I don't know what to do, any suggestions?

Hey Bak,

before we go any further can we please see what kind of ph meter you are using? Suspecting it’s cheapie 3 way probe type soil meter. Also if you are testing ph then forget about runoff, it’s the ph value of your feed liquids that matter.

Your investment will pay off but for now recommend you ignore YouTube… stick with 420 where you can read, talk and learn

hang tight and we will get you fixed up.
 
013 said:
Hey Bak,

before we go any further can we please see what kind of ph meter you are using? Suspecting it’s cheapie 3 way probe type soil meter. Also if you are testing ph then forget about runoff, it’s the ph value of your feed liquids that matter.

Your investment will pay off but for now recommend you ignore YouTube… stick with 420 where you can read, talk and learn

hang tight and we will get you fixed up.
Click to expand...
I'm on the other fence, I pay more attention to runoff than my input and adjust accordingly. If you cycle the medium often enough and monitor runoff you will see a lot of different changes going on in the root zone throughout the grow that you would otherwise be unaware of.

If you don't know the pH of the medium you don't know how to compensate or fix a potential pH drift. People often feed more instead of fixing the main problem that is low nutrient bio-availability due to pH being out of range. You can mask a problem by feeding more but never really fix it without pH adjustments.

A sativa dominant plant will burn to bits at 2150ppm runoff! Way overfed or not watered frequent enough. Letting a pot go too dry between waterings will cause problems with salt buildup and high ppm on the runoff.
 
013 said:
Hey Bak,

before we go any further can we please see what kind of ph meter you are using? Suspecting it’s cheapie 3 way probe type soil meter. Also if you are testing ph then forget about runoff, it’s the ph value of your feed liquids that matter.

Your investment will pay off but for now recommend you ignore YouTube… stick with 420 where you can read, talk and learn

hang tight and we will get you fixed up.
Click to expand...
Yeah, a couple cheap ph water meters, (and a probe for soil) and the drops/color wheel visual tht comes with PH solution. I figured between all these, I can get within ball park ph range. At this point I’ve spent way to much, and tryn not to have to spend big bucks on a meter, tht I read will constantly cost u money to replace the glass bulb sensor, and reading can drift over time and if u forget to store right. I know the right PH is prob most important thing u need to know, but just don’t have the $$ for a high end one right now.
 
Sueet said:
I would not use that feed solution as the nutrients are now locked up in those flakes that fell out of the water. This is the reason nutes come in multiple bottles, they don't play very nice with each other sometimes.
Things that might help:
- add the cal-mag to plain water first and let it settle for a bit (I wait about 10 mins, or more if I forget) before adding nutes.
- Stop feeding half strength.... full strength might be too much but your plant clearly says half is not enough.
- you may need a better way to test pH because it shouldn't be going that far down. You state half strength but you didn't state actual measures, are you using the GH feed schedule?
- ditch the ppm measuring, it's not very helpful for a soil grown plant. Is that the problem I wonder, are you using ppm feeding numbers (hydro) ?

It is too late to make the plant pretty again, but you can stop the damage from worsening (probably).
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The Nute solution was fine till I had to add allot of PH UP..thts when the water clouded up and got those crystallized chunks..recently seen tht adding PH up Directly to solution caused a chemical reaction, and to mix ph up in plan water separately, then add tht to you Nute water stops this…gonna try here later.
Yh, I know she won’t get pretty again, the damage is done. But hoping to get to finish line with still some good smoking buds.
I have throat problems due to many years of acid reflux/Gerd tht give me throat Ulsers.,(throat scaring/narrowing, n dysphasia) Very painful, unable to eat/speak, and especially smoke. I mention this as hearing tht stopping feeding near harvest and flushing will give u buds tht are milder on yr throat/lungs.
What I seen read the most is to stop feeding plants 1-2weeks out, flush 1week b4 harvest will make plant use up all Nutes in the buds, making for a softer/smoother hit tht won’t burn yr throat.
Ppl have ask me “why not use yr bud to make edibles?, well…I know tht be better for my throat/lungs, but I hate gettn high tht way. Giving tht I have Anxiety if get to high, thts harder to judge what’s enough. where as with a hit or two I can feel it immediately and be like “I’m good”. Also I don’t like how a high lasts a super long time with edibles. I like to get a buzz, come down within a hour, so as to enjoy smoking again.
I live alone, never had kids, no family, and social anxiety, so I spend everyday, at home, Gettin high all day n night (well, I prefer a mild buzz over intense high) So a high tht lasts hours (to me) sucks, gets old/boring. So basically I like Micro dosing…gettn a buzz here n there though out the day/night. (Revealing some personal stuff here, embarrassing living this Anxiety/ agoraphobic life.)
 
Sueet said:
I would not use that feed solution as the nutrients are now locked up in those flakes that fell out of the water. This is the reason nutes come in multiple bottles, they don't play very nice with each other sometimes.
Things that might help:
- add the cal-mag to plain water first and let it settle for a bit (I wait about 10 mins, or more if I forget) before adding nutes.
- Stop feeding half strength.... full strength might be too much but your plant clearly says half is not enough.
- you may need a better way to test pH because it shouldn't be going that far down. You state half strength but you didn't state actual measures, are you using the GH feed schedule?
- ditch the ppm measuring, it's not very helpful for a soil grown plant. Is that the problem I wonder, are you using ppm feeding numbers (hydro) ?

It is too late to make the plant pretty again, but you can stop the damage from worsening (probably).
Click to expand...
The GH feed charts make no sense to me. It doesn’t say HOW OFTEN to add Nutes to your waterings. I get u water yr plants only when they need it, but how often to add Nutes to tht water? Every other water, every third?? Once a week? Get lots different opinions on that one..
 
013 said:
Hey Bak,

before we go any further can we please see what kind of ph meter you are using? Suspecting it’s cheapie 3 way probe type soil meter. Also if you are testing ph then forget about runoff, it’s the ph value of your feed liquids that matter.

Your investment will pay off but for now recommend you ignore YouTube… stick with 420 where you can read, talk and learn

hang tight and we will get you fixed up.
Click to expand...
Thx, yeah, starting to see I’m complicating things with all these runoff tests.. now see many say they never test their run off. I think thts where I went wrong. My plant was doing fine(ish), then off of bad advice, I tested runoff (from soil) got a ph of 5, freak out, and did a heavy flush tryn to get runoff up to 6-6.5. Cld not got the ph to move up even after 20g run through..and now know tht emptied the soil of all nutrients.
So the soil will always give Yh a different reading or buffer the PH?.. something like tht?
in soil, how am I supposed to know if it’s to acidic? And side note, I’m surprised how much the Nutrient mix makes yr water acidic..making me need to add lots of PH UP to get within tht mid 6 range.
 
Good points by Wastei, he’s meticulous grower who know his stuff and proof there’s many ways to skin a cat. I’m soil grower and I’ve never tested soil ph. I’ve used FF plus some local soil mix brands and I’ve just trusted that it was mixed and cooked properly… Never had issues except one time I created my own frankensoil mix, totally my fault! It’s imperative to follow a good, well-known soil mix recipe and avoid rolling your own. Once you get your sea legs and a stash pile built up then you can experiment more.

Yes always mix nutes first into plain water, stir & wait then adjust ph as the last step before you feed. It’s best to mix small fresh batches as opposed to mixing and storing, some nutes will spawn nasties when stored.

As for taste you can flush the grow media but you can’t flush nutes from your plant. A plant takes up what a plant takes up and washing the soil doesn’t change that. 420member InTheShed has link to scientific testing showing there’s no difference between flushed and un-flushed buds. Might want to consider making a few cobs to try, it’s the smoothest no-cough smoke you've ever had but the process of making cobs steps on taste & terps big time, but it’s trade off. Cobs are easy to make and fair warning it’s long thread but first page or 2 is enough to get you going.
 
013 said:
Good points by Wastei, he’s meticulous grower who know his stuff and proof there’s many ways to skin a cat. I’m soil grower and I’ve never tested soil ph. I’ve used FF plus some local soil mix brands and I’ve just trusted that it was mixed and cooked properly… Never had issues except one time I created my own frankensoil mix, totally my fault! It’s imperative to follow a good, well-known soil mix recipe and avoid rolling your own. Once you get your sea legs and a stash pile built up then you can experiment more.

Yes always mix nutes first into plain water, stir & wait then adjust ph as the last step before you feed. It’s best to mix small fresh batches as opposed to mixing and storing, some nutes will spawn nasties when stored.

As for taste you can flush the grow media but you can’t flush nutes from your plant. A plant takes up what a plant takes up and washing the soil doesn’t change that. 420member InTheShed has link to scientific testing showing there’s no difference between flushed and un-flushed buds. Might want to consider making a few cobs to try, it’s the smoothest no-cough smoke you've ever had but the process of making cobs steps on taste & terps big time, but it’s trade off. Cobs are easy to make and fair warning it’s long thread but first page or 2 is enough to get you going.
Click to expand...
So yr saying u don’t test your runoff ph or ppm? I guess I still don’t understand how to know if soil ph is off creating Nute Lock out…other than plant visual, but then how to know if soil ph is to low or to high?
So in pre mix soils, it will buffer and adjust the ph itself? and I shld only worry about the ph of water I give it? And not to care what runoff ph and ppm is?
 
i think a problem occurs if you try to change soil ph by feeding high or low ph feed water. Thats not how to adjust soil ph. A good soil mix has been buffered with dolomite lime so it retains that same ph week after week. Yes over many months time the soil buffer may lose effectiveness but for most part you should be able to complete a grow without readjusting. At least that’s my crappy grasp on dirt farming reality!

Yes think it was Sueet hit on that above, for soil you don’t really have to tinker with ph or ppms. But if you are having issues it could be that ph of feed water is off making part of the nutes out of range. I’m soil guy & never fiddle with ph or ppm and I feed some heavy stank water, but again there’s many ways to get ‘er done!
 
BakWardzMan said:
So yr saying u don’t test your runoff ph or ppm?
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chasing runoff will only lead to tears ... it's your inputs that matter more than anything.

run off can inform you if you've really screwed up the inputs, but it's the inputs that make or break the grow. you can grow by it if you know your media inside out, otherwise learning a read on your plants will always serve better. especially if you change media.


BakWardzMan said:
I guess I still don’t understand how to know if soil ph is off creating Nute Lock out…other than plant visual, but then how to know if soil ph is to low or to high?
Click to expand...

learning to read the plant is the best way.


BakWardzMan said:
So in pre mix soils, it will buffer and adjust the ph itself?
Click to expand...


if the media itself is buffered, then yes. otherwise there are ph rules for both soil and hydro media. if uncertain it won't hurt to ph for the media given.

this is a pretty standard ph chart showing differences in hydro and soil type media

full



it highlights safe ph for feeding in the different media. i actually ph a little lower in soil type media to about 6.3, but that's a personal learned preference. you ph the feed, not the media.

i currently grow hempy style, which is a hydro media, and observe feeding ph at 5.8.

hybrid media can pose significant problems. it is part of the troubles here. you also feed at different intervals depending on media type. if you have a frankenmix it gets hard to advise on when/how to feed.

BakWardzMan said:
and I shld only worry about the ph of water I give it? And not to care what runoff ph and ppm is?
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in a perfect world yes. but you need to know what your plants are telling you by their response.

personally what i see here is both a ph problem and a poor nute response.

i can't comment as to what is going on with the mix, as i don't know what media and feed schedule it's mixed for, i've ran GH previous and i can tell you the mix doesn't look right. GH is not hard to run.
 
BakWardzMan said:
So yr saying u don’t test your runoff ph or ppm? I guess I still don’t understand how to know if soil ph is off creating Nute Lock out…other than plant visual, but then how to know if soil ph is to low or to high?
So in pre mix soils, it will buffer and adjust the ph itself? and I shld only worry about the ph of water I give it? And not to care what runoff ph and ppm is?
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It depends on if it's a living soil or soilless. In a soil mix like "Super soil" with a lot of organic amendments and additives creating a whole range of interactions with organic acids, carbonates and hydroxides.

That's why people say it's pointless to pH your input growing with organics since there's to many things going on in the soil affecting pH more than what you put in from the water. Soil slurry tests work but to buffer a organic soil properly you need to add the right ingredients.

With FFHOF or any peat based "soil" you need to take the buffer into consideration and how long that will last and if it needs to be replaced or compensated by higher pH on the input feed in late flower. Real soil is compost based in my book with very little inerts added in the form of a carbon source.

One thing doesn't need to exclude the other and if you experience a problem it's a good thing to take a slurry pH test to confirm your suspicions. Chasing pH makes more sense in hydro and soilless where you can actually change it with compensating pH on the input.
 
Wastei said:
One thing doesn't need to exclude the other and if you experience a problem it's a good thing to take a slurry pH test to confirm your suspicions.
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slurry tests are so inconsistent it's subjective. i don't trust them as it's dependent on the grower and their level of experience.

i never recommend chasing runoff to any new grower. it truthfully requires a greater level of experience to be useful. most new growers aren't gonna have the time to get there.

i know you can run it, but look at how long you've been at it.



Wastei said:
Chasing pH makes more sense in hydro and soilless where you can actually change it with compensating pH on the input.
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i never chase ph in passive hydro or buffered soil media types. not worth the time.
 
bluter said:
slurry tests are so inconsistent it's subjective. i don't trust them as it's dependent on the grower and their level of experience.

i never recommend chasing runoff to any new grower. it truthfully requires a greater level of experience to be useful. most new growers aren't gonna have the time to get there.

i know you can run it, but look at how long you've been at it.





i never chase ph in passive hydro or buffered soil media types. not worth the time.
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Different strokes for different folks! Cheers bud!
 
Wastei said:
Different strokes for different folks! Cheers bud!
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your proven success and experience are both noted and are not irrelevant or discounted by any measure.

concerning newer growers i always advocate simpler proven approaches, media, and nute lines. walk before run. early small successes lead to greater involvement.
 
BakWardzMan said:
So yr saying u don’t test your runoff ph or ppm? I guess I still don’t understand how to know if soil ph is off creating Nute Lock out…other than plant visual, but then how to know if soil ph is to low or to high?
Click to expand...
If you try to force the soil to a specific pH then there is a good chance that it will prevent the plant from being able to absorb enough of any particular nutrient. This could create a deficiency even though there actually is enough of that nutrient in the soil and in the fertilizers that are being used. There is a balance.

The Happy Frog and Ocean Forest are two well known soils from a respected company that has been in business supplying soils and fertilizers for growing Cannabis since 1984, well before states started legalizing medicinal and recreational uses. The money it cost you is probably part of that $2500 you mentioned spending in the first message.

With that in mind the best thing is to trust the soils you are using.
 
BakWardzMan said:
How did you know u had lock out, and salts being the cause? How did u fix the issue?
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You can usually see a white precipitate on the outside of the bags, plus I was using synthetic nutes, a flush of 3 x times the volume of the pot, removes the built up salts. FF recommends it at about flip time when using their nutes.
 
For my rwcent first grow, I used nutrients, I underfed them, under watered them, never flushed them correctly. I got about an ounce of airy buds that burned like I was smoking carpet.

This time I went organic with the living soil mix. No nutrients, no flushing, just water. They're autos at 6 inches and vegging like crazy right now after some LST. Using happy frog potting soil 5/1 with living soil mixed in. Then a light dusting of living soil with a light raking every 2 - 3 weeks. Light between 18 - 20 inches. Temps 69-75, Rx 55-60. The pH I'm lowering with lemon juice, instead of pH down, as to not kill the beasties in the soil.

I'm hoping more for quality than yield this time. Nutrients are complicated when you're baked all day long.

So far it's been a pretty hands off grow. The way things are going in would advise an organic grow for beginners, had I known how much easier it was, I would have done it the first time too.

I remember scouring that leaf chart that shows the different deficiencies, it's so hard to recognize the right one. My main problem was mostly bad pH.

Good luck for your girl, the advice here is steller BTW. Every comment I read is all from hands on experience, a great resource.
 
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