Living Organic Soil, RO water, and pH: what's the deal here?

[triangle]

Reverse Osmosis system is working at peak performance, pH from faucet at a near perfect 7.0 and a TDS/PPM of under 20

Have suffered deficiencies in previous grows and overwhelming consensus seems to say LED + RO water means additional Ca/Mg is a must

So I bought this stuff: CaMg+ by General Organics | Planet Natural

and this stuff to adjust pH which is pro-beneficial: TNB Naturals pH Up & Down | Hawthorne Gardening Company

After adding the CaMg+ from General Organics, the water pH plummets (NOT rises) to around 5.6 pH.

So what do I do? So much ridiculous conflicting information out there about people claiming with organics you don't need to pH.
Well are those people taking into consideration that other peoples untreated tapwater can contain chloramines and ridiculously high TDS? So those of us resort to RO. And then find out "Oh our advice wasn't meant for RO"..

Would greatly appreciate some advice! Thank you in advance

 

[Old Salt]

@Emilya is a very good person to ask.

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi @triangle and welcome to the forum!

If you are running a true living organic soil grow, you have no need to worry about pH. The ONLY reason we need to adjust our pH is so that our nutrient solutions can be within the proper pH range that allows synthetically chelated nutrients (synthetic nutes) to be mobile within the soil and be able to be used by the plant. Outside of this need, there is no reason to adjust pH. In a LOS grow, the microbes in the soil are taking care of breaking down the organics and feeding the plant, and they don't care about the pH, as long as it is within the large broad range that allows life to keep going, or roughly between 8.0 - 5.0... so essentially we growers never have to do anything to adjust it.
And yes, usually when running RO (no minerals dissolved in it) and under bright LED light, you usually do need additional ca and mg. This however does not mean that you then need to adjust the pH... just let the microbes take care of it once you have added the organic version of calmag.

 

[bobrown14]

Reverse Osmosis system is working at peak performance, pH from faucet at a near perfect 7.0 and a TDS/PPM of under 20

Have suffered deficiencies in previous grows and overwhelming consensus seems to say LED + RO water means additional Ca/Mg is a must

So I bought this stuff: CaMg+ by General Organics | Planet Natural

and this stuff to adjust pH which is pro-beneficial: TNB Naturals pH Up & Down | Hawthorne Gardening Company

After adding the CaMg+ from General Organics, the water pH plummets (NOT rises) to around 5.6 pH.

So what do I do? So much ridiculous conflicting information out there about people claiming with organics you don't need to pH.
Well are those people taking into consideration that other peoples untreated tapwater can contain chloramines and ridiculously high TDS? So those of us resort to RO. And then find out "Oh our advice wasn't meant for RO"..

Would greatly appreciate some advice! Thank you in advance

Dont do anything. Toss the calmag and quit changing the water pH. If its anywhere between 5.5pH and 7.0pH you will be ok.

Try this as an experiment.

pH test your RO water as it comes out of the tap.
Let that same water sit out in a bucket overnight
pH test it again.

Now do the same experiment adjust the pH of the water out of the tap and let that adjusted water sit out in a bucket overnight and pH test it again.

If you think I'm full of it, do the same tests with rain water.

Your RO water is just about pure water. So when testing pH its going to be close to 7pH and thats fine. My RO water tests at about 6.5pH.

Edit: If your growing in soil the ONLY way to tell if you need calmag is a soil test. Without that you have no idea if you need it or not. So I err on the side of caution and do not use it.

There are other organic sources of cal mag that are not chemicals and the plants roots and micro-organisms will use those organic forms as needed by the plant. Using cal/mag out of a bottle your forcing the soil and the plant to use them. Its not necessary to do that.

Fish bone meal/kelp tea/kelp meal - these are all great sources of Ca and Mg along with other necessary macro and micro nutrients IN THE PROPER RATIO.

 

[triangle]

Thank you both for your replies


Just because I forgot to post this part: simplest solution would be to use tapwater (i wish!).. Our water is treated with chloramine which will persist unless somehow treated is my understanding. And definitely extremely detrimental to soil life?

I know that the general thing I keep being told is don't worry about pH, or TDS etc. but we have an extraordinary water situation here!: Water Hardness In Waterloo Ontario

I live in a part of Canada that is right at the top of the graph of cities with the hardest water. Because it is nearly entirely sourced through bedrock.

Tap water stats for Waterloo, ON: pH of 8.3. TDS/PPM of ~350 (only in my neighbourhood, some areas are 700+!) . Heavily chloraminated

So right off the bat -- our water from the tap is nutty. Definitely way beyond the realm of toleration mentioned above as being 5.5 to 7.0

Now with the straight RO water from the tap, it's at 7 pH. But after adding the Ca/Mg it actually drops, not rises, to the bottom of that range. Testing at 5.5..

So just to clarify here. I guess you are telling me go back to "straight RO"? As for the additives mentioned above, I have Stella Maris kelp extract. Do you recommend foliar or soil application?

 

[Emilya Green]

Don't throw away your bottle yet... with bottled organic calmag (or my fermented eggshell recipe) you are able to provide calcium and magnesium in a readily available form, and in amounts that can be easily controlled.
Adding the elements into the soil in an uncooked form does not make them easily gotten to, and even if you have the microbes in place ready to process these raw materials, it takes time. You need mag now. Adding a bunch of extra stuff to the soil can upset the feeding cycle too... be careful. The calmag products out there are popular because they allow you to get the extra cal and mag into the plants, but not upset the balance of the soil in doing so.

 

[triangle]

Don't throw away your bottle yet... with bottled organic calmag (or my fermented eggshell recipe) you are able to provide calcium and magnesium in a readily available form, and in amounts that can be easily controlled.
Adding the elements into the soil in an uncooked form does not make them easily gotten to, and even if you have the microbes in place ready to process these raw materials, it takes time. You need mag now. Adding a bunch of extra stuff to the soil can upset the feeding cycle too... be careful. The calmag products out there are popular because they allow you to get the extra cal and mag into the plants, but not upset the balance of the soil in doing so.

I think your post snuck in right after I made a followup post and not sure if you read it, but just wanted to clarify with you: Once I add the organic ca/mg to the RO water, it goes from a pH of 7.0 to around 5.5. Is this okay then, to use without adding the beneficial friendly pH up?

 

[Tony Urban]

I found that the RO water was very much a pain to Ph. All my issues with RO water stopped when I tried balancing the Ph because it swings so much.

Trust in Emilya and Bob on this.

 

[triangle]

I found that the RO water was very much a pain to Ph. All my issues with RO water stopped when I tried balancing the Ph because it swings so much.

Trust in Emilya and Bob on this.

Hey there, they kind of offered differing opinions though! Would you recommend straight RO with no Ca/Mg added, at a pH of 7.0? Or the RO with Ca/Mg added at a pH of 5.5 then?

 

[Emilya Green]

I think your post snuck in right after I made a followup post and not sure if you read it, but just wanted to clarify with you: Once I add the organic ca/mg to the RO water, it goes from a pH of 7.0 to around 5.5. Is this okay then, to use without adding the beneficial friendly pH up?

yes, in a truly organic grow, pH in those ranges is not at all a worry. Additional fluids to adjust pH would simply be harmful to any microlife living in that soil. What is it that has you so hung up on pH as an organic gardener?

Now, lets talk about your microlife. Have you been working on culturing that soil or somehow adding microbes so that you can be assured that your soil is living?

 

[Modest Grower]

@Emilya I have learned quite a bit from running into your posts so thank you very much for that. I'm about to hop over to your journals and learn all I can about living soil! Thanks again. Interesting discussion here as well.

 

[Tony Urban]

Hey there, they kind of offered differing opinions though! Would you recommend straight RO with no Ca/Mg added, at a pH of 7.0? Or the RO with Ca/Mg added at a pH of 5.5 then?

I should have mentioned this. I stopped using RO water. I too, hail from the great white north, and my water is 8.0 out of the tap. I fill a 5 gallon bucket. Let it sit for a day or so. Then mix up whatever I want to feed it. I use a variety of things, depending on the situation, Magnifical (calmag), fish fertilizer, kelp fertilizer, aerated compost teas, but essentially I mix up what I want then do a ph test (I don't anymore) to check its levels. If within a reasonable range. I leave it.

Letting it sit out helps get rid of the chlorine, it off gasses. There may be some chloramines left, but depending on what I am brewing or adding, some of it helps deal with that too. But. I suspect you could do the same with the RO. Mix up what you want. Test it, if its reasonable, leave it be.

Each person kinda has to figure out what works best for them but. I have learned from people like Bob and Emilya who were growing before I was.

 

[bobrown14]

So just to clarify here. I guess you are telling me go back to "straight RO"? As for the additives mentioned above, I have Stella Maris kelp extract. Do you recommend foliar or soil application?

Thats what I do - straight RO water.

The important parts of the soil for plant growth are the micro-organisms and Mycorrhizal Fungi. Promote their growth and the plants will be fine.

Some chemicals we add to the water actually inhibit or kill off these important living organisms in the soil.

Cal mag is bro science and not even a very good one.

Kelp extract - I foliar on and also water in. As in most things in life, moderation and balance. Usually 1x a week or so with my IPM routine for foliar. Water in as I think the plants look like they could use a boost. Kelp plays really well with the mircro-organisms in the soil.

Kelp is high in PGRs as well as macro and micro nutrients. PGRs are plant growth regulators. Go easy not crazy.

If I have a plant that is having issues

1/4 cup kelp meal + 1/2 cup EWC into a 1/2 gallon jar let steep over night and water in.

Change wont happen over night but you will see continual improvement.

We just moved to a new home and I hadn't had my RO setup yet so was watering with VERY hard water from the well. Almost killed my plants. RO water set up now back on track.

 

[bobrown14]

@triangle - curious about why so adamant about the use of cal/mag.

My advice is to go without and use what you need when you see the need.

Now you should look up what cal mag deficiency looks like. lol

This is gonna get good. [rubbing hands together].

 

[Old Salt]

Just because I forgot to post this part: simplest solution would be to use tapwater (i wish!).. Our water is treated with chloramine which will persist unless somehow treated is my understanding. And definitely extremely detrimental to soil life?

I know that the general thing I keep being told is don't worry about pH, or TDS etc. but we have an extraordinary water situation here!: Water Hardness In Waterloo Ontario

I live in a part of Canada that is right at the top of the graph of cities with the hardest water. Because it is nearly entirely sourced through bedrock.

Tap water stats for Waterloo, ON: pH of 8.3. TDS/PPM of ~350 (only in my neighbourhood, some areas are 700+!) . Heavily chloraminated

I grew up about 1/2 hr from you in the Stratford and the Sebringville areas.

If you wish, you could run your tap water through one of the chloramine filters available at the big online malls. You could mix this at a ratio of 1:9 to 1:3 with water from the RO (bigger number). This would give your plants some minerals.

Emilya can tell you if this is a good solution. I have similar numbers to your water with the addition of ten times the allowable arsenic level from my well. I have to use water from my RO. It's very expensive for me, as 75% of the water going to the RO comes out as waste. Add in that my well is going dry during our summers, and you get the picture.

 

[bobrown14]

I think WalMart you can fill up large containers with RO water. They have a service at some of the larger stores. I read it somewhere.... I think its pretty cheap as well but never tried using it.

 

[Old Salt]

I think WalMart you can fill up large containers with RO water. They have a service at some of the larger stores. I read it somewhere.... I think its pretty cheap as well but never tried using it.

Bring your pH and TDS/EC meters. The systems available to the public are often not well maintained.

 

[triangle]

What is it that has you so hung up on pH as an organic gardener?

As you can imagine, posted pics of flowers that kept turning pale and yellow at various stages of a previous grow. Answers are typically all over the place, but a fair bit of them were blaming my pH levels saying it looks like lockout. RO = 7pH , RO+Ca/Mg=5.5pH, Tap=8.3pH. I figured none of these are ideal as most recommend 6.3-6.5 I thought..

Now, lets talk about your microlife. Have you been working on culturing that soil or somehow adding microbes so that you can be assured that your soil is living?

Honestly, no clue.. this is my first grow ever with this soil and this is why I'm seeking help here! I added inoculant to the plant roots, as well as some stuff to the seeds at germination time

The soil is "KIS Organic Soil" sourced from Black Swallow Living Soil here in Canada... I wish I could give you more specifics on it. I plan to add Red Wigglers, nematodes. Cover crop seeds are down but not sprouted yet. Also have just a small bit of barley straw on top so far (afraid of going crazy, heard they attract bugs)

The plants are small, and from reading your guide, do best with multiple up pots.. So they're currently in a 3 gallon but destined for a 150 gallon geopot if I can gain the confidence to commit to trying it. If I get scared, they go into a 15 gallon fabric.

 

[triangle]

I should have mentioned this. I stopped using RO water. I too, hail from the great white north, and my water is 8.0 out of the tap. I fill a 5 gallon bucket. Let it sit for a day or so.

Fascinating.. Even with high TDS and 8+ pH?

If within a reasonable range. I leave it.

Like what's reasonable then?

Letting it sit out helps get rid of the chlorine, it off gasses. There may be some chloramines left, but depending on what I am brewing or adding, some of it helps deal with that too.

Yep, there's also a great product called Seachem Prime that will nuke chloramines too. It's used to condition tap water for fish. It creates a reaction with the chloramines where it turns to sulfur and quickly evaporates into the air -- all without changing pH

 

[triangle]

Thats what I do - straight RO water.
We just moved to a new home and I hadn't had my RO setup yet so was watering with VERY hard water from the well. Almost killed my plants. RO water set up now back on track.

Yeah man ours is mega hard too. What makes hard water so bad, if the water is within an acceptable pH and has no chlorine and chloramine, you'd think it would be fine.. but I guess there's more to it?