Edzzed
Well-Known Member
I read somewhere you should not use lemon juice or vinegar for that matter to adjust pH. I could be wrong but others will know.
Help diagnose deficiencies please
- Thread starter Sask420grow
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GodtyrLoki
Well-Known Member
this is almost a picture perfect version of zinc deficiency by the looks of it ... here is how to fix it ... How To Identify And Deal With Zinc Deficiency When Growing Weed - RQS Blog
The most common reason growers will see a zinc deficiency is when the pH at the roots is too high, and if your runoff is 8.3PH I would say this might be your issue. Zinc tends to get locked at higher pH levels, and is better absorbed by the plant in a more acidic root environment. A sudden influx of phosphorus can also cause a zinc lockout in weed. Zinc deficiencies can show up if the plant is having root problems or if the plant is overwatered, even if the pH is right and the zinc is there.
Once that potential cause for zinc depletion has been ruled out, you should perform a good flush. A good flush cleans out the roots of any salt build-up and removes stale water-pockets. Reset the feed, only a little lighter. Check your pH meter is calibrated and functioning well.
Because zinc is immobile, do not expect the marijuana plant to start looking better any time soon, even in hydro. In fact, once a zinc deficiency sets in and becomes visible, those affected leaves or buds will not look much better ever again. You will have to wait for new shoots to open and flourish to evaluate. This is easier during the vegetative phase when growth is explosive rather than mid to late bloom.
The most common reason growers will see a zinc deficiency is when the pH at the roots is too high, and if your runoff is 8.3PH I would say this might be your issue. Zinc tends to get locked at higher pH levels, and is better absorbed by the plant in a more acidic root environment. A sudden influx of phosphorus can also cause a zinc lockout in weed. Zinc deficiencies can show up if the plant is having root problems or if the plant is overwatered, even if the pH is right and the zinc is there.
Once that potential cause for zinc depletion has been ruled out, you should perform a good flush. A good flush cleans out the roots of any salt build-up and removes stale water-pockets. Reset the feed, only a little lighter. Check your pH meter is calibrated and functioning well.
Because zinc is immobile, do not expect the marijuana plant to start looking better any time soon, even in hydro. In fact, once a zinc deficiency sets in and becomes visible, those affected leaves or buds will not look much better ever again. You will have to wait for new shoots to open and flourish to evaluate. This is easier during the vegetative phase when growth is explosive rather than mid to late bloom.
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
Hi folks... let me see if I can help clear up some misconceptions here. Your deficiency appears to be a late stage potassium deficiency and could probably be helped with some banana water and proper nutes.
The lockout is most likely related to pH and I am not concerned about your soil. Most of our soils for growing weed are buffered to around 6.7 or so by using a combination of dolomite lime and peat to provide an upper and lower range buffer. Some soils are pH adjusted way higher, some lower, and it depends on what that soil is designed to be used for. Most regular potting soils, Miracle Grow for example are buffered right where we need it, and unless you bought some special soil designed for growing orchids or some exotic plant, yours is most likely the same. Yes, adding perlite on the bottom instead of mixing it in was a mistake, but not a crushing one. Your soil is probably doing exactly what it needs to be doing.
So what about this runoff pH and the reading of the cheap $6 multimeter? First, lets just laugh at the multimeter and call it cute. It is less than accurate. This is not how you measure soil pH anyway. Think of runoff water like water dripping in a coffee percolator. The more grounds it goes though, the stronger the coffee. Runoff water is the same way... the more soil it drips through, the more crud it picks up along the way. You water at 6.3 and the runoff reads 7... it is because it just went through all that lime in the soil. There is no mystery here. The fallacy however is that this runoff pH number means something. It does not. It is arbitrary and random and dependent entirely on how much what you dilute it with and how fast it passed through the soil. It has nothing to do with the base pH of the soil.
So here is how pH really works. When you water correctly, you are suspending a huge column of water in the soil of that container. By weight, that column of water vastly outweighs the soil and whatever its pH is at the moment you water, that is the pH of the container of soil. As the water table drops in the container over time, the soil begins to dry out from the top and the sides if in a smart pot. As the soil dries, its ph begins to revert back to the dry base pH. The less and less the water influences that soil, the more the pH of that region in the container drifts upward toward the base pH. The pH at the top of your container in the top spreader roots will be a different pH than at the bottom where the roots are still submerged in your pH adjusted water.
Pay no attention to your runoff pH. Despite all you read and hear from the so called experts, runoff pH in soil is meaningless. It is a waste of your time to measure it or worry about it. Water with the correct pH every time and the soil will do what it was designed to do.
So back to your problem. You have been attempting to fix a potassium problem with nitrogen nutes. That is not going to work. Start applying your all purpose strongly. I bet you see an immediate greening. Keep your pH at 6.3 for every fluid that hits that soil. Trust the soil. Take a breath. What is happening is logical and fixable.
The lockout is most likely related to pH and I am not concerned about your soil. Most of our soils for growing weed are buffered to around 6.7 or so by using a combination of dolomite lime and peat to provide an upper and lower range buffer. Some soils are pH adjusted way higher, some lower, and it depends on what that soil is designed to be used for. Most regular potting soils, Miracle Grow for example are buffered right where we need it, and unless you bought some special soil designed for growing orchids or some exotic plant, yours is most likely the same. Yes, adding perlite on the bottom instead of mixing it in was a mistake, but not a crushing one. Your soil is probably doing exactly what it needs to be doing.
So what about this runoff pH and the reading of the cheap $6 multimeter? First, lets just laugh at the multimeter and call it cute. It is less than accurate. This is not how you measure soil pH anyway. Think of runoff water like water dripping in a coffee percolator. The more grounds it goes though, the stronger the coffee. Runoff water is the same way... the more soil it drips through, the more crud it picks up along the way. You water at 6.3 and the runoff reads 7... it is because it just went through all that lime in the soil. There is no mystery here. The fallacy however is that this runoff pH number means something. It does not. It is arbitrary and random and dependent entirely on how much what you dilute it with and how fast it passed through the soil. It has nothing to do with the base pH of the soil.
So here is how pH really works. When you water correctly, you are suspending a huge column of water in the soil of that container. By weight, that column of water vastly outweighs the soil and whatever its pH is at the moment you water, that is the pH of the container of soil. As the water table drops in the container over time, the soil begins to dry out from the top and the sides if in a smart pot. As the soil dries, its ph begins to revert back to the dry base pH. The less and less the water influences that soil, the more the pH of that region in the container drifts upward toward the base pH. The pH at the top of your container in the top spreader roots will be a different pH than at the bottom where the roots are still submerged in your pH adjusted water.
Pay no attention to your runoff pH. Despite all you read and hear from the so called experts, runoff pH in soil is meaningless. It is a waste of your time to measure it or worry about it. Water with the correct pH every time and the soil will do what it was designed to do.
So back to your problem. You have been attempting to fix a potassium problem with nitrogen nutes. That is not going to work. Start applying your all purpose strongly. I bet you see an immediate greening. Keep your pH at 6.3 for every fluid that hits that soil. Trust the soil. Take a breath. What is happening is logical and fixable.
Plants and soil microbes know how to sort out PH.
It's when there's an out of balance thing happening is where issues can show.
Say microbes getting toasted by water.
PH is part of it as is PPM.
The PH of my water is 6.5 (I don't use chemicals to change it)
The PPM of the water I use in 6-8ppm.
I foiler on nutrients.
Plants have stomata,
and will absorb soluble nutrients from the rain, soil and our air.
Just food for thought and adding into the convo.
EDIT:
I can come off as abrasive MF.
I've been told, accused and beat for it.
Love is the only way.
It's when there's an out of balance thing happening is where issues can show.
Say microbes getting toasted by water.
PH is part of it as is PPM.
The PH of my water is 6.5 (I don't use chemicals to change it)
The PPM of the water I use in 6-8ppm.
I foiler on nutrients.
Plants have stomata,
and will absorb soluble nutrients from the rain, soil and our air.
Just food for thought and adding into the convo.
EDIT:
I can come off as abrasive MF.
I've been told, accused and beat for it.
Love is the only way.
As you can see there many very divergent views on caring for ones cannabis/plants and the correct ways to reach optimum goals. The one constant view is the PH of water going in @ about 6.5 ish (you already know that) the rest is cumulative knowledge acquired through personnel practice and experience and it is not always a easy road to navigate. A example is to flush or not to flush, does flushing remove Nutrients or not? The subject of optimum cannabis growing has many and varied opions some interesting some not so, and some opions defended to the death and some more realistic based on facts and hence teaching moments. All you have to do is search out supper soil and how to make it, you will see the wide variations on that subject . So it comes down to research & experience to obtain info that works for you........Good luck with your grow........
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- #26
Sask420grow
Well-Known Member
Thank you all for your input and insight on this matter of mine. I feel so much better with confirmation and correction now. I understand there are differences in opinion on certain subjects.
I was not aware that ph in soil is not as detrimental as proposed by the online growers. I will for sure take all your advice and try to correct what has happened.
I did amend it with the 4–4-4, worm casting and some rock dust. I will add more 4-4-4 in a week or two.
I am assuming the fish and seaweed fertilizer is mainly a nitrate nutrient based on Emily’s comment, and no I don’t want to treat with that. I assumed it had some micro nutrients within it. I will for sure keep phing the water going in.
I’ve read in a few places that lemon juice is the go to organic solution to drop the water ph. Mine is 8.9 out of the tap.
Thank you all for your comments and help. I will post back here with follow up pictures regarding these few plants in a week or two. Thanks all.
I was not aware that ph in soil is not as detrimental as proposed by the online growers. I will for sure take all your advice and try to correct what has happened.
I did amend it with the 4–4-4, worm casting and some rock dust. I will add more 4-4-4 in a week or two.
I am assuming the fish and seaweed fertilizer is mainly a nitrate nutrient based on Emily’s comment, and no I don’t want to treat with that. I assumed it had some micro nutrients within it. I will for sure keep phing the water going in.
I’ve read in a few places that lemon juice is the go to organic solution to drop the water ph. Mine is 8.9 out of the tap.
Thank you all for your comments and help. I will post back here with follow up pictures regarding these few plants in a week or two. Thanks all.
Try collecting rain water. Dont PH test it and just take a leap of faith and water in. All the plants outside are still alive (I'll assume).
There are some seasoned growers that stand but rain water. I'm a big proponent as well. IF you PH test it, you would never use it.
Then research exactly what a PH test is. It needs to be in context.
For adding in nutrients or I guess what the OP is wanting to do is add in fertilizer with a NPK value.
What I would suggest is let the plant tell you she needs something. Adding in fertilizer for a reason is always a good thing.
Adding something at week 4 of VEG just "because" or even worse a guy at the hydro shop suggested it will grow "dank nugs" is in my opinion a gamble at best.
What I do first time with a new plant is let it grow, leave it alone and wait for her to let me know if she needs something. We all get the hang of this and likely why you posted to begin with. A learning curve is part of growing plants.
If we react and do too many things we wont get a good grasp of what changes help or hurt.
On the water thing, if you cant collect rain water, then water should be 6.5ph or close as mentioned.
Also water PH will change - let a bucket of tap water sit out over night, test it out of the spigot, then test it tomorrow. It's gonna change and may change quite a bit. That points back to what a PH test actually is measuring.
Rain water PH is a good example as well.
There are some seasoned growers that stand but rain water. I'm a big proponent as well. IF you PH test it, you would never use it.
Then research exactly what a PH test is. It needs to be in context.
For adding in nutrients or I guess what the OP is wanting to do is add in fertilizer with a NPK value.
What I would suggest is let the plant tell you she needs something. Adding in fertilizer for a reason is always a good thing.
Adding something at week 4 of VEG just "because" or even worse a guy at the hydro shop suggested it will grow "dank nugs" is in my opinion a gamble at best.
What I do first time with a new plant is let it grow, leave it alone and wait for her to let me know if she needs something. We all get the hang of this and likely why you posted to begin with. A learning curve is part of growing plants.
If we react and do too many things we wont get a good grasp of what changes help or hurt.
On the water thing, if you cant collect rain water, then water should be 6.5ph or close as mentioned.
Also water PH will change - let a bucket of tap water sit out over night, test it out of the spigot, then test it tomorrow. It's gonna change and may change quite a bit. That points back to what a PH test actually is measuring.
Rain water PH is a good example as well.
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- #28
Sask420grow
Well-Known Member
Very good information. And yes I will be able to collect rain water very soon. We are just going through a thaw right now so might be another month before it rains any. Mainly snow around here. I will for sure ph the water prior to watering. Yes I’ve also noticed the water does change over a 24hr period. Comes out the tap at 8.9 but settles after 24hrs to be 7.6-7.8 which is actually a lot. In saying that wouldn’t it keep going down over time? Even in the soil? It’s all the same component after all. I’m thinking to hard into this arnt I? Haha. Ok. I’ll settle down and let them tell me their story. Thank you
Edzzed
Well-Known Member
Just an FYI, I am using fox farms ocean forest soil and my plants are liking it. I was also babying them with nestle pure life bottled water. I poured bottles into a 5 gallon bucket with an aquarium air pump. I then had someone say what is the pH of the water. Googled it and some sites tested it and the consensus was saying 7.3 so I took out my meter and yup it was 7.3 I never tested it till that as the plants were doing so well. Now I have it pH'd at 6.3 so will see what happens in days coming. see my sig, Post #69
Collect snow. We do that in the winter time. I have a RO filter so its not needed for me but the seedlings seem to like it a little bit better.
For your tap water it's all about what is causing the alkaline conditions. It's likely chemicals of some sort which we will never know what they are despite water testing. just ask the folks that live in Flint, Mi. Oppps
Best to use rain/snow water then filtered water then ..... filtered water. My plants would all be dead if I used my tap water. It's got a lot of crap in it. PPMs @ 400ish out of the tap. We have no idea what those PPMs are and the water company is testing at the source not the spigot in my house. Food for thought.
I'm not even real comfortable taking showers in it TBH.
Snow is GREAT ... its a little bit different than rain... let it melt then PH test it. Dont worry about the results just use it. Come back with your PH test result on the snow.
It's a good topic to talk about.. lots and lots of trees and plants and of course humans depend on it.
For your tap water it's all about what is causing the alkaline conditions. It's likely chemicals of some sort which we will never know what they are despite water testing. just ask the folks that live in Flint, Mi. Oppps
Best to use rain/snow water then filtered water then ..... filtered water. My plants would all be dead if I used my tap water. It's got a lot of crap in it. PPMs @ 400ish out of the tap. We have no idea what those PPMs are and the water company is testing at the source not the spigot in my house. Food for thought.
I'm not even real comfortable taking showers in it TBH.
Snow is GREAT ... its a little bit different than rain... let it melt then PH test it. Dont worry about the results just use it. Come back with your PH test result on the snow.
It's a good topic to talk about.. lots and lots of trees and plants and of course humans depend on it.
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- #31
Sask420grow
Well-Known Member
I still don’t know what the problem was to begin with but they seem to be rebounding very well. I amended the soil with the 4-4-4 and worm casting and rock dust. Here’s a before and after pictures to compare. Been about two weeks since I amended the soil
These are the before pictures, when I got panicked.
This is the first one. Looks good. Still has some old leaves with the yellowing but I don’t care for those. Aslong as the new stuff stay healthy, I’ll be happy.
Still not sure what the deficiency was. I’m thinking it was a combination of lockouts and no more nuts in the media. These are almost three months old now haha. Owell. Hope the next 3 months go well. Cut some clones from them. They all rooted, so that’s a good sign. Now to grow grow grow
This is the first one. Looks good. Still has some old leaves with the yellowing but I don’t care for those. Aslong as the new stuff stay healthy, I’ll be happy.
Still not sure what the deficiency was. I’m thinking it was a combination of lockouts and no more nuts in the media. These are almost three months old now haha. Owell. Hope the next 3 months go well. Cut some clones from them. They all rooted, so that’s a good sign. Now to grow grow grow
New growth looks good.
In general the older leaves that were damaged usually dont come all the way back to healthy looking.
In general the older leaves that were damaged usually dont come all the way back to healthy looking.
Conradino23
Well-Known Member
It doesn’t look like a deficiency to me, but more like a toxicity or lockout and this assumption comes from what you said about your soil: way too much stuff!
I’d advise using very light mix next time and checking how they do in it. Then you can start pushing some ferts in very low concentrations if it’s necessary.
Soil is the most important thing. If you don’t get the structure right you’re gonna run into problems. But if your soil is perfect, then very few things can go wrong.
Also don’t fret about PH as it’s a dynamic indicator and it changes 24/7. It can’t be stable, cause it’s a number of hydrogen ions in your solution. For example when water is broken down into oxygen and cations of hydrogen in soil, the latter stay there affecting PH. The same thing happens when microbes digest carbon, nitrogen or minerals, PH changes. Also your runoff is not equal to PH of your soil. To actually get that you need to perform a slurry test.
And last but not least, you can’t follow guidelines for hydro growing in soil, especially in living soil. This is a total mix-up of methodologies belonging to two very different styles of growing plants.
I’d advise using very light mix next time and checking how they do in it. Then you can start pushing some ferts in very low concentrations if it’s necessary.
Soil is the most important thing. If you don’t get the structure right you’re gonna run into problems. But if your soil is perfect, then very few things can go wrong.
Also don’t fret about PH as it’s a dynamic indicator and it changes 24/7. It can’t be stable, cause it’s a number of hydrogen ions in your solution. For example when water is broken down into oxygen and cations of hydrogen in soil, the latter stay there affecting PH. The same thing happens when microbes digest carbon, nitrogen or minerals, PH changes. Also your runoff is not equal to PH of your soil. To actually get that you need to perform a slurry test.
And last but not least, you can’t follow guidelines for hydro growing in soil, especially in living soil. This is a total mix-up of methodologies belonging to two very different styles of growing plants.
Conradino23
Well-Known Member
I thought that you might be willing to read about water a bit:
What is important about it is that water is used as a dissolving agent by the plant, which means that when it passes through soil as a neutral current it picks up cations and anions, which the plant needs for the nutrition. But cause only a few are highly mobile in soil, your runoff reflects very distorted image of what’s actually in there.
Food for thought
Hydrogen bonds in water (article) | Khan Academy
The structure of water molecules and how they can interact to form hydrogen bonds.
www.khanacademy.org
What is important about it is that water is used as a dissolving agent by the plant, which means that when it passes through soil as a neutral current it picks up cations and anions, which the plant needs for the nutrition. But cause only a few are highly mobile in soil, your runoff reflects very distorted image of what’s actually in there.
Food for thought
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- #35
Sask420grow
Well-Known Member
Thank you for taking the time to try and help me through this. The old growth is still slightly yellow. I’m not too concerned aslong as the new stuff keeps coming out nice green and healthy.
I believe the issue was a combination of unproper ph and a lack of nutrient in the soil itself. As I said before, every transplant only added about an inch of soil to the mix. The rest was old used up soil. These plants are going on three MONTHS old now!! I believe the took what was available at the time and left little behind which is why they went into a sort of lockout.
After I did the last transplants and got rid of al the old soil, they started to come back around. Two of these girls were on their death beds but once I added the 4-4-4 and worm casting, they rose up!
I’m pretty sure I got this under control now as it’s been two weeks since amending the soil and everything is going like it’s supposed too. Actually, it’s going better then planned haha. Yupppy. Thanks
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- #36
Sask420grow
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the reply. I don’t believe it was a toxicity as the leaves were turning yellow which indicates a lockout. I’m pretty sure it was a lockout due to the soil ph. I used a probe ph meter for the soil and it also was reading the same as the runoff at 7.4-8.5 which I believe locked out some key micronutrients. Specially iron and zinc. Those micros are essential for photosynthesis in which my plants were obviously struggling with. Many taco leaves and extreme chlorosis.
Also I did not mention as I didn’t think it made a different but now that it’s not in the tent it makes me wonder if it did have something to do with it. CO2. At first I made my own CO2 container with sugar yeast and some baking soda. I first made a small 600ml bottle of this mix. The plants didn’t seem to be fazed at first. Then I added another 2l co2 home made. Ran those two for two weeks then added another 2l but this time it was not home made. This was the refill packs for the TNB co2 containers. I just used a old pop bottle and added the contents to it. About three days after I added this I started to notice the yellowing getting really bad. Could be a coincidence but it also could be a major factor as co2 and photosynthesis kinda go hand in hand... there all out of the grow room now and all seems to be going well. Not sure what to think of it haha.
Yes, I will read the attachment you sent. Always willing to learn something new. Thanks.
Conradino23
Well-Known Member
Lockout it might be.
As far as making your water viable and PH adjusted, you just add a bit of compost and you can water like a pro
As far as making your water viable and PH adjusted, you just add a bit of compost and you can water like a pro
I agree with Conrad. Usually its a toxicity of some sort. I'm in the school of it's hard to get a lockout in soil unless your nutrients/fertilizer you're adding in may cause it but usually it's not the case as fertilizer are water soluble for the most part. Plants take them up with water so how did a lockout happen?
The PH he talked about that's all science as is how the plant uptakes water along with nutrients.
Keep the soil moist, do not let it dry out.
If you go to your local grow shop take all advice with a grain of salt and verify with the science. They wanna sell you HYDRO gear. Soil there's not much in a hydro store I need. I've actually never been in one yet. lol
The PH he talked about that's all science as is how the plant uptakes water along with nutrients.
Keep the soil moist, do not let it dry out.
If you go to your local grow shop take all advice with a grain of salt and verify with the science. They wanna sell you HYDRO gear. Soil there's not much in a hydro store I need. I've actually never been in one yet. lol
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- #39
Sask420grow
Well-Known Member
I’m pretty sure it was a lockout. From day one. Used vinager to adjust ph as all I read online said its organic way of doing it and works well in the garden. It worked all right. Dropped my runoff from a 7.2 down to a 4. Stayed that way for at least two weeks. Then got back up to 7.2 and beyond because I didn’t adjust the water ph. Instead used the tape water that sat for 24hrs with a ph of 8.9. Well after a month of this I checked the runoff and it said 9.3-9.7. So within a month it went from low 4 up too 10. That was the major factor I think. That and the soil is said to be good for a month too two months. If the plants are struggling or I killed the microbes then that gets cut in half most times. This is what I’ve come to understand from my research on it so far. The 4-4-4 has helped tons. There back on Track now.Lockout it might be.
As far as making your water viable and PH adjusted, you just add a bit of compost and you can water like a pro
You say water with compost? Why and how? Ive got some banana water fermenting right now. Gonna try that soon.
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- #40
Sask420grow
Well-Known Member
Lockout due too using vinager to adjust water ph. Made soil bad. The two I transplanted and got all the old soil out are doing the best right now which makes me think that soil turned inhabitable too any good microorganisms. In turn the roots couldn’t get any nuts from it.
I coulda tried amending it and spending money trying to fix it but the transplant worked so I figure that was the main problem...
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