Growing Without Bloom Nutes By Farside05

I'll pull no punches. I detest Advanced Nutrients. They are way over priced, put 2 or 3 things in a bottle so you have to have a bazillion bottles or you'll have a deficiency, and hide the guaranteed analysis of what's in their products as much as legally possible so you can't see how badly you're being ripped off. It's all a slick marketing campaign. In one of those videos, Big Mike says his partners didn't want him to share that info. Why? Because it completely dispells the myths of needing all their boosters. So why do company's sell them? 1, because they are in business to make money, and 2, as long as the cannabis growers think there's a benefit, due to years of misinformation, they are gonna buy them. Is AN the only guilty party? No! Check out the Dude Grows/Dyna-Gro audio at the beginning of this thread too. Owner of Dyna tells you that you only need one product from start to finish (Foliage Pro) yet they sell Bloom formulas and other supplements too.

I'll try to hunt up the post with the 900g per sq meter. I've hit that mark 2x now. The centerpiece of one of those grows was my June 2019 Plant of the Month. A 12+ oz auto Blue Dream.
 
InTheShed said:
Salt-based vs organic nutes don't matter to the plant. A nitrogen ion is the same to the roots no matter where it comes from.
https://renegadegardener.com/myth-o...ce-between-organic-and-synthetic-fertilizers/
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InTheShed said:
The science presented in the videos doesn't jibe with the profit motive to sell products of all types to those who want to buy them. The science presented is correct, not the marketing department. You don't have to buy their nutrients to believe their lab reports.
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^^^^^^THESE x 1000!
 
Since I'm on a roll spouting my opinions, I'll weigh in on Greenleaf/Mega Crop's decision to make a 2 part powder. Horrible choice! Part B is nothing more than a bag of Calcium Nitrate. So for those that believe that you need to dial back N in flower, you're also cutting way back on Calcium too. There is no Calcium in Part A! In terms of demands of the cannabis plant, it looks something like this; Nitrogen, Potassium, Calcium, Silicon, Phosphorus. So cut part B and you're limiting 2 of the top 5 things your plants are looking for. Nutrient companies bow to profits and find it easier to go along with decades of misinformation (started by GH in the 70's) rather than educate the public.
 
BeanTownFan420 said:
Keep it coming I wanna read more information.
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You have a topic preference? Seems like I've seen plenty of misinformation on pHing nutrient solutions for buffered soil-less mediums lately. @InTheShed covered that almost 2 years ago yet people still continue to pH their feed. Hint, you don't have to.
 
farside05 said:
I'll pull no punches. I detest Advanced Nutrients. They are way over priced, put 2 or 3 things in a bottle so you have to have a bazillion bottles or you'll have a deficiency, and hide the guaranteed analysis of what's in their products as much as legally possible so you can't see how badly you're being ripped off. It's all a slick marketing campaign. In one of those videos, Big Mike says his partners didn't want him to share that info. Why? Because it completely dispells the myths of needing all their boosters. So why do company's sell them? 1, because they are in business to make money, and 2, as long as the cannabis growers think there's a benefit, due to years of misinformation, they are gonna buy them. Is AN the only guilty party? No! Check out the Dude Grows/Dyna-Gro audio at the beginning of this thread too. Owner of Dyna tells you that you only need one product from start to finish (Foliage Pro) yet they sell Bloom formulas and other supplements too.

I'll try to hunt up the post with the 900g per sq meter. I've hit that mark 2x now. The centerpiece of one of those grows was my June 2019 Plant of the Month. A 12+ oz auto Blue Dream.
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Jesus shit man 12 +oz Bluedream auto? That is insanely great nice job ur grows always kill it man. Ive been usi g the mc for awhile now myself but got given a nute line to try called pride lands at the same time i ran out of mc so tried this stuff GeoFlora so got both lol. So now im doing a side by side grow n so far both seem to be doing gud but the pridelands isnt jus one bag an GeoFlora is two one for veg n one for bloom. But so far they r both working gud but idk if they r better then mc yet or not but we will see.
farside05 said:
You have a topic preference? Seems like I've seen plenty of misinformation on pHing nutrient solutions for buffered soil-less mediums lately. @InTheShed covered that almost 2 years ago yet people still continue to pH their feed. Hint, you don't have to.
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Yea this i still dont get i mean wen i dnt ph the feed my plants go all out of wack an the leaves always go rusty on me.
 
So tonight I broke out the slide rule (my elemental calculator) to compare the 2 part Mega Crop product to the 1 part. What is the summary of my findings you ask? Greenleaf recommends 4.2g of Part A and 1.8g of Part B for full bloom. I compared that to using 6g of the single part product. The numbers match up pretty close, element for element, with one exception. The 2 part has significantly more Sulfur (like 100ppm more) than the 1 part. So what is the benefit? You're not really cutting N and boosting P and K as "traditional wisdom" suggest. You're just adding more Sulfur. One could say that if you're growing with the 1 part product, you're growing with bloom nutes from the onset. I guess there is one potential upside. Since Part B is nothing but a bag of Calcium Nitrate, you could source it from another manufacturer for about half the cost of buying Greenleaf's. That would potentially make the 2 part system cheaper, but what's it worth to the grower to not have to fiddle with 2 different products.
 
Thanks for the analysis farside! Since some folks think sulfur boosts terpenes in flower, and adding it usually boosts the K, those folks might gain an advantage using the two part system without throwing off the N:K ratio.
 
InTheShed said:
Thanks for the analysis farside! Since some folks think sulfur boosts terpenes in flower, and adding it usually boosts the K, those folks might gain an advantage using the two part system without throwing off the N:K ratio.
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If I were in possession of the 2 part, I'd probably weigh out 420g of Part A, 180g of Part B, put them in a little tupperware container, mix, and just feed that from start to finish. That would be like making up your own batch of the 1 part with higher S.
 
Has anyone looked at the newer line from Jack's? Jack's Nutrients 15-5-20, formulated for tap, city, or well water with slightly higher alkalinity & pH. I like the ratios and the slightly higher percentage of Ammoniacal Nitrogen than Mega Crop would make it a better fit with my 140ppm tap.
 
farside05 said:
Has anyone looked at the newer line from Jack's? Jack's Nutrients 15-5-20, formulated for tap, city, or well water with slightly higher alkalinity & pH. I like the ratios and the slightly higher percentage of Ammoniacal Nitrogen than Mega Crop would make it a better fit with my 140ppm tap.
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i looked at it, npks confuse me, how does a small amount of ca in tap change a 5 12 26 to 15 5 20?more cal in tap water means N increases 10 and p reduced ?
ignore me haha i cant even figure out how npks get shortened wat the point it, or how different numbers can be the same :S lol

i was gona import jacks to uk its 80 shipping ontop of the price, but MC is eu so i have access to that,
you said MC sold out and that bad.. i dont mind their cal nit price its cheap lol.and the part a

i see the #n is high through flower your right, and yah see alot saying N reduces to the end but found more saying they need it too , lol what a pretty world we live in,

i guess i should be happy mc covered jacks formula as it saves me importing jacks.
im gona swap my hydro from advanced to MC cause im in flower and i need like 4 bosters worked out my rez change costs 39 quid every 10 days wtf so i go to buy my boosters then see the ingredients i feel reluctant to buy them

so im gona swap the nutes out today for MC in hydro,
and stil do the coco side by side, which sofar seems so good.. flip flower in coco today i think also as they getting biigg

i like that i mixed MC barrell up and a advanced barrel up and after 2days advanced is black from grow A AND smells funny and has a rust skin .
whereas MC is clear looking water and clean smelling no skin or smell
 
There is no "changing" of 5-12-26 to 15-5-20. They are two different products, or blends, made by the same manufacturer.

The basics of N-P-K... The number represents the percentage of the ion based on the total volume of the product. So a N-P-K of 15-5-20 contains 15% Nitrogen, 5% Phosphorus, 20% Potassium. Whereas a N-P-K of 5-12-26 is 5% Nitrogen, 12% Phosphorus, and 26% Potassium.

I never got a clear understanding of whether you have part B of the 2 part Mega Crop system. You are supposed to use (for full bloom) 4.2g of Part A and 1.8g of Part B (per gallon). You only ever refer to the 5-12-26 (part a) and never the 15.5-0-0 (part B). Using only Part A will end in an epic failure. There is no Calcium in part A. It's meant to be used as a system, not mutually exclusive.
 
farside05 said:
There is no "changing" of 5-12-26 to 15-5-20. They are two different products, or blends, made by the same manufacturer.

The basics of N-P-K... The number represents the percentage of the ion based on the total volume of the product. So a N-P-K of 15-5-20 contains 15% Nitrogen, 5% Phosphorus, 20% Potassium. Whereas a N-P-K of 5-12-26 is 5% Nitrogen, 12% Phosphorus, and 26% Potassium.

I never got a clear understanding of whether you have part B of the 2 part Mega Crop system. You are supposed to use (for full bloom) 4.2g of Part A and 1.8g of Part B (per gallon). You only ever refer to the 5-12-26 (part a) and never the 15.5-0-0 (part B). Using only Part A will end in an epic failure. There is no Calcium in part A. It's meant to be used as a system, not mutually exclusive.
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i have both parts bro ofc lol its a 2 part so ya need the calnit b also or they wud be stuffed with deficiencys
my typing is really bad i guess i am sorry for that if in person u would understand me, typing's always been weak for me im hands on practical learning in the job kinda guy i get lost in text.

i got a and b 2 part complete,

yeah i was referring to how can the plants handle such a change, like if the difference is extra cal in tap water why does the n change so drastically from 5 to 15 and phos drops down 26 to 5 , the numbers are complete opposites and im trying to figure out why cause in my understanding for tap water wouldn't you just lessen the ca in the mix and keep the npk the same?
from 5 12 26 to 15 5 20 cause the cal is in tap water? thats looses me i know there both different ive got a good graps on products my quarry is in weather im backing the right science /right methods to increase my yeilds

i use tap but also now 2 part .. hehe two of them a and b lol :P that matches the 5 12 26.. i dont need to boost N and shit do i now lol haha working out how lol.

then how npks dont quote me on numbers but a 10 10 10 can be same as a 5 20 5 or a 12 17 40 and a 1 2 3 etc numbers are ofc made up but am sure u get what i mean people say this is the same as dah dah dah and dah dah dah so any combo wil work ... im left blank lol if ya dont get me il find a quote lol

stonersss hehe shame udont do a youtube channel lol
 
Lets start with basics. What are the ratios that you are actually feeding....

You have 2 products, Part A that is 5-12-26, and part B that is 15.5-0-0. Now the manufacturer suggests that you feed 4.2g per gal of Part A, and 1.8g per gal of part B for full bloom. You have to find the blended N-P-K of those 2 products, given how much you are feeding of both. Let's bust out the slide rule. Here is how you compute it.

Blended.jpg


You take the quantity used of each part, and multiply it by each of the N-P-K numbers. So you have 4.2g of A and multiply that 4.2 by the 5 that is the N number. That gives you 21. Multiply the 4.2 by the P number, you get 50.4. By the K number, you get 109.2. Do the same for Part B. 1.8g x a N number of 15.5 = 27.9. Now sum up all the N numbers (48.9), the P numbers (50.4), and K numbers (109.2). Divide those sums by the total number of the quantity used (4.2 + 1.8 = 6). You end up with the numbers in the bright yellow box in the chart. 8.2-8.4-18.2. Thats the real N-P-K that you are feeding your plants (bag quoted, not supplied to the plant). Now lets adjust that for what the plant really gets out of the mix....

"P and K percentages shown on fertilizer packages are not the actual amount of P or K in the blend. The percentage of P on the package is the percentage of P2O5 (phosphorous pentoxide) and you need to multiply the percentage shown by .43 to get the actual amount of P in the fertilizer. Similarly, the K level percentage shown is actually the level of K2O ( potassium oxide) and must be multiplied by .83 to arrive at the actual amount of K supplied."

So we have to adjust the P & K numbers downward. The N will stay the same at 8.2, the P is now 3.612 (8.4 * .43), and the K is 15.106 (18.2 *.83). Simplify that and its 2.27-1-4.18 or 2-1-4 with rounding. Myself, I have found my best results are closer to 2-1-3 or 2-1-4, so that's what I try to target my N-P-K to be. The 4.2g Part A and 1.8g Part B is right in there.

So when I go shopping for fertilizer, I try to find products that will help me attain the goal of 2-1-3 to 2-1-4l. Would I be interest in a 10-10-10. Nope! I'm wanting something where the middle number is smaller than the two ends, with the far right number (K) slightly higher than the far left number (N). How about a 3-12-6? No again. 9-6-17? Now we are closer. What if I bumped up the N number a little bit by adding another N source, with say some Cal Mag? Now I can get close to my 2-1-3 target. So when I mention Jack's 15-5-20 (simplified 3-1-4) its because its close to my target and I can use other supplements as I see fit to adjust the Blended N-P-K to meet my goal.

Fertilizer companies make hundreds of different N-P-K combinations. Sifting through them to find which products meet your needs is the trying part. Some people may desire a different ratio based what they are growing (ie lawn grass which has different requirements than cannabis). Other people may prefer another blend based on a soil sample and what it says they are lacking. If I had a soil sample that said my soil had plenty of N but very little K, I'd want a fertilizer that had low N value and a high K value. Since I grow in a soil-less mix, which has no nutritional value, I don't have to worry about what's already in my soil, and as previously stated, I find 2-1-3 to 2-1-4 does the trick.

In summary, feed per the manufacturers directions. No need for any other supplements, teas, boosters, etc. You should be in the sweet spot (2-1-4 actual supplied to the plant N-P-K).

Hope that helps.
 
farside05 said:
Lets start with basics. What are the ratios that you are actually feeding....

You have 2 products, Part A that is 5-12-26, and part B that is 15.5-0-0. Now the manufacturer suggests that you feed 4.2g per gal of Part A, and 1.8g per gal of part B for full bloom. You have to find the blended N-P-K of those 2 products, given how much you are feeding of both. Let's bust out the slide rule. Here is how you compute it.

Blended.jpg


You take the quantity used of each part, and multiply it by each of the N-P-K numbers. So you have 4.2g of A and multiply that 4.2 by the 5 that is the N number. That gives you 21. Multiply the 4.2 by the P number, you get 50.4. By the K number, you get 109.2. Do the same for Part B. 1.8g x a N number of 15.5 = 27.9. Now sum up all the N numbers (48.9), the P numbers (50.4), and K numbers (109.2). Divide those sums by the total number of the quantity used (4.2 + 1.8 = 6). You end up with the numbers in the bright yellow box in the chart. 8.2-8.4-18.2. Thats the real N-P-K that you are feeding your plants (bag quoted, not supplied to the plant). Now lets adjust that for what the plant really gets out of the mix....

"P and K percentages shown on fertilizer packages are not the actual amount of P or K in the blend. The percentage of P on the package is the percentage of P2O5 (phosphorous pentoxide) and you need to multiply the percentage shown by .43 to get the actual amount of P in the fertilizer. Similarly, the K level percentage shown is actually the level of K2O ( potassium oxide) and must be multiplied by .83 to arrive at the actual amount of K supplied."

So we have to adjust the P & K numbers downward. The N will stay the same at 8.2, the P is now 3.612 (8.4 * .43), and the K is 15.106 (18.2 *.83). Simplify that and its 2.27-1-4.18 or 2-1-4 with rounding. Myself, I have found my best results are closer to 2-1-3 or 2-1-4, so that's what I try to target my N-P-K to be. The 4.2g Part A and 1.8g Part B is right in there.

So when I go shopping for fertilizer, I try to find products that will help me attain the goal of 2-1-3 to 2-1-4l. Would I be interest in a 10-10-10. Nope! I'm wanting something where the middle number is smaller than the two ends, with the far right number (K) slightly higher than the far left number (N). How about a 3-12-6? No again. 9-6-17? Now we are closer. What if I bumped up the N number a little bit by adding another N source, with say some Cal Mag? Now I can get close to my 2-1-3 target. So when I mention Jack's 15-5-20 (simplified 3-1-4) its because its close to my target and I can use other supplements as I see fit to adjust the Blended N-P-K to meet my goal.

Fertilizer companies make hundreds of different N-P-K combinations. Sifting through them to find which products meet your needs is the trying part. Some people may desire a different ratio based what they are growing (ie lawn grass which has different requirements than cannabis). Other people may prefer another blend based on a soil sample and what it says they are lacking. If I had a soil sample that said my soil had plenty of N but very little K, I'd want a fertilizer that had low N value and a high K value. Since I grow in a soil-less mix, which has no nutritional value, I don't have to worry about what's already in my soil, and as previously stated, I find 2-1-3 to 2-1-4 does the trick.

In summary, feed per the manufacturers directions. No need for any other supplements, teas, boosters, etc. You should be in the sweet spot (2-1-4 actual supplied to the plant N-P-K).

Hope that helps.
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My god that was the best read ever.
Totaly get the number mixup there now.
I think wel clearer anyway lol

So to clarify my 5 12 26 would he more 20 12 26 once calnit is added?

So the tap version is already dialed that way yeah?
 
Pondwater said:
My god that was the best read ever.
Totaly get the number mixup there now.
I think wel clearer anyway lol

So to clarify my 5 12 26 would he more 20 12 26 once calnit is added?

So the tap version is already dialed that way yeah?
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When the Part B (Calcium Nitrate) is added, in the suggested amount, it is exactly as the table in my previous post suggests. It's 8-8-18. You can't simply add the 15 N number from Part B to the 5 number from Part A. You're using different amounts of each product.

There is no "tap" vs "R.O." version of Mega Crop. Just disregard any of that. There are fertilizers out there that are better for higher alkalinity, higher pH water. That all has to do with the percentage of Ammoniacal to Nitrate Nitrogen that makes up the N component and how it effects the pH of your growing media over time. As long as you have fairly decent water, under 200 ppm, the Mega Crop you have should be fine.
 
farside05 said:
Lets start with basics. What are the ratios that you are actually feeding....

You have 2 products, Part A that is 5-12-26, and part B that is 15.5-0-0. Now the manufacturer suggests that you feed 4.2g per gal of Part A, and 1.8g per gal of part B for full bloom. You have to find the blended N-P-K of those 2 products, given how much you are feeding of both. Let's bust out the slide rule. Here is how you compute it.

Blended.jpg


You take the quantity used of each part, and multiply it by each of the N-P-K numbers. So you have 4.2g of A and multiply that 4.2 by the 5 that is the N number. That gives you 21. Multiply the 4.2 by the P number, you get 50.4. By the K number, you get 109.2. Do the same for Part B. 1.8g x a N number of 15.5 = 27.9. Now sum up all the N numbers (48.9), the P numbers (50.4), and K numbers (109.2). Divide those sums by the total number of the quantity used (4.2 + 1.8 = 6). You end up with the numbers in the bright yellow box in the chart. 8.2-8.4-18.2. Thats the real N-P-K that you are feeding your plants (bag quoted, not supplied to the plant). Now lets adjust that for what the plant really gets out of the mix....

"P and K percentages shown on fertilizer packages are not the actual amount of P or K in the blend. The percentage of P on the package is the percentage of P2O5 (phosphorous pentoxide) and you need to multiply the percentage shown by .43 to get the actual amount of P in the fertilizer. Similarly, the K level percentage shown is actually the level of K2O ( potassium oxide) and must be multiplied by .83 to arrive at the actual amount of K supplied."

So we have to adjust the P & K numbers downward. The N will stay the same at 8.2, the P is now 3.612 (8.4 * .43), and the K is 15.106 (18.2 *.83). Simplify that and its 2.27-1-4.18 or 2-1-4 with rounding. Myself, I have found my best results are closer to 2-1-3 or 2-1-4, so that's what I try to target my N-P-K to be. The 4.2g Part A and 1.8g Part B is right in there.

So when I go shopping for fertilizer, I try to find products that will help me attain the goal of 2-1-3 to 2-1-4l. Would I be interest in a 10-10-10. Nope! I'm wanting something where the middle number is smaller than the two ends, with the far right number (K) slightly higher than the far left number (N). How about a 3-12-6? No again. 9-6-17? Now we are closer. What if I bumped up the N number a little bit by adding another N source, with say some Cal Mag? Now I can get close to my 2-1-3 target. So when I mention Jack's 15-5-20 (simplified 3-1-4) its because its close to my target and I can use other supplements as I see fit to adjust the Blended N-P-K to meet my goal.

Fertilizer companies make hundreds of different N-P-K combinations. Sifting through them to find which products meet your needs is the trying part. Some people may desire a different ratio based what they are growing (ie lawn grass which has different requirements than cannabis). Other people may prefer another blend based on a soil sample and what it says they are lacking. If I had a soil sample that said my soil had plenty of N but very little K, I'd want a fertilizer that had low N value and a high K value. Since I grow in a soil-less mix, which has no nutritional value, I don't have to worry about what's already in my soil, and as previously stated, I find 2-1-3 to 2-1-4 does the trick.

In summary, feed per the manufacturers directions. No need for any other supplements, teas, boosters, etc. You should be in the sweet spot (2-1-4 actual supplied to the plant N-P-K).

Hope that helps.
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Excellent post I bookmarked for later. I always seem to learn something from your posts keep them coming!
 
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