Mars-Hydro LED Grow Light Discussion

Re: Area-51 Spectrum

Hi, king! thanks for your help!:goodjob::thanks::high-five:
KingJohnC said:
The so called Area 51 spectrum is not the same spectrum that the real Area 51 LED panels use. The so called Area 51 spectrum is a custom ratio chosen by jon705 for his review of the Top LED Light Mars II panels.

@jon705
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Re: Area-51 Spectrum

SmokeSara said:
Hi,az2000. "Area 51 spectrum" is the flower spectrum.:)
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Thanks. I didn't realize there was a flower, full and veg spectrum. That must be new since the last time I looked at the Mars page(s).

Can you tell me the spectrum and ratio used in flower versus full? I'd like to understand how they differ. For example, the Mars page says full spectrum is:

430~440nm, 450~475nm 620~630nm, 650~660nm, IR, and white

Can you tell me how many bulbs of each, and the temperature of the white? (e.g., 6200k).

And then provide the same details for Flower and Veg configurations?

Thanks!
 
artthug said:
The full spectrum is far more effective, even for flowering. I mean its FULL SPECTRUM after all! :allgood:
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I've been reading on other forums "area 51" (apparently the "flower" spectrum) is the one to get. That's why I'm curious about exact specs.

Area 51 is a poor name to use. For the longest time I thought it referred to Area 51's spectrum (which is published). Apparently it's just a term to denote a custom "skunk works" spectrum developed by an innovated customer(?) and adopted by TopLED as their "flower" spectrum. I hope I understand this now. I've been trying for a long time. :) And, exact specs will help even more.

I like to know what I'm getting into, how it compares to competitors like Area 51, Fero and Grow Northern (who all publish exact spectrum and ratios).
 
Re: Area-51 Spectrum

I can tell you the spectrums. but I can not tell you the ratio:
430~440nm, 450~475nm 620~630nm, 650~660nm, IR, and white this is standard spectrum, white has 2500~3500K and 6500~7500K.
620~630nm, 650~660nm, IR, and white this is flower spectrum
430~440nm, 450~475nm and white are vege spectrum.

az2000 said:
Thanks. I didn't realize there was a flower, full and veg spectrum. That must be new since the last time I looked at the Mars page(s).

Can you tell me the spectrum and ratio used in flower versus full? I'd like to understand how they differ. For example, the Mars page says full spectrum is:

430~440nm, 450~475nm 620~630nm, 650~660nm, IR, and white

Can you tell me how many bulbs of each, and the temperature of the white? (e.g., 6200k).

And then provide the same details for Flower and Veg configurations?

Thanks!
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Hosebomber said:
Why would they want to give out the work of their engineers or other peoples ( like Jon and myself that have had custom spectrums made) ratios so people can have anyone make the light without any of the research or cost to develop them?
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Nutrient manufacturers develop their own special blends of nutrients and minerals. Would you accept the rational that this should be "secret" -- prospective customers shouldn't know what they're feeding to their plants because "someone might copy my secret?"

Like a nutrient, a we feed light to our plants. Anyone can analyze a nutrient for presence and strength of components. Pretending it's a secret would only hinder consumers from making informed decisions. With a light, it's even easier to dissemble the light and examine its components. Leading names (like Fero, Grow Northern, Area 51, et. al.) recognize this information could never be "secret" and therefore hiding it only creates an illusion that the light stands on a "secret sauce" -- not quality, integrity, innovation and service.

I'd like to hear from Sara if this is TopLED's position. I hope it's not. I know the big names are respected for their transparency.

Thanks,
 
I wouldn't consider Fero or Grow Northern leaders... they are cidly resellers at best. Area 51 took a lot of heat for stealing their spectra from members of the riu forums. While I understand what you are getting at, you are missing the point. You can analysis anything and find out what it's made from. Yes Miracle grow will tell you what the level of nuits are... but they are not going to tell you how they made them water soluble or time released etc. The spectra is what separates one company from another.

I have spent years of my time and tens of thousands of dollars of my own money testing what ratios of LEDs work the best. I would be highly upset if someone was to give my spectra out without repaying me for my time and effort.
 
Hosebomber said:
I wouldn't consider Fero or Grow Northern leaders... they are cidly resellers at best.
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It's all relative. They charge top-tier prices. They spent resources developing spectrum and ratios. Fero has gone into great detail why they made their choices, and why they've remained with them. Grow Northern developed it's new "Rebel" modules. They published those details from the beginning.

Choosing to use a commoditized light fixture (Cidly) doesn't diminish their investment in "blend of light food." In fact, their commoditized fixture/components reduces what makes them unique -- adding to any incentive to differentiate themselves through the allusion of a "secret sauce."

Hosebomber said:
Area 51 took a lot of heat for stealing their spectra from members of the riu forums.
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People shared ideas, learned from each other, and contributed to the evolution of technology -- all on a public forum -- and they're sore that someone monetized that public information, and makes their ongoing spectrum choices public? That's "stealing?"

Doesn't that sound a lot like the absurdity of denying a consumer the knowledge of what they're feeding their plants (because "I need to pretend a mysterious edge exists to sell my product" -- while the consumer could dissemble the light and examine the components)?

Hosebomber said:
You can analysis anything and find out what it's made from. Yes Miracle grow will tell you what the level of nuits are... but they are not going to tell you how they made them water soluble or time released etc.
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And an lighting manufactuer (such as those who manufacture HPS) may not share their manufacturing techniques, source suppliers nor their research which guided them to a certain color curve. But, they don't hide that curve. They openly publish it so consumers can make an informed decision about what they're being asked to "feed" their plant.

Hosebomber said:
The spectra is what separates one company from another.
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Service, integrity, trading relationships and reputation are what separates one company from another. Manufacturing processes which affect longevity, etc. Claiming to maintain a "secret" when one doesn't exist is self-deception. It does a disservice to a company's reputation -- not enhance it.

Hosebomber said:
I have spent years of my time and tens of thousands of dollars of my own money testing what ratios of LEDs work the best. I would be highly upset if someone was to give my spectra out without repaying me for my time and effort.
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That's your right. If you sold lights it would be my right to choose to support other sellers who are more transparent about things that aren't, by definition, opaque.

I appreciate your contribution to testing and advancing the technology. But, there are many who have spent relatively precious resources (time and money) learning to grow -- and proceed to share the fruits of that investment with newbies. We're a community and pretending a measurable, identifiable, discoverable piece of knowledge is "secret" doesn't do anything for the community. It's a long established trend that color spectrums (or ratios) are published -- going back to HPS bubs.

Having said that, I'll repeat that I'd like to hear from Sara if this is TopLED's position. I believe you and I have explored our differences sufficiently.

Best regards, and again, thank you for what you've done to advance the community. No disrespect has been intended.
 
Another Sugar Black Rose 21 days in flower under the Top Led 3w reflector............:circle-of-love:
DSC058172.JPG
 
I'm starting to wonder if it is possible to make this clear to you. EVERY company has (or acts like) they have something better than or different from the others that they do not and will not release. Coke doesn't tell people how their soda is made, nor does Pepsi. This is why we have IP, copyright, trademarks, and patient laws. Those companies you named do not offer anything new or different. FYI Area 51 WILL NOT release the binning of the diodes they use and I'm still waiting to hear back from someone that has taken one apart if the actually are Cree diodes. Fero doesn't even have a website anymore... not sure if they are even around anymore. The process and phosphors used in HID lighting IS the trade secret, that is what makes the difference in their spectrums.

Sara has already stated that she will not give out their ratios. The simple fact is, they reply super fast to all orders and request, are very polite, well versed in their field, ship just as fast as they respond to emails, have replaced or repaired any failed items (there have and always will be a few) at no cost to the customers and in near record times, and have some (if not the) lowest prices for LED grow lights that have proven results is the reason they have a 300+ page post about their product. By all means, if you want to have 100% of a company's research and knowledge before you purchase their product, attempt to do so... but you will be starving to death with nothing to drink but water in short order. Get Area 51 to tell you what bin of Cree diode they use before you order from them... they won't. So you are left with one option... Grow Northern. There are plenty of people that can tell you about Cidly LED and their great 3 year warranty and getting replacement parts, cause once you purchase the light... they are the warranty holders.

For everyone else reading this, let me be perfectly clear in stating that I have not done a grow with TopLED lights as of yet. I do have two of their panels I am testing, but in no way am I stating that they are the best light the world has ever seen. I'm still testing them. I can say for a fact that Sara was always fast in response, worked with me very well, and they have the best price per watt that I have seen. No they were not given to me and no I have not been paid by Sara or TopLED. You have seen the grows with them here and other places, make your own decision.
 
yes Hosebomber, you are absolutely right. that is why we do not want to give out our spectrum ratios. we have been on this market for a long time. we give out a lot lights FREE to get the right spectrum ratio. Engineer study, customers test. we cost a lot on money and time. so we want to keep in secret.
Hosebomber said:
Intellectual property is expensive sir. Why would they want to give out the work of their engineers or other peoples ( like Jon and myself that have had custom spectrums made) ratios so people can have anyone make the light without any of the research or cost to develop them?
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We can not tell u the spectrum ratio we are using,. as a manufacture, we can make the light as you requested, you can tell us your spectrum ratio, and even you can draw led layout on PCB, we make for you. this way you know what you are using . and you can negotiate with other growers.
az2000 said:
Nutrient manufacturers develop their own special blends of nutrients and minerals. Would you accept the rational that this should be "secret" -- prospective customers shouldn't know what they're feeding to their plants because "someone might copy my secret?"

Like a nutrient, a we feed light to our plants. Anyone can analyze a nutrient for presence and strength of components. Pretending it's a secret would only hinder consumers from making informed decisions. With a light, it's even easier to dissemble the light and examine its components. Leading names (like Fero, Grow Northern, Area 51, et. al.) recognize this information could never be "secret" and therefore hiding it only creates an illusion that the light stands on a "secret sauce" -- not quality, integrity, innovation and service.

I'd like to hear from Sara if this is TopLED's position. I hope it's not. I know the big names are respected for their transparency.

Thanks,
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IMAG07746.jpg

Here is my new setup with my 144x3w reflector series light from tooled. Loving it so far, plants seem to be loving it also! They have only been under them for 4 days. They were under cfls beforehand and they are about two weeks into the 12/12 cycle after being vegd for one month. Middle plant is dinachem, three days into 12/12
 
thank you Hosebomer, We know each other around one year ago. and you placed your order last month. I believe you do a lot research:) and I knew you know most led grow light manufacture and reseller. you are very familiar with different led grow light companies. I learnt a lot knowledge about lighting from your post.:)
Hosebomber said:
I'm starting to wonder if it is possible to make this clear to you. EVERY company has (or acts like) they have something better than or different from the others that they do not and will not release. Coke doesn't tell people how their soda is made, nor does Pepsi. This is why we have IP, copyright, trademarks, and patient laws. Those companies you named do not offer anything new or different. FYI Area 51 WILL NOT release the binning of the diodes they use and I'm still waiting to hear back from someone that has taken one apart if the actually are Cree diodes. Fero doesn't even have a website anymore... not sure if they are even around anymore. The process and phosphors used in HID lighting IS the trade secret, that is what makes the difference in their spectrums.

Sara has already stated that she will not give out their ratios. The simple fact is, they reply super fast to all orders and request, are very polite, well versed in their field, ship just as fast as they respond to emails, have replaced or repaired any failed items (there have and always will be a few) at no cost to the customers and in near record times, and have some (if not the) lowest prices for LED grow lights that have proven results is the reason they have a 300+ page post about their product. By all means, if you want to have 100% of a company's research and knowledge before you purchase their product, attempt to do so... but you will be starving to death with nothing to drink but water in short order. Get Area 51 to tell you what bin of Cree diode they use before you order from them... they won't. So you are left with one option... Grow Northern. There are plenty of people that can tell you about Cidly LED and their great 3 year warranty and getting replacement parts, cause once you purchase the light... they are the warranty holders.

For everyone else reading this, let me be perfectly clear in stating that I have not done a grow with TopLED lights as of yet. I do have two of their panels I am testing, but in no way am I stating that they are the best light the world has ever seen. I'm still testing them. I can say for a fact that Sara was always fast in response, worked with me very well, and they have the best price per watt that I have seen. No they were not given to me and no I have not been paid by Sara or TopLED. You have seen the grows with them here and other places, make your own decision.
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Thank you Dennise
Dennise said:
Well I love my Top Led lights and I have done complete grows with them and you are all welcome to check out the journal in my signature....:yahoo: and I'm a real person....:circle-of-love:
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