High Pressure Aeroponics

MountainHigh. I was writing this response as you were writing yours, so I had not seen yours until I finished mine, but this should answer your questions, and just because an accomplished grower you know (using non HPA method) failed to have success is no reason to blame the process. As for my results, severe cold weather and not enough light were the problems- not HPA. To do HPA right requires a huge learning curve over any other method, and this is why I share it, so others can get up to speed without making my mistakes. It has taken me 2 grows to put together all the hardware necessary to do it right (short of adding an accumulator system), and get a feel for it ...

WOW. Really? I guess no one here took biology or zoology, but then if you had, we wouldn't be having this conversation cause all of you would know exactly why NASA spent so much of our tax dollars developing HPA, and you, too, would have a HPA system.

One last try

The mouths of the root cells are microscopic. The size of a single LPA droplet is like being hit in the face with a bunch of water balloons, the smallest being the size of giant pumpkin. Not only would this overwhelm you, your reaction would be to close your mouth to keep from drowning. And you will keep it closed until the assault is over, and you dry out. Ditto the root cell mouth.

In an aero environment, the cell mouth stays closed until the atmosphere around it has dried sufficiently for it to feed. Alas, LPA repeats this process roughly every 15 minutes for 15 minutes-24/7. These roots barely get any food, even though mass quantities are provided.

HPA is like squirting water into your mouth from a small squirt gun, except HPA delivers the nutrients in an aerosol form (10-50 microns) sizes that are easily consumed by the root cells. The most advanced vitamin delivery methods for humans are small aerosol spray bottles that mimic what HPA does. However, HPA is hardly better when the feed times are too long, as most are doing. YOU GOTTA SHORTEN THE FEED TIMES.

I have personal experience seeing my root development improve once I got that through my thick skull.

Using a 15 minute timer to feed, my roots looked like a mass of soggy spaghetti. Within days of replacing it with a iGS- 011 timer, whose lowest on time was ~ 23 seconds, lots side roots started coming out of each strand of the roots: these lateral growing root are called 'fish bones'. They provide more surface area for nutrients to be absorbed. My plants responded with considerably more growth, BUT...

Seasoned HPA growers reading my journal told me my fish bone roots weren't 'all that', and that if I really wanted to see explosive growth above ground, I needed to adjust my feed times below to < ONE SECOND! Alas, that requires incorporating an accumulator system-a pressure tank and all the equipment/controls to operate it. So if you think I am off the deep end, HA! However, I replaced my iGS timer with a Sentinel MDT 1, that gets close to ~ one second on time. Within 5 days of doing so, I saw tiny sites developing all over my fish bone roots. I call them fuzzies, cause they look like the fuzzy part of pipe cleaners. Their mouths are even smaller than the root cells. Fuzzies are a key element in plant development/growth. They will not develop unless the the nutrient particle size and feed times are properly adjusted. Also the nmner of mist heads plays a roll. Too many and you are over wetting the roots, so the volume of the root chamber is a factor in how many mist heads to use.

This tiny detail can take you from a .5g/w to 1 g/w (assuming you do a proper job of monitoring the other aspects. Is that worth it to you?
 
I am not saying this is a bad method, contrary, I just want to understand why it is Nextgen in your eyes. I have nothing but dread for systems where my girls can die when I sleep...and this system has more than one thing that can catastrophically fail so would have to be worth the worry for me. :phew:

And honestly couldn't find much recent stuff even on aeroponics, what is up with that? I earnestly went looking for more info and mostly only found your journal in the other e-zine with any real info.

And I still think you are confusing nutrient molecule size with droplet size from the misting units (whichever form they take), you are not decreasing the molecular size, which is key to the passive cellular transports, that came that way from the manufacturer, so good nutes will be important. All you are controlling is the water globule size to try and prevent "water coating" the roots so they don't choke and have maximum available oxygen.

The whole active pump cell wall thing pushes how much info I want to know atm...although I feel an itch and I did bookmark a really good site sometime ago about plant physiology, might go study some more...while I have some ambition.

I guess I am saying, welcome to the 420 Magazine ride and please hold down the noise, lot of us older folk here....:tokin:

:peacetwo:
 
FYI I made a few amendments to my response, that I hope will fill in the blanks. The mouths of the root cells are microscopic. The size of a single LPA droplet is like being hit in the face with a bunch of water balloons, the smallest being the size of giant pumpkin. Not only would this overwhelm you, your reaction would be to close your mouth to keep from drowning. And you will keep it closed until the assault is over, and you dry out. Ditto the root cell mouth.

In an aero environment, the cell mouth stays closed until the atmosphere around it has dried sufficiently for it to feed. Alas, LPA repeats this process roughly every 15 minutes for 15 minutes-24/7. These roots barely get any food, even though mass quantities are provided.Please let me know if this clarifies it for you.

And yes, it can go bad if you don't have a fail safe. I lost a recent start up because the electrical circuit the system was plugged into tripped sometime during the night. My adolescent roots did not survive many hours of no food and a dry environment. This could be prevented by supplementing with a small bubble bath in the bottom-just enough nutes covering air stones blowing freely. You can bet I will do this from now on!

As to your comment about the noise, you were the one who came across as a smart ass. I merely responded in like fashion so you could experience how you made me feel. But enough of that. Let's get back to what's important.

I am of the opinion (based on some experience) that the sooner we focus our attention on what the mj root cells want/need at various stages of development, the better our harvests will be.

And most likely, until I incorporate an accumulator, I may not even be close. Alas, none of those growers show pics. However, there is a <5 second video on Youtube showing a <1 second blast from a mist head. I will find it and provide the link. And I can attest that 1-2 second feedings are pushing the moisture residue on my root systems.

Peace out!
 
I have a quick question. How do you know that NASA chose this method of growing over other methods because of the quality of the plants grown? How do you know the choice was not made because, like you said, less nutrients and smaller reservoirs are used, which would mean less equipment/nutes/H20 to haul up to space?

Basically, there is no way of knowing precisely why NASA chose this system, unless you work for NASA. But I do know size of things being transported has a lot to do with their decision making.

And just to keep a level playing field, NASA also ruined a multi-billion dollar project because they measured some parts in inches instead of millimeters. So far, the only good thing to come out of space travel, to me, is velcro.

You have written a few lengthy posts about this HPA system, but I have yet to see that all this hassle (and $$) really adds up to better yields and healthier plants than other hydro systems. Not to mention, the attitude with which you are presenting this information is rude to say the least. Most of us are here to learn and discuss a wonderful plant that makes us happy. We put out good vibes, and encourage EVERYONE on their grows. And you can see that throughout the forum. This is the first journal that I have seen where the owner downplays all other growing methods so condescendingly.

Which is why I will no longer follow this journal. Good luck in your venture.
 
I decided to replace my Fox Farm Grow Big & Botanicare CaMg grow nutes with DM Gold so everything will be DM Gold. 3 of the plants look really strong and healthy, one is far behind, but it was a lost seed in the paper towel that I found several days after transferring the others.

Since the plants are still in the bubble pod I figure I will wait until I transition to the DM Grow A&B next week, then post a couple photos.

Most likely will move them into the HPA pod next Friday.
 
PetFlora said:
WOW. Really? I guess no one here took biology or zoology, but then if you had, we wouldn't be having this conversation cause all of you would know exactly why NASA spent so much of our tax dollars developing HPA, and you, too, would have a HPA system.
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Not necessarily. I can just turn on a tap when I find that I've run out of water, and even if for some reason my tap fails to deliver, I can nip down to the corner store or across town to the public tap at the water-treatment plant. The folks in orbit, OtOH, not only have a finite water supply (water is heavy, lol), but their next nearest tap is... 22,000+ miles away.

One last try

PetFlora said:
The mouths of the root cells are microscopic. The size of a single LPA droplet is like being hit in the face with a bunch of water balloons, the smallest being the size of giant pumpkin. Not only would this overwhelm you, your reaction would be to close your mouth to keep from drowning. And you will keep it closed until the assault is over, and you dry out. Ditto the root cell mouth.
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Are you expecting those micro-droplets to refuse to immediately form larger droplets at the moment that they all land on the roots? Or are you inferring that the actual benefit in your system is only during that infinitesimal time between contact and "clumping?"

BtW, I've been meaning to ask what you consider the cutoff between high-pressure and low-pressure aeroponics in terms of actual pressure?

PetFlora said:
Seasoned HPA growers reading my journal told me my fish bone roots weren't 'all that'
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Obviously, lol. It's a surface-area thing, isn't it?

PetFlora said:
this website does not want me to refer anyone to my HPA journal on another website, but I have had close to 40,000 visits there. Not 40, not 400, not 4000, but 40,000.

So get over yourself
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So are you the pot or the kettle?:rofl:

We have a number of journals here with at least that many views. I just noticed that one in my subscribed threads list has over 131,000. Regardless, popularity of a thread is not a guarantor of the validity of its content. (Although it can be an indicator.)
 
If anyone really is interested in 'learning' about HPA from me, I suggest you change your tone. No one forces me to answer.

TorturedS: I will take your questions in order. Necessity is the Mother of Invention. Yes, due to the weight of water NASAs goal was the most from the least, but that works here, too.
minimize the droplets coming together.

50 psi is considered the minimum high pressure to create 50-80 micron droplets

Fishbones is an important step. They indicate the root zone environment is in the ballpark, but the fuzzies don't form until the feed time is reduced < one second.

And lastly...

I am here to teach those who care to learn. It seems there are enough people here that are interested. Smart asses need not apply. I thought (hoped) you were over this, but I guess you just can't help yourself. Pitty. Hey, if you're so smart, start your own journal, but please stop shitting in mine. If you don't, I will ask the moderators to block you.

If you can over the fact that as it relates to HPA I have quite a bit of knowledge to share, and if you stop being antagonistic, you might actually learn something.
 
I give up, lol. I was here to learn. But I'll pass on the corporeal punishment.

Good luck on getting 4000 page views with that atitude.
 
Wow, dude. You have 75 posts. You, like I, are a newbie in this forum. That's not a question, that's me just telling you. You might know 'oh so much', but you're new *here*.

Some of the people you've been talking to are veteran members who have a massive wealth of knowledge. Maybe you feel your knowledge is superior in the area of HPA... but to sass them like you have been is ridiculous. I know other people are starting these 'sassy arguments' half the time, but let's take a look at your journal.

You've posted only thoughts, ideas, general ramblings, etc.

At no point have you given us a solid reason to really 'tune in'. You have ZERO CREDIBILITY.

I don't say that to be rude. Really. Think about these forums. We all know that for every 10 posters, you can have as many as 10 teenagers who've never even seen a pot plant. Kids who have read a ton, and have nothing new, useful or relevant to add. But they do. Because they're excited about their knowledge, and want to look cool.

In this forum, it's not that bad, but we still separate the wheat from the chaff by taking a look at their results. If the poster has shown us that he/she can grow exceptional cannabis, then we listen to their words. If they're loudly yelling at us to 'do what they do', but they have less than average success... we tune out and read the next journal.

I'm posting this as one of those 'newbies'. Please realize that. I'm no expert in growing. You probably have much better success with your HPA system than I do with my soil.

But I also don't offend multiple highly respected members of this forum. As a thought, maybe try to convert us to HPA. Convert us with relevant results that you have personally seen. Show us tests that you've done comparing LPA, DWC and HPA.

Because honestly, I don't think you have. It *feels* like you're pretty much only an HPA grower.

How can you critique all other methods when you don't know them?

Ugh. I'm rambling. And my apologies for it.

But I was genuinely intrigued by your method until I saw how you interacted on this forum. I'll still subscribe, in the hopes that you change your approach and bring something of value to this site.

Realize that all of this was not said in spite, but out of the hopes that this thread could be salvaged. I'm sure you have knowledge that I can glean from you, and I'd love to do just that... but maybe make the knowledge a little more palatable.
 
cflgrow said:
But I was genuinely intrigued by your method until I saw how you interacted on this forum. I'll still subscribe, in the hopes that you change your approach and bring something of value to this site.
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ditto
 
So if I had 500 posts I would automatically be an expert in your eyes? It's not the number of posts, but the quality of the information.

I have not spent any time on 420 as I was knee deep in a journal somewhere else. Then I took the summer off. My other journal is an evolution from drip-to pond foggers-to spray bars, and finally high pressure aero. Believe me, I've made or seen every mistake they create- along with a few of my own- like trying to combine them. In my other journal I showed them warts and all, as I was learning on the fly. Still am, and hope to be until I die.

I am here to impart knowledge that can be invaluable. It is not MY knowledge it is knowledge I learned by lots of studying and putting it to use. That said due to improvements in the hardware, I have simplified it from where it was some 5-10 years ago.

You will find people in life who are desperate to hold on to 'knowledge' that has long been proven wrong. You will also no doubt come across people who are jealous.

Two people misbehaved here (actually one apologized). TorturedSoul is the one acting superior. All he had/has to do was/is to phrase his questions/challenges in a positive manner, and I will happily respond in kind. In fact you will see I did answer their questions as they were good questions!

Condescending attitudes, as though I did not not know my subject matter, won't be tolerated in MY journal. Why should it? I did not kick TS out, but informed him that if his attitude did not change I would ask the moderators to block him. Reasonable on my part? TS is welcome here! In fact I think he would rather enjoy giving it a go, as I think he sees the potential. I do hope he returns! I have no doubt he could contribute and perhaps even bring something new to the HPA table.

Stick around as nothing will be going on until the roots are developed enough to transfer the babies into the HPA pod. I'm thinking Friday, then it will be time to post some pics so everyone can see what HPA does, and how simple it is once everything is in place.
 
I took several pics but have a call into Canon as their online drivers did not load correctly on my new laptop. Hope to have that cleared up today.

I went to the Dollar Store yesterday and found a great size storage containers for seedlings/clones- only 6 liters. They can potentially hold 6 PVC couplers/plants (I bought 2 @$1.00!). They accommodate a 10" air stone-having less volume than my current bubble pod starters I expect more oxygen to reach the bottom of the starter cubes. I also bought 2 Turkey Basters with ounce/ml markings.

I will be using only DM GOLD products this grow, strictly following their Nutrient Calculator. Last grow I experimented with a lot of different additives. My biggest obstacle this grow is l/sft. Hope to resolve that by flower, but seeds are auto-flower- 65-85 days to finish.

I received my DM Gold Grow A & B, and Silica yesterday. As my plants are 2 weeks old I mixed ADD.27/Silica/Grow A&B according to DMs standard amounts= 710ppm/5.5. I transferred plants from my bubble pod to the HPA pod: I added an air-stone to the rez. As a precaution I added 2 @12" air stones and enough nutes in the bottom of the HPA pod as a backup. You can't do this during flower as you need to D2W then.

Pics coming soon showing plants/roots, so all will have a reference point. :woohoo:
 
I've definitely been down this road as Mountain High mentioned... Good luck!

You'll need it with Murphy out there with his damn law...

Take a look at my blog if you want to see some roots... :)
 
Transition Photos- bubble pod to HPA pod

Bought these at Dollar Tree. 6 liter should be ideal for starter/clones. Big enough for a 10" airstone

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2 Weeks from cracked seeds. Note leaves reaching for the sky. Thanks DM LL/S.
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Note brown roots (algae) on left due to a light leak

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10G HPA pod. I have an 18G ready as a backup should the roots get too deep

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Using my prior starter/cloner pod to create humidity.
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OB-1G. Could not find your root porn.

Thanks for the luck.

Mos def, HPA is not for noobs. You need to know HPAs limitations (plant size). It is ideal for SOG/SCROG and short plants. You need to have EVERYTHING in place before you start. Last grow was bag seed that outgrew the pod. I had to stack pods (cut holes to accommodate 36" plus roots). I did not have my Sentinel timer until early flower, plus I was using too many mist heads (more is better right? Ha!). A major key is < 2 second feed times; < 1 even better!

The number of mist heads (nute volume per feed cycle) must be factored into pod volume. I started out using a 4 head mister in a 10 gallon pod with ~23 second feed times. The roots were too wet throughout the grow cycle. Got the Sentinel in early flower. Root development exploded and fuzzies began colonizing all along the fish bones. I need to research them.

This is my 3rd HPA grow, but the first with all the hardware in place from the beginning- well except for sufficient LED l/sft. Also, will be doing zero nutrient/additive experimentation. Strictly following DM Gold Nute Calculator. In spite of extreme cold weather (without room heat) my last grow was pretty damn good. I'm expecting this one to be much better.

I am excited to bring it to all who are interested- including Tortured Soul!
 
You are doing it right - I think high pressure is the way to go for aero - I tried more of a drip aero system, and while it did pretty well for a while, I let the plants grow too big and the center of the root mass starved... but they looked pretty good until late flowering. I might try again with a center feed... here's a pic:

outforchop.jpg


... I've had those fuzzy roots from running fog before - about the only other way to get small droplets, but too much heat to deal with. I ran a fogger inside a SWC tub... it was my second grow, listed in my blog too.

Good luck with your grow, and you're right, it's not for newbies. When something bad happens in Aero, it happens FAST!

Dutch Masters is great stuff - used it in all my hydro grows until I went hempy and OC+.

Hope you just got off on the wrong foot with T.S. - he's a good friend to have here and worth listening to...

... we just try to be real laid back here, you know, put on a good vibe even when you think someone is being difficult. It usually works itself out that way...
 
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