Lollipopping, do you do it and when?

[cbdhemp808]

outdoor is a totally different animal. if you defol outdoor is it for air circulation, and to avoid bud rot. your assuming what you do outdoor works in a totally different grow style.

defol or not is a completely moot point outdoor. we're talking about an indoor practice. it's completely different conditions to your situation.

but wade in anyway. it's good to have another perspective even if not totally on the same page.

I disagree again, and I'm not assuming anything. There is overlap between indoor and outdoor.

Here's what I was responding to:

buds themselves don't use the light. there is nothing in the bud that photosynthesizes. it's a popular misconception that they'll develop better if fans are removed to expose the bud sites...

And here's how I responded:

In the case of my outdoor grow, light and heat are important to the health of the buds, because this reduces moisture. I'm dealing with insane bud rot here.

I identify that I'm talking about my outdoor grow, and I'm not saying this applies necessarily to indoor grows, but in some cases it could apply.

Buds are composed of bracts, sugar leaves, and stem material. The sugar leaves are obviously photosynthesizing, like all green leaves; however, their surface area is much smaller, and they are often covered with trichomes.

Meaning, you're wrong... the sugar leaves in buds do photosynthesize, regardless of indoor or outdoor.

More solar exposure for the trichomes could also be a good thing, because UV light increases THC. The effect on terpenes I don't know, but increased terpenes would also imply disease and pest resistance.

Doesn't apply to indoor, except in rare cases where growers are actually using UV light. Correct?

Naturally, the biggest colas are at the top of the plant, with maximum solar exposure. From the plant's point of view, this is exactly what the plant wants for reproduction. We humans just want to get more yield.

Indoor plants do the same thing as outdoor plants – they don't know they are indoors (as far as we know).

 

[Wastei]

Every green part of the plant contains chloroplast cells and therefore photosynthesizes. You talk about misconception about buds not being able to photosynthesizes when they actually do?

To what degree is another question but it's not good to spread misinformation. It's to a bigger degree than you might think since you see plants survive all kinds of stresses and finish without any fan leaves, especially outdoors in temperate climates?

I'm strongly against heavy defoliating but it has its purpose and function and every grow situation is not the same as yours.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Every green part of the plant contains chloroplast cells and therefore photosynthesizes. You talk about misconception about buds not being able to photosynthesizes when they actually do?

To what degree is another question but it's not good to spread misinformation. It's to a bigger degree than you might think since you see plants survive all kinds of stresses and finish without any fan leaves, especially outdoors in temperate climates?

I'm strongly against heavy defoliating but it has its purpose and function and every grow situation is not the same as yours.

Hey @Wastei, dunno if you know this, but you can highlight part of a person's post, click reply, and the highlighted part will appear in the reply that you are editing. That helps eliminate any question about who you are addressing your comments to.

From my grow, a couple tester plants... this girl still had some fan leaves, but really didn't finish... pot too small, heavy senescence... I tossed everything. The genetics weren't great.

I got a small harvest from this CBD pheno, and toward the end she was mostly sugar leaves, which were all covered with trichomes. She was hit with PM at the end also... first time I've seen PM close to harvest.

 

[Chrondocious]

outdoor is a totally different animal. if you defol outdoor is it for air circulation, and to avoid bud rot. your assuming what you do outdoor works in a totally different grow style.

defol or not is a completely moot point outdoor. we're talking about an indoor practice. it's completely different conditions to your situation.


but wade in anyway. it's good to have another perspective even if not totally on the same page.

I would still defoliate outdoors. The sun is strong but it can be shaded. I think it serves the same purpose. Especially on the big trees.

 

[bluter]

I disagree again, and I'm not assuming anything. There is overlap between indoor and outdoor.

lighting exposure and the way the plant grows is markedly different outdoor and in greenhouse. structure changes accordingly.

I identify that I'm talking about my outdoor grow, and I'm not saying this applies necessarily to indoor grows, but in some cases it could apply.

considering you are greenhouse growing, air circulation becomes a factor, similar to indoor. it's not something that is usually an issue outdoor, unless in very high humidity. this is where the defol practices will overlap.

Meaning, you're wrong... the sugar leaves in buds do photosynthesize, regardless of indoor or outdoor.

the sugar leaves don't photosynthesize enough to mean shit. if you don't believe me go yank off all your fans and see what you get.

Doesn't apply to indoor, except in rare cases where growers are actually using UV light. Correct?

only to a degree. overexposure to uv will degrade trichomes and cause other light avoidance and damage in the plant.

uv should be used sparingly indoor. most indoor white light rigs carry enough that extra really doesn't need to be added.

Indoor plants do the same thing as outdoor plants – they don't know they are indoors (as far as we know).

they sure do. they adapt to conditions early and the structure and size changes. outdoor plants in the right conditions will grow much larger than anything that can be produced indoor.

it's a matter of having access to 180 degree light, and the ability to grow unconstricted. the plant itself is the same, but it will naturally take advantage of what is available.

I would still defoliate outdoors. The sun is strong but it can be shaded. I think it serves the same purpose. Especially on the big trees.

there are definitely reasons to defol outdoor. preventing mold is one, the main reason it's done is to lessen aggravation come harvest. it's always easier to process a plant that has undergone a defol/ training regime.

 

[Sparkey224]

lighting exposure and the way the plant grows is markedly different outdoor and in greenhouse. structure changes accordingly.





considering you are greenhouse growing, air circulation becomes a factor, similar to indoor. it's not something that is usually an issue outdoor, unless in very high humidity. this is where the defol practices will overlap.




the sugar leaves don't photosynthesize enough to mean shit. if you don't believe me go yank off all your fans and see what you get.






only to a degree. overexposure to uv will degrade trichomes and cause other light avoidance and damage in the plant.

uv should be used sparingly indoor. most indoor white light rigs carry enough that extra really doesn't need to be added.






they sure do. they adapt to conditions early and the structure and size changes. outdoor plants in the right conditions will grow much larger than anything that can be produced indoor.

it's a matter of having access to 180 degree light, and the ability to grow unconstricted. the plant itself is the same, but it will naturally take advantage of what is available.







there are definitely reasons to defol outdoor. preventing mold is one, the main reason it's done is to lessen aggravation come harvest. it's always easier to process a plant that has undergone a defol/ training regime.

Well said bluter

 

[cbdhemp808]

lighting exposure and the way the plant grows is markedly different outdoor and in greenhouse. structure changes accordingly.

agreed.

considering you are greenhouse growing, air circulation becomes a factor, similar to indoor. it's not something that is usually an issue outdoor, unless in very high humidity. this is where the defol practices will overlap.

agreed. Even though my greenhouses have open or semi-open screen walls, defol to help air circulation due to high RH and mold.

the sugar leaves don't photosynthesize enough to mean shit. if you don't believe me go yank off all your fans and see what you get.

OK, so you actually meant that if you compare the photosynthesis of sugar leaves and fan leaves, sugar leaves photosynthesize less – not that sugar leaves don't photosynthesize. If you took the surface area of the sugar leaves (non-trichome covered) and compared it to an equal surface area of fan leaf, it would likely be the same.

But I get what you are saying... removing a fan leaf above a cola reduces photosynthesis surface area. I agree.

only to a degree. overexposure to uv will degrade trichomes and cause other light avoidance and damage in the plant.
uv should be used sparingly indoor. most indoor white light rigs carry enough that extra really doesn't need to be added.

OK... not my department. Apparently my greenhouse plastic blocks UV.

they sure do. they adapt to conditions early and the structure and size changes. outdoor plants in the right conditions will grow much larger than anything that can be produced indoor.

it's a matter of having access to 180 degree light, and the ability to grow unconstricted. the plant itself is the same, but it will naturally take advantage of what is available.

Sorry, I wasn't super clear on that... "Indoor plants do the same thing as outdoor plants – they don't know they are indoors (as far as we know)."

I just meant that, given the same pheno, same soil, same nutrients... the plant is just doing it's thing, and responding to the inputs the same way. Agreed, the typical indoor environment is much different, mainly in terms of lighting, but other factors as well, and the plants will respond differently.

There's nothing stopping a grower from growing very tall/big plants indoors – but I'm guessing hardly anybody does that, and certainly not home growers.

there are definitely reasons to defol outdoor. preventing mold is one, the main reason it's done is to lessen aggravation come harvest. it's always easier to process a plant that has undergone a defol/ training regime.

Agreed.

 

[SmokingWings]

the sugar leaves don't photosynthesize enough to mean shit. if you don't believe me go yank off all your fans and see what you get.

I believe that if we were to take each individual sugar leaf and any small 3 finger fan leaf and spread them out we would be surprised just how large of a coverage there is. Multiply that by the number of buds.

The question is how much actual coverage comes from all those buds. And we have to include all the other plant parts or material that is green because it has chloroplasts and chlorophyll. This can include the petiole, stems, flowers, fruits, and seeds. We have to remember that we have to include the green stems.

It all adds up and each part contributes to what the plant needs.

6CO2 + 6H2O ? C6H12O6 + 6O2
Photosynthesis is the closest we have to true magic in our lives.

 

[bluter]

we have to include all the other plant parts or material that is green because it has chloroplasts and chlorophyll. This can include the petiole, stems, flowers, fruits, and seeds. We have to remember that we have to include the green stems.

the leaves are the only part of the plant that photosynthesizes. the rest is either what it produces or a system to move nutrients to support that work.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Speaking of leaves... I just posted this

Quest for mold-resistant strains, Hawaii outdoor greenhouse grow

Continuing from the above post... Next up... I'll look into the lineages of the above amazing terpinolene-dominant CBD strains, and come full circle to the legendary Sour Tsunami and Harle-Tsu. I'll take a brief look at ACDC and Cannatonic, and the mysterious Early Resin Berry (ERB). One...

www.420magazine.com

 

[SmokingWings]

the leaves are the only part of the plant that photosynthesizes. the rest is either what it produces or a system to move nutrients to support that work.

I have been chasing this down for a couple of years as part of looking up and understanding why so many growers encounter yellowing leaves about 2 to 3 weeks after their plants start flowering. It seems to always come back to a lack of enough Nitrogen. Nitrogen is needed for plant cell development and for the existence of chlorophyll. There is enough green plant material in the flower bud that these plants need more Nitrogen than some growers are providing for potted plants.

All parts of a plant that are green are capable of photosynthesis. Almost all parts of that plant will have the chloroplasts and as long as there is chlorophyll present then photosynthesis can happen.

While the major area of photosynthesis will be the larger leaves it is the smaller sugar leaves, the brachts, and even the stems that can contribute to the total amounts of sucrose that the plant produces and uses.

Supposition since I have not researched it, but I figure that older parts of the plant like the stems that have a thicker and brownish-gray bark no longer have the chloroplasts nor any chlorophyll near the surface though those same parts once did.

Plant trivia: Cactus plants do not have leaves. They are primarily stem and that green stem is where the photosynthesis happens. Any spines or 'prickers' are a form of modified leaf...but they are modified and not a true leaf.

 

[Chrondocious]

I have been chasing this down for a couple of years as part of looking up and understanding why so many growers encounter yellowing leaves about 2 to 3 weeks after their plants start flowering. It seems to always come back to a lack of enough Nitrogen. Nitrogen is needed for plant cell development and for the existence of chlorophyll. There is enough green plant material in the flower bud that these plants need more Nitrogen than some growers are providing for potted plants.

All parts of a plant that are green are capable of photosynthesis. Almost all parts of that plant will have the chloroplasts and as long as there is chlorophyll present then photosynthesis can happen.

While the major area of photosynthesis will be the larger leaves it is the smaller sugar leaves, the brachts, and even the stems that can contribute to the total amounts of sucrose that the plant produces and uses.

Supposition since I have not researched it, but I figure that older parts of the plant like the stems that have a thicker and brownish-gray bark no longer have the chloroplasts nor any chlorophyll near the surface though those same parts once did.

Plant trivia: Cactus plants do not have leaves. They are primarily stem and that green stem is where the photosynthesis happens. Any spines or 'prickers' are a form of modified leaf...but they are modified and not a true leaf.

Great explanation.

 

[bluter]

While the major area of photosynthesis will be the larger leaves it is the smaller sugar leaves, the brachts, and even the stems that can contribute to the total amounts of sucrose that the plant produces and uses.

stems fruits etc are missing the mesophyll. it takes chlorophyl and mesophyll cells for photosynthesis. mesophyll is not present in stems fruits etc. in amounts that would contribute. mesophyll cells are particular to leaf structures. many leaves only have them on one side as well.

only reason i remember is it was all part of a university exam that i got seriously run over on.

Plant trivia: Cactus plants do not have leaves. They are primarily stem and that green stem is where the photosynthesis happens. Any spines or 'prickers' are a form of modified leaf...but they are modified and not a true leaf.

algae, cactus, and ferns, all developed earlier and have mesophyll cells throughout. plants which came later were more advanced and are more specialized.