InTheShed Does A Vulx Comparison Grow

While we are certainly shocked by the outcome so far, we are very glad that @InTheShed is providing this side by side grow!

It won't be the last - we've seen far too many great results to stop at one bad trial on this forum - but we are working hard to get to the bottom of what's going on!

Here's a few things we are looking at now:

1. The yellowing of the leaves is not more intense at the bottom of the plant (at least it looks that way in the photos). This is not indicative of a N shortage, however it could be a sign of other problems - nutrient burn, pH imbalance, or lockout.

Although I don't recommend watering to runoff with Vulx normally, one way to check for nutrient lockout is to measure the pH of water before it goes into the soil, and then measure the pH of the runoff. "Slipping" - or any large variance - will let you know you've got some issues there. Either way, knowing the pH of everything would go a long way to proper diagnosis.

2. The lack of root growth in the beginning phase is something I have literally never seen - generally Vulx will make root growth explode in young plants. I posted a photo of a customer using it on a CBD strain and she's having great results in the early stage root growth more in line with what we expect. Certainly surprising to see the roots on this plant doing so poorly in comparison.

3. Chloramine does get absorbed into/carried by Vulx - so it's possible that this is an issue. The vitamin C "hack" will definitely work to neutralize chloramine. Charcoal filters will also dechlorinate chloramines but you need to run the water through the filter slowly and then you have free flowing Ammonia (NH3) which often ionizes into NH4+ in pH <~7. I'd wager most people would rather use vitamin C (ascorbic acid).

4. There are a lot of burnt tips! If the N deficiency was bad enough to cause this - the leaves would be much more yellow and there would be a pile of the dead ones on the soil.

I'd troubleshoot this way:

1. Check pH of water before watering and as runoff and compare numbers.
2. If that doesn't give any insight - try watering the plant with water that has been treated with vitamin c.
3. If that doesn't work - just feed the plant a tad more and see if the condition improves!

While we look forward to other successful side-by-sides, we really want to make the product work for InTheShed by going through all the issues and finding the proper solution. We really don't like to see unhappy plants - so let's make her happy!
 
Awesome start Shed and seems to be an interesting comparison! The “no vulx” looks to be in better condition so far so it should be interesting to see how it plays out!

Derbybud said:
Good of you to be chiming in on this Vulx. Shed knows how to grow so he should be able to get this under control in due time. Like all new things in a grow you just have to figure out and shed will get it.
Click to expand...

Shed is indeed a good grower so I’m sure on time he will have this figured out and off to the races!

Good on you @Vulx for showing support in the matter! Keep it up team!
 
Amy Gardner said:
I wonder if it would be different if you fed and watered at full strength/amounts but half as often.
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I have to agree with what Amy said here. The overall yellowing, not starting at the bottom and working its way up like a mobile deficiency, but all over the plant all at once... this is the biggest clue.
This is not the signs of a nutrient deficiency, this is chlorosis, an anemia.
What is one of the primary causes of chlorosis, or lack of chlorophyll in the leaves? Waterlogged roots. I know it sounds almost cliche coming from me, but I think you are watering too often. :peace::love:
 
TurboBucket said:
They said they would ship some out to a handful of people. Not sure if they have any left
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I also went to their website and asked as well. Never know.
 
Derbybud said:
Good of you to be chiming in on this Vulx. Shed knows how to grow so he should be able to get this under control in due time. Like all new things in a grow you just have to figure out and shed will get it.
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Yes, Shed is amazing! I hope my comment did not sound derisive of his work at all as that was not the intention. I was going to stay out of the thread but just wanted to consolidate our thoughts in a comment and see if there was some others who wanted to corroborate what was on our minds.

This forum is great, so of course there have already been a lot of helpful responses. :)


Emilya said:
I have to agree with what Amy said here. The overall yellowing, not starting at the bottom and working its way up like a mobile deficiency, but all over the plant all at once... this is the biggest clue.
This is not the signs of a nutrient deficiency, this is chlorosis, an anemia.
What is one of the primary causes of chlorosis, or lack of chlorophyll in the leaves? Waterlogged roots. I know it sounds almost cliche coming from me, but I think you are watering too often. :peace::love:
Click to expand...


This is intriguing because the number one issue we see with Vulx-treated plants is overwatering. I'd add that to the "check this out" list that I posted before. Shed and I discussed it privately and he mentioned that not getting water throughout the whole bucket to wet all the soil was not an option - maybe someone can chime in here and give their 2 cents on that.

Ok - back to lurking on the thread for me and watching this play out. Thanks, everyone!
 
No Vulx my comments were never to state that you didn't think Shed was a good grower or not, it was that I'm sure with your input and his skill set you will be able to get this under control for an outstanding finish.
I'm very happy that you showed up and are working it out on the journal so all of us can maybe help participate and learn of a new product. My hat's off to you and keep working at it.
 
So would adjusting medium porosity with perlite have any real effect in Vulx amended mediums? It still should have a small effect ,right?

Hi Shed... and all the rest of you lovely people as well. :love:
 
This all reminds me very much of the practice of adding vermiculite to a soil mix so as to increase the water retention rate. These grows need to be watered less often too, and of course the drawback of all this is that your watering/nute frequency goes down if you are not watering as often. The question has always been, is it better to water and give nutes more often, going through more nute/water cycles, or is it better to immerse the roots in nutrients for longer periods of time?
Also, we have the oxygenation problem... roots left in the wet without oxygen suffer, and a long retention rate could create a problem. Possibly this could be mitigated in grows such as this by oxygenating the water so that can also be stored in the Vulx for later use?

Fascinating experiment... thanks Shed!
 
Vulx said:
one way to check for nutrient lockout is to measure the pH of water before it goes into the soil, and then measure the pH of the runoff. "Slipping" - or any large variance
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Sorry to contradict you on the pH testing, but as far as I know from soil science, runoff pH from nutes is not a way to test the pH of your soil. There are a number of methods, but that isn't one of them. You can slurry test, or you use the pour through method, where you water to runoff and then, once runoff has completely finished (one hour is recommended), add enough distilled water to create a certain amount of runoff and measure that. When I transplant, I'll run a slurry test on both pots and see where they are. I won't be adjusting the pH of my nutes, per the link in my signature.
Emilya said:
This is not the signs of a nutrient deficiency, this is chlorosis, an anemia.
What is one of the primary causes of chlorosis, or lack of chlorophyll in the leaves? Waterlogged roots. I know it sounds almost cliche coming from me, but I think you are watering too often
Click to expand...
Anemia yes, waterlogged roots no (but thanks for your faith in my ability to correctly water my plants ;)). Both of these pots are dry top to bottom before they get watered (you can see the roots in my post here, taken before they were watered). The problem with the Vulx plant is that it is getting 50% of the nutes it needs to thrive. That's part of the design of the test! Vulx says it provides "40-50% nutrient savings" so that's what I'm doing.

I'll be transplanting these and adding more Vulx per their formula, and watering with treated water going forward, so we'll see how it goes.

Anyone looking for free samples, please contact Vulx on their intro page or via PM, rather than via this journal.

Vulx Volcanic Soil Amendment: Corporate Introduction

We're excited to introduce ourselves as a corporate sponsor of 420Magazine. We started Vulx with one simple goal in mind: to create an effective, sustainable soil amendment that not only grows better plants, but contributes to a better environment. Vulx is a soil amendment comprised of...
www.420magazine.com
 
InTheShed said:
Sorry to contradict you on the pH testing, but as far as I know from soil science, runoff pH from nutes is not a way to test the pH of your soil. There are a number of methods, but that isn't one of them. You can slurry test, or you use the pour through method, where you water to runoff and then, once runoff has completely finished (one hour is recommended), add enough distilled water to create a certain amount of runoff and measure that. When I transplant, I'll run a slurry test on both pots and see where they are. I won't be adjusting the pH of my nutes, per the link in my signature.
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No adjusting of nutrient pH required, you're merely taking a reference measurement for comparison. Additionally, I have to disagree with your assertion that measuring soil pH via runoff and input comparison is not an acceptable practice. The test I am referring to is known as the PourThru (Pour Through) test. It's referenced most notably in this document drafted by the North Carolina University Department of Horticultural Science:

Monitoring and Managing pH and EC Using the PourThru Extraction Method | NC State Extension Publications

Providing a proper nutritional program is essential for growing top quality plants. Sampling the root substrate for pH and electrical conductivity (EC) with the PourThru extraction method is a quick and simple check of the nutritional status of a crop. The PourThru extraction method allows rapid...
content.ces.ncsu.edu

The PourThru Monitoring and Managing program is designed for growers to monitor and maintain their crops. It is a simple program for rapidly determining a crop’s pH and EC. It is a program that allows growers to change their focus to prevention instead of cure, and action instead of reaction. If adopted, this proactive program can virtually eliminate nutritional problems.
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And again it is referenced by Michigan State University: https://www.canr.msu.edu/uploads/re...and_ec_of_crops_grown_in_large_containers.pdf

Among these, the PT [Pour Thru] method is a widely accepted practice that can be used for both greenhouse and nursery crops.
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Additional References:

Soil Testing

Quick Link: Greenhouse Media; Saturated Media Extract Submittal Form to be completed and sent with soil sample to the UMass Extension Soil and Plant Nutrient Testing Laboratory. More info below. Soil Testing A soil test is important for several reasons: to optimize crop production, to protect...
ag.umass.edu
 
I posted a link to the pour through method in my reply, and it happens to be to the Cornell pdf, but I'm sure they're all the same. I was referring to this statement you made:
"one way to check for nutrient lockout is to measure the pH of water before it goes into the soil, and then measure the pH of the runoff." That's not a description of the pour through method, so you threw me off!

Checking nute runoff is not the same as the pour through method, and I don't want growers thinking that checking the pH of nute runoff was any indication of soil pH, without the additional procedures described in your links.
 
Okay, so trying to trouble shoot this comparison is getting a bit scattered. I'm doing my level best to make the Vulx plant a clear winner as I believe they're claims must have merit, but figuring out the reason it's lagging behind the regular plant is not easy.

We've covered pH, chloramine, overwatering, too frequent watering, and not enough product added to the ProMix. That last point is something I raised with their rep when I mentioned that 5% of the weight of the ProMix might have been insufficient given how fluffy ProMix HP is. Most of the folks using this are in soil I believe, which is a whole lot heavier.

I was going to up-pot to 5 gallons and change the ratio of ProMix to Vulx based on a new calculation, but I was stopped and told that, based on what they were seeing, I was giving it too much water at one time.

This seems patently absurd to me, as the roots need to be wet from top to bottom, but since this is their product I'm testing, I am following their recommendations having registered my objection.

By yesterday, the ProMix was so dry it had shrunk away from the edge of the pot. As anyone can see from last week's pic, I let my soil get dry before I water. There are no "wet feet" or nutrient deficiencies from overwatering:
full


Here were the roots yesterday:
20190512_171242.jpg

20190512_171242.jpg

  • Media owner InTheShed
  • Date added
Vulx dry

I gave the non-Vulx plant 32 ounces of 4.5g/gallon MC, but gave the Vulx plant only 16 ounces of 2.25g/gallon water. Knowing that would leave the the bottom half of the soil dry as dust, I split the water in two parts and bottom fed 8 ounces and top fed 8 ounces. Here is the obvious result, with a bone dry gap in the middle:
20190512_173013.jpg

20190512_173013.jpg

  • Media owner InTheShed
  • Date added
Vulx uneven watering

It looked the same this morning.

I have no idea why they think the plant is being overwatered, because the leaves show it starving for nutrients. I think it is much more likely to need more product over less water, but I will follow their instructions.

More updates as they occur.
 
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