Living Organic Soil, RO water, and pH: what's the deal here?

Old Salt said:
I grew up about 1/2 hr from you in the Stratford and the Sebringville areas.
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Yes!! Love Stratford, great town


If you wish, you could run your tap water through one of the chloramine filters available at the big online malls. You could mix this at a ratio of 1:9 to 1:3 with water from the RO (bigger number). This would give your plants some minerals.

Emilya can tell you if this is a good solution. I have similar numbers to your water with the addition of ten times the allowable arsenic level from my well. I have to use water from my RO. It's very expensive for me, as 75% of the water going to the RO comes out as waste. Add in that my well is going dry during our summers, and you get the picture.
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I can do this -- our water is perfectly safe, just unfortunately has super high pH, TDS, and chloramine levels.

Chloramine is nothing -- can be nuked with Seachem Prime and a bit of shaking
pH -- well, people keep saying don't worry about it even though it sounds weird to me
TDS -- this is the one I'm not sure about.

If the chloramines are gone, pH is "within range", but simply has high TDS -- is this still detrimental?
 
triangle said:
Yeah man ours is mega hard too. What makes hard water so bad, if the water is within an acceptable pH and has no chlorine and chloramine, you'd think it would be fine.. but I guess there's more to it?
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I don't know, as I grow using drain-to-waste hydroponics with a coco/perlite substrate, and Mega Crop for nutrients. It's a whole different ball game, which is why I called Emilya. She grows in LOS, so rather than give you a W.A.G, I called a pro.

W.A.G. = Wild A$$ed Guess.
 
You still have quite a bit of prep work to do before that soil can support a grow all by itself. An organic soil is not necessarily a living soil that has been mineralized and populated with millions of microbes so as to be able to support a plant all through the grow. The microbes need to grow in number and turn that large pot of soil into a living medium, but that certainly is not going on yet in your smaller containers. To keep this completely organic, you need to use compost teas or a full range microbial inoculant to get those levels up in your smaller containers, or you are going to have to feed ready to use nutes. Many LOS growers only have one or two very large containers, and they start and finish in there so as to take advantage of the microbes.
You need to do some research on your aquarium based anti chloromine product and make sure that it doesn't have a poison in it. Many people have suggested using aquarium products to dechlorinate our water and they are always reminded that this can be a huge problem. Luckily, one vitamin C tablet in a bathtub sized container of water will easily dechlorinate the water of both chlorine and chloramine. Setting chloramined water out has no effect at all.
Regarding pH... anyone recommending that pH is a critical factor for you in this living organic soil project doesn't know what they are talking about. Again, microbes don't care about pH. Only synthetic nutrients chelated with EDTA, care about pH.
 
Emilya said:
You still have quite a bit of prep work to do before that soil can support a grow all by itself. An organic soil is not necessarily a living soil that has been mineralized and populated with millions of microbes so as to be able to support a plant all through the grow. The microbes need to grow in number and turn that large pot of soil into a living medium, but that certainly is not going on yet in your smaller containers. To keep this completely organic, you need to use compost teas or a full range microbial inoculant to get those levels up in your smaller containers, or you are going to have to feed ready to use nutes. Many LOS growers only have one or two very large containers, and they start and finish in there so as to take advantage of the microbes.
You need to do some research on your aquarium based anti chloromine product and make sure that it doesn't have a poison in it. Many people have suggested using aquarium products to dechlorinate our water and they are always reminded that this can be a huge problem. Luckily, one vitamin C tablet in a bathtub sized container of water will easily dechlorinate the water of both chlorine and chloramine. Setting chloramined water out has no effect at all.
Regarding pH... anyone recommending that pH is a critical factor for you in this living organic soil project doesn't know what they are talking about. Again, microbes don't care about pH. Only synthetic nutrients chelated with EDTA, care about pH.
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I can set up my 150 gallon bed any time, I’m just spooked to do it. I thought, and I guess mistakenly, you suggested multiple stage up pots

RE the Seachem Prime, wouldn’t it be poisonous to the aquatic life if that were the case? Anyhow I was recommended it via a NoTill guide on reddit
 
triangle said:
Just because I had plants get deficiencies before and a lot of people out there were saying my untreated RO could be a huge culprit. And then also heard when combined with a high spec LED it literally can take a double dose
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Bro science bro, just sayin.

If you grow in soil, and you're having issues lets ask a few questions.

Whats in the soil?

If you're running bagged soil you bought somewhere, its likely not good quality enough to get your plants to finish properly.

Only way to tell is a soil test.

Then you can look at your water when you know your soil is dialed in.
 
I'm very familiar with that soil mix. Its very close to what I use and I know a few growers in Ontario GTA that use it with GREAT success.

You should have no problems growing organically in that soil mix. Nothing but RO water all the way you will be fine.

You need to introduce Mycorrhizae to the roots when you plant your seedlings and I always add more at up pot. Also to get the soil going you need to introduce bacteria as well. A good way to do that is take some EWC (earth worm castings) and kelp meal and make a tea.

ACT - Aerated compost tea with an air pump and air stone the bigger the better in a 5 gal bucket of RO water.

1 cup EWC + 1/2 cup kelp meal + RO water - aerate for 24 hours water in dont save any extra.

Can try some Bokashi to get the bacteria party started as well.

For larger plants in organic soil. Bigger roots bigger shoots so a larger container will get you larger yields.
 
Water softener has a lot of salt in the water that will build up in the soil in a container and likely kill your plants and the soil.

RO filters are getting pretty cheap too. I just bought a 5 stage under counter with tank and faucet was less that $200 US and took me like 45 minutes to install. I only had 2 leaks that took me 10 minutes to fix. lol First one was a doozy, had a pretty nice puddle going.

I was reading that RO filters work really well alongside the water softener.

Our old home we had city water only thing we used it unfiltered for was washing dishes and taking showers.
 
Hi Triangle. I have the same water specs as you do. Also I'm running LOS. I have to use a ro filter and it brings my water to 47 ppm. It's still somewhat high but it grows good plants so far. No ph necessary. You have good advice from the others especially since Old Salt knows what soil you have. Pics?
 
i haven't been able to get a straight answer , does a 4 stage r.o. system remove the chloramines from the water also ,as i have one and my ppm wont get below 9 and i have a water softener also , and my ph comes out at 5.7 from the system., i have been using this water for all my previous coco/perlite grows (many ) with great results but i have just started a l.o.s. (made my own soil ) , city of cambridge does use chloramine in its water , just wondering will this kill my microbes or is the r.o. system removing them ,i was thinking about adding a u.v. system to it to help after the r.o. system, any thoughts ?
 
NOOOBIENOT said:
i haven't been able to get a straight answer , does a 4 stage r.o. system remove the chloramines from the water also ,as i have one and my ppm wont get below 9 and i have a water softener also , and my ph comes out at 5.7 from the system., i have been using this water for all my previous coco/perlite grows (many ) with great results but i have just started a l.o.s. (made my own soil ) , city of cambridge does use chloramine in its water , just wondering will this kill my microbes or is the r.o. system removing them ,i was thinking about adding a u.v. system to it to help after the r.o. system, any thoughts ?
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The four stage RO will remove chlorine and chloramine. I strongly recommend replacing the carbon block filter with one specifically designed for chlorine such as the "Pentek ChlorPlus 10 Carbon Block Filter Cartridge," The filters will last longer.

The UV option many RO systems have is to kill off any microbe which may make their way through the RO membrane or into the tank. It won't matter for your plants.

I do recommend you also use the RO for all your drinking water, and for this I'd include the UV option. You'll be amazed at the improved taste of all of your beverages. This is the Tim Horton's secret for their coffee tasting the same from coast to coast; no matter how bad the municipal water is at their location.
 
NOOOBIENOT said:
i haven't been able to get a straight answer , does a 4 stage r.o. system remove the chloramines from the water also ,as i have one and my ppm wont get below 9 and i have a water softener also , and my ph comes out at 5.7 from the system., i have been using this water for all my previous coco/perlite grows (many ) with great results but i have just started a l.o.s. (made my own soil ) , city of cambridge does use chloramine in its water , just wondering will this kill my microbes or is the r.o. system removing them ,i was thinking about adding a u.v. system to it to help after the r.o. system, any thoughts ?
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You RO filter WILL REMOVE chloramine. 420% on that. I'm a swimmer sometimes competitive swimmer (coming back from injury last summer). I'm allergic to chloramine from swimming in it over time.

Chlorine reacts with urea (yea exactly what you think it is) to create chloramine gas. This gas is heavier that air and will sit on the surface on the pool in a pool area with crappy ventilation. Go swimming for an hour, I get a good dose of it and it makes me sick. So did a lot of research and its actually the reason we went with RO filter in the house many years ago. I had to switch to a different pool for training. Someone had a heavy hand with the water treatment at the pool that was making me sick. Problems solved.

Water companies will use chloramine gas to treat city water certain times of the year.

Also as a side benefit, RO filter will remove Lead and Chloride - keep your brain healthy so we can treat it with THC annnnd more problems solved. lol

Whomever tested RO water with anything over say 20ppms, there's something wrong with the RO membrane. Maybe time for a replacement. Our water tests at 12ppm from a fresh new filter and 12ppms from a filter I've been running for 3 years without a change.

We are supposed to replace the charcoal filters every 12 months and the RO membrane every 3 years or so.. I replace mine when the PPMs get up over 15ppms then I start thinking about getting a replacement. Both my RO filters have a pre-filter charcoal stages. I added another pre charcoal filter for my straight well water I'm using thru the RO filter to water plants with. The softened water gets thru another RO filter for us to use for cooking/drinking.

@Old Salt has it right!

Our home filter has a separate UV light deal. MUCH larger than what comes with an RO filter. The bulb is like 32" long in ours. I just replaced that the other day and ordered a replacement bulb. They like $35. Supposed to change them out annually, my last one took a dump after 9 months.
 
What about only 3 stage

I have a PentAir 3 stage GRO

Pentair FreshPoint GRO-350B 3-Stage Reverse Osmosis System

The GRO-350B can handle 50 gallons per day (GPD), and reduces an impressive list of harmful contaminants including Chlorine, Fluoride and Lead, to name a few. The Pentair/Pentek Freshpoint Residential Reverse Osmosis System is the newest technology for home water filtration. The drinking water...
www.freshwatersystems.com

I'm in St. Jacobs
 
A three stage RO is great for a well, but not for a municipal or shared water supply that has been treated with chlorine or chloramine. These chemicals will destroy the RO membrane very quickly. A four stage with a sediment, carbon, and carbon block filter is needed for these. The fifth stage is usually a re-mineralization stage to give the water some taste, and is not needed for our plants. The same holds true for a de-ionizing stage. A UV filter may provide some benefit, as it's used to kill any microbes that may pass through the remainder of the system.
 
I've used a 3 stage for several years now with good result. I have the RO Buddie 3 stage 50 gal per day running now for my grow. With an added carbon filter on the front end to catch the big particles (well water).

Water softener and filter with a professional sized (30") UV lamp then into the home and the 5 stage for drinking.

We have a 5 stage with pressure tank (under $200) from Apex for hoo-man consumption. Its got a extra carbon block instead of a re-mineralization stage.

If proper diet you don't need minerals put back in the water IMHO.

If you're vegan or vegetarian, it wood probably help.

Double info there... sorry.
 
i am under the the impression that a special carbon filter is required to remove chloramine from water , that a regular activated carbon filter isn't strong enough to do this and now it becomes the job of the r.o. filter to do that and chloramines destroy r.o. filters very quickly from all the reading i have been doing , i believe we were talking about filtering chloramines before on a different post mr brown .
 

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