also !

im not a fan of using peat brother, its easy to get hold of now, but its running out and we are destroying natural habitats to claim the last of it =(

Ye peat is a big thing at present, i know where ya coming from & with in several years i think it won't be available on the market... from what i've read from trade mags/articles coco coir blends are showing good results !

do you have any knowledge of 'cropping to amend'? ie planting a certain crop on your land, only to destroy it and turn it into the soil to improve the soil.
i think yarrow is one of these plants.
it would be nice to learn a crop rotation system that is based on mj to keep the soil as we need it.

Yup i've come across organic farmers using Green Manures but this is often practiced with a rotation of plots used for growing over a 3 to 4 year period, basically means a plot is left fallow (no growing) for a year or two before its used again to improve soil via decaying green manures which are often mowed to produce debris/compost or dug in at end of season.

while we are on the topic of testing soils, do i remember right that we have sponsors to analyse soil and maybe water?
i tried to find, but seem to be having a blonde moment.

Not sure about that one ?

You can buy soil PH test kits from most garden centers tho...

Water content as in minerals etc PPM can often be found on water companys website may take some digging around to find it tho & related to tap water... but its available, in less rain water which i believe is classed as soft water or that well water/river water may require further research of area where well/river is located due to bedrock or over laying of land which water source is derived from !

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

One of the most basic characteristics of soil is its composition. In general, soils are classified as clay soils, sandy soils, or loamy soils. Clay is nutrient rich, but slow draining. Sand is quick draining, but has trouble retaining nutrients and moisture. Loam is generally considered to be ideal soil because it retains moisture and nutrients but doesn’t stay soggy.

To determine your soil type, take a handful of moist (but not wet) soil from your garden, and give it a firm squeeze. Then, open your hand. One of three things will happen:

1. It will hold its shape, and when you give it a light poke, it crumbles. Lucky you—this means you have luxurious loam!

2. It will hold its shape, and, when poked, sits stubbornly in your hand. This means you have clay soil.

3. It will fall apart as soon as you open your hand. This means you have sandy soil.

 

[GigaGrew]

the soil in my planned plot is almost black loam topsoil with a clay/rocks bottom.
the water im interested in having looked at is river water with fish in it. would be lovely to just be able to put my plants in any soil and just feed them river water for the nitrates, lol.

thanks for all the info fuzzy =)

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

A dark coloured soil would suggest a very humus & nutrient enriched soil thats pretty good in my books

But would check PH of soil just in case PH soil amendments are required, soil best used for PH check should be taken from soil 6" below surface !


As an organic veg grower myself i do use sea weed myself best applied at end of season late autumn/early winter to rot down prior to spring planting/early summer planting & would suggest the same for dolomite lime or other soil enrichment amendments so it has time to break down for the following season & be at its best use

 

[stoopingcrane]

do you have any knowledge of 'cropping to amend'? ie planting a certain crop on your land, only to destroy it and turn it into the soil to improve the soil.
i think yarrow is one of these plants.
it would be nice to learn a crop rotation system that is based on mj to keep the soil as we need it.

.

Check out the short video on "the one seed revolution" or if your not into brevity the book is like a bible to me. Not for MJ crops but every year I plant a legume crop , fava, soy, or clover whatever i have seeds left over from. Cover crops or green manure should allow for nitrogen-fixing symbiotic bacteria in root nodules that fix atmospheric nitrogen in a form that plants can use. That is fancy talk i took off wika, in my head the plant brings nitrogen from the atmosphere and when left on as green manure decompses into the other macro nutrients and micro nutrients. I have only done this with food crops but the science in sound and my soil never needs amending. Its a tiny two cents as fuzzy is great at answering your questions. and thank your fuzzy, rep added

 

[thulgrum]

Hi all
Newbie grower here. Came across this post and was quite surprised by your watering regime....
Im growing 4 plants in an 8x4ft area. They are in approx 7.5 gallon buckets and each plant gets approx a 1/2 a gallon of water twice a day