Leaf cupping?

[HarrySchleem69]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, i searched through the posts a little and found a thread about leaves cupping up but not down. I have a plant with leaves cupping down. Soil grow. Don't know pH. Don't think it's overwatered as this is my second grow and I've been trying to avoid making the mistakes in my first grow. Leaves look healthy physically but I think they have a slight yellow "blotchiness" but it could be my imagination. I foliar sprayed an epsom salt solution a couple weeks ago as a sort of experiment to see what would happen. I didn't think the plant needed it but i needed to see what would happen so I know for future reference lol. Maybe those leaves were affected and are forever "damaged". The leaves feel really thin and weak compared to my other plants i grew. Bag seed so I don't know the strain. I know at one point I had my lights too close but have since remedied that situation. Am I overthinking this?

 

[Pat Puffer]

Hey there Harry, i see the cupping. Couple of questions...how often and how much are you watering? Are you allowing the soil to dry out inbetween? What kind of soil are you using? How long has it been in it's container? How big is the container? Also...what kind of light are you using?

Overall your leaves have a healthy color, not really showing a deficiency...so i am apt to consider a compromising situation at the roots. Either drowning in water or too cramped for them. I could be wrong.

 

[013]

when leaves point down at roots it means the roots are not happy. Strongly suspect 2 problems, that soil mix does not have any aeration and watering too frequently. Lack of aeration means the soil retains too much water - it can’t drain out, that coupled with watering too frequently means the roots are always drowning. Forget the stick a finger in the soil method, when top is dry the bottom is still very wet. If you are using a 2 prong 3 way light, moisture & ph meter.... remove it from the grow room and save that device for roasting 2 marshmallows at once, thats about all they are good for.

Take that container and place it over a drip pan, tilt the pot at at step angle and leave it propped up for at least an hour, two hours would be even better. The container should take a long slow pee.... there should be a fairly large size puddle left over. Thats the perched water table coming out of the container, after draining for an hour the pwt will reset itself to a new lower level. A plant that size should be able to go an easy 5 to 7 days with no water added.

you need perlite added to that soil at a 2 to 1 ratio, for every 2 gallons of soil add 1 gallon of perlite. Maybe don’t dig it up now let the plant recover but at your next uppotting use a generous measure of perlite in your soil mix.

 

[HarrySchleem69]

Hey there Harry, i see the cupping. Couple of questions...how often and how much are you watering? Are you allowing the soil to dry out inbetween? What kind of soil are you using? How long has it been in it's container? How big is the container? Also...what kind of light are you using?

Overall your leaves have a healthy color, not really showing a deficiency...so i am apt to consider a compromising situation at the roots. Either drowning in water or too cramped for them. I could be wrong.

I'm glad you said that. Im pretty sure she is very cramped in her very tiny square pot. She's been in it for almost a month now but I was trying to hold out as long as possible to transplant her until my flowering plant is done due to having weak lights and not a ton of space. Plus, I have a shit ton of a cheap dollar store soil and miracle grow moisture control mixture that I'm hesitant to use since every time I've used MG I've always had nute burn issues. Although I picked out upwards of 50+ fertilizer balls out of the MG soil so maybe it'll be alright. Im going to pick up some worm castings now

 

[HarrySchleem69]

when leaves point down at roots it means the roots are not happy. Strongly suspect 2 problems, that soil mix does not have any aeration and watering too frequently. Lack of aeration means the soil retains too much water - it can’t drain out, that coupled with watering too frequently means the roots are always drowning. Forget the stick a finger in the soil method, when top is dry the bottom is still very wet. If you are using a 2 prong light, moisture & ph meter.... save that device for roasting 2 marshmallows at once, thats about all they are good for.

Take that container and place it over a drip pan, tilt the pot at at step angle and leave it propped up for at least an hour. The container should take a long slow pee.... there should be a fairly large size puddle left over. Thats the perched water table coming out of the container, after draining for an hour the pwt will reset itself to a new lower level. A plant that size should be able to go an easy 5 to 7 days with no water added.

you need perlite added to that soil at a 2 to 1 ratio, for every 2 gallons of soil add 1 gallon of perlite

I'm thinking she's really cramped in the soil. It's a very tiny pot and she's been in it for almost a month. I've used the pot tilting method for awhile now. It's very surprising how much extra water comes out

 

[Pat Puffer]

As 013 stated as well, Perlite is a soil growers freind. I get bags of soil at times, did recently and screwed up (lol) came in TOO hot and burnt plants, and the bags i get are pure dirt/soil. Either compost, EWC, Manure...etc., they dont have an aeration element such as perlite. I add it to it until it looks "nice", I don't have a ratio. When up-pot happens be sure to add some perlite. Screwy to spend cash in something that doesn't bring any nutrients, but it keeps our plants healthy in soil.

 

[HarrySchleem69]

As 013 stated as well, Perlite is a soil growers freind. I get bags of soil at times, did recently and screwed up (lol) came in TOO hot and burnt plants, and the bags i get are pure dirt/soil. Either compost, EWC, Manure...etc., they dont have an aeration element such as perlite. I add it to it until it looks "nice", I don't have a ratio. When up-pot happens be sure to add some perlite. Screwy to spend cash in something that doesn't bring any nutrients, but it keeps our plants healthy in soil.

I'm headed to my local nursery right now to pick up some worm castings and hopefully some perlite if they have some. Definitely something I've been neglecting during my growing adventure lol. I have my flowering plant in a fabric pot, I thought maybe if I didn't have enough perlite the fabric pot would help me out some. And I can't complain I guess but it could be way better

 

[HarrySchleem69]

*UPDATE*
The plant was definitely on its way to being a little rootbound so i went and bought a bag of perlite and worm castings and I found a nice bag of organic soil that contains peat moss, coco and compost. It's a total 180 from the soil im used to using (cheap dollar store soil that's mostly wood chunks and synthetic fertilizers) this soil was so soft and airy. I added the perlite and worm castings and got the plant transplanted into my other 6 gallon fabric pot. Hopefully now that I'm not using miracle grow soil anymore I won't have as much trouble with my plants getting burned to shit

 

[HarrySchleem69]

One thing I noticed is this soil contains Lime as a "pH adjuster". Am I gonna have to keep an eye or two on that or is it something I don't really need to be concerned with?

 

[OldMedUser]

One thing I noticed is this soil contains Lime as a "pH adjuster". Am I gonna have to keep an eye or two on that or is it something I don't really need to be concerned with?

Lime is added to a lot of mixes containing peat as it's slightly acidic and the lime moves the pH needle up into the 6 - 7 range. Should be enough to get it thru the first crop but if re-used should have a bit added. I use the soilless ProMix HP and it has two types if lime added. Dolomitic and calcitic plus lots and lots of perlite which is pH neutral but makes it airy.

You're going to need other nutrients to grow well so have you got any plans for that?

 

[HarrySchleem69]

Lime is added to a lot of mixes containing peat as it's slightly acidic and the lime moves the pH needle up into the 6 - 7 range. Should be enough to get it thru the first crop but if re-used should have a bit added. I use the soilless ProMix HP and it has two types if lime added. Dolomitic and calcitic plus lots and lots of perlite which is pH neutral but makes it airy.

You're going to need other nutrients to grow well so have you got any plans for that?

I have various other organic liquid nutrients. One of them is Dr. Earth Liquid Gold listed as 1-1-1 for NPK. I have a Flower organic liquid nutrient listed at 1-3-1 and some epsom salt lol. I know I really need to step up my nutrient game but money isn't really my strong suit right now so im going with what I have and what I can get at a pretty penny

 

[OldMedUser]

I have various other organic liquid nutrients. One of them is Dr. Earth Liquid Gold listed as 1-1-1 for NPK. I have a Flower organic liquid nutrient listed at 1-3-1 and some epsom salt lol. I know I really need to step up my nutrient game but money isn't really my strong suit right now so im going with what I have and what I can get at a pretty penny

You're going to want something with more K in it for later flowering to boost the bud size up tho you should be able to get a decent crop using what you have if used correctly. Sulfur from the Epsom Salts is a good resin booster and tehy like the extra Mg in later flowering too. I got all sorts of nutes but also use Epsom.

 

[HarrySchleem69]

You're going to want something with more K in it for later flowering to boost the bud size up tho you should be able to get a decent crop using what you have if used correctly. Sulfur from the Epsom Salts is a good resin booster and tehy like the extra Mg in later flowering too. I got all sorts of nutes but also use Epsom.

So could I just mix the Epsom salts directly in with my flower nutes? What serving size would be recommended? The flower nutes i use contain calcium as well. And does the Epsom do anything to screw with my pH or should the soil microbes and whatnot buffer that shit out?
Here is a picture of the ingredients list of the flower nutes I use

 

[OldMedUser]

So could I just mix the Epsom salts directly in with my flower nutes? What serving size would be recommended? The flower nutes i use contain calcium as well. And does the Epsom do anything to screw with my pH or should the soil microbes and whatnot buffer that shit out?
Here is a picture of the ingredients list of the flower nutes I use

Epsom is Mg and S so could help balance the Ca in your nutes. For sure you can add it to your nute mix and it's pretty neutral as far as pH goes. A tsp/gal/4L is lots and maybe some extra after week 4 of flower.

Epsom Salts take a bit to dissolve so I'll add it to a half cup of water and stir it up until all dissolved then add it to my nute mix.

Hopefully the compost that's in that new soil you got has enough of the other micro-nutrients plants need to stay healthy. Next time you're at the garden centre, (all closed here now except for hydro stores), look for something called Frittered Trace Elements. It has all those little ones essential to healthy growth. I'll pulverize some in my mortar and pestle to mix in with my soilless stuff tho there's probably enough in my hydro nutes. About a Tbsp/5gal pail. Could just mix some in the top of the soil too but better when blended in.

As you're using organic nutes some Myco is also good to add. I even use some in my soilless stuff tho I don't know if it makes any real difference. Stuff I use is called DynoMyco and they are a sponsor here I believe. It's a fungus specific to pot and helps the plants absorb the nutes.

 

[HarrySchleem69]

Epsom is Mg and S so could help balance the Ca in your nutes. For sure you can add it to your nute mix and it's pretty neutral as far as pH goes. A tsp/gal/4L is lots and maybe some extra after week 4 of flower.

Epsom Salts take a bit to dissolve so I'll add it to a half cup of water and stir it up until all dissolved then add it to my nute mix.

Hopefully the compost that's in that new soil you got has enough of the other micro-nutrients plants need to stay healthy. Next time you're at the garden centre, (all closed here now except for hydro stores), look for something called Frittered Trace Elements. It has all those little ones essential to healthy growth. I'll pulverize some in my mortar and pestle to mix in with my soilless stuff tho there's probably enough in my hydro nutes. About a Tbsp/5gal pail. Could just mix some in the top of the soil too but better when blended in.

As you're using organic nutes some Myco is also good to add. I even use some in my soilless stuff tho I don't know if it makes any real difference. Stuff I use is called DynoMyco and they are a sponsor here I believe. It's a fungus specific to pot and helps the plants absorb the nutes.

Would the worm castings i added to the new soil help out the existing compost already in the soil? This shit is so intimidating to me, once I start really looking into it im like bombarded with all kinds of shit

 

[HarrySchleem69]

Epsom is Mg and S so could help balance the Ca in your nutes. For sure you can add it to your nute mix and it's pretty neutral as far as pH goes. A tsp/gal/4L is lots and maybe some extra after week 4 of flower.

Epsom Salts take a bit to dissolve so I'll add it to a half cup of water and stir it up until all dissolved then add it to my nute mix.

Hopefully the compost that's in that new soil you got has enough of the other micro-nutrients plants need to stay healthy. Next time you're at the garden centre, (all closed here now except for hydro stores), look for something called Frittered Trace Elements. It has all those little ones essential to healthy growth. I'll pulverize some in my mortar and pestle to mix in with my soilless stuff tho there's probably enough in my hydro nutes. About a Tbsp/5gal pail. Could just mix some in the top of the soil too but better when blended in.

As you're using organic nutes some Myco is also good to add. I even use some in my soilless stuff tho I don't know if it makes any real difference. Stuff I use is called DynoMyco and they are a sponsor here I believe. It's a fungus specific to pot and helps the plants absorb the nutes.

I have another question, off topic, kinda. When would you recommend adding some Epsom salt to my nute mix? I have a plant that is i think day 25 from first pistils and like day 32 from the actual flip to 12/12. I still haven't seen a straight answer as far as when to start counting for flower so i count both lol

 

[SoGnotSOG321]

Yes, check your ph if adding epsom to your feed water mix. MG has been great, you cannot use that houseplant version and the enriched soils are to hot with the time released ferts. You've got to cut down the ratio of MG soil in your mix and then avoid over feeding later on. The time release fertilizer isnt releasing humungous amounts of nutrients from beginning to end of the plants lifecycle continously, that's a ridiculously spacious claim as fictional as a perpetual engine lol show me run off measurements of ppm for MG soils vs anything else being hocked along side anything else with similar amounts of nutrients in them. Three decades I've been running it and I've never had any issues besides late fade and having to top off late on outdoor photo period plants. I'm indoors using it on photos and I reused some of my previous soil in my current crop, I'm getting fade and it's two months in, so the perpetual fertilizer fairy tale is just that in my opinion. I'm dumping the simple mixture on the box, 1 teaspoon per gallon a couple ozs top watered every other day and the fade is going away after a week. I learned a lesson by including any of the old mix without adding in more of the enriched MG soil. GG

 

[SoGnotSOG321]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

MG through 10 weeks with TB full strength from FF over the last four weeks.

 

[HarrySchleem69]

Yes, check your ph if adding epsom to your feed water mix. MG has been great, you cannot use that houseplant version and the enriched soils are to hot with the time released ferts. You've got to cut down the ratio of MG soil in your mix and then avoid over feeding later on. The time release fertilizer isnt releasing humungous amounts of nutrients from beginning to end of the plants lifecycle continously, that's a ridiculously spacious claim as fictional as a perpetual engine lol show me run off measurements of ppm for MG soils vs anything else being hocked along side anything else with similar amounts of nutrients in them. Three decades I've been running it and I've never had any issues besides late fade and having to top off late on outdoor photo period plants. I'm indoors using it on photos and I reused some of my previous soil in my current crop, I'm getting fade and it's two months in, so the perpetual fertilizer fairy tale is just that in my opinion. I'm dumping the simple mixture on the box, 1 teaspoon per gallon a couple ozs top watered every other day and the fade is going away after a week. I learned a lesson by including any of the old mix without adding in more of the enriched MG soil. GG

I've been using the Miracle Grow moisture control brand. Have you tried that one? I think one of my issues that I've had with it is overwatering. But the flowering plant i have now has had issue after issue and at one point i was willing to let it die due to my stupidity so I don't think I can blame it ALL on the soil. My second plant is honestly doing really well and it has the same exact mix that my flowering plant has (well, it used to before I transplanted it). Im gonna try an organic soil with no MG this time to try and see if maybe that will work out better for me

 

[HarrySchleem69]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

MG through 10 weeks with TB full strength from FF over the last four weeks.

I can't say I think MG is the devil soil that people make it out to be. I've used it for all of my plants so far and I think if I get my watering schedule and techniques under control, I won't have the burning issues that I've faced multiple times. Other than that, the plants grow well. No complaints there. Im still a beginner so I still have alot to learn