GeoFlora Nutrients Discussion Thread

[bobrown14]

I am sure that the result is an organic grow, but do large quantities of any composted organic fertilizer burn plants?

In an organic soil you can add large quantities of soil organic matter (not fertilizer) and amendments way more than a plant will need during its grow and not burn the plants.

That organic matter needs to be broken down into those soluble "salts" for plant uptake. The process for that break down is microbes being fed by the plant via root exudate, those microbes in turn break down specific nutrients the plant needs.

This is done with the carbs in the root exudate that the plant is able to change to feed a specific microbe that will break down a specific nutrient. The exudate will create a large population of those specific microbes the plants want to promote.

My soil has more than enough amendments not in soluble form. So all we need is to supply enough of everything or even more than enough amendments so they are all there for the plant and microbes to break down as needed.

 

[ChefDGreen]

I am still trying to understand why you think that predator microbes need to be involved. Microbes do not have to die to give up the goodness they are carrying. Some microbes eat a raw mineral and then excrete a more usable form of that mineral for the plant. Many will excrete this useable element and receive an exudate from the plant in exchange, each nourishing the other. It is rare to see a microbe have to die and decompose in order to release the element, but that does happen too.

Incorrect - bacteria do not give up the materials they sequester without being consumed and excreted by a predator. The food sources for bacteria typically have a carbon to nitrogen ratio of 30:1. Typical bacterial bodies have a carbon to nitrogen ratio of 5:1. Bacteria don’t secrete anything but CO2, they store it. Once their concentration of N is high enough in the cytoplasm, they go into reproduction, splitting into two new bacteria and going out in search of a food source. Fungi are different, their C:N ratio differs depending upon where on the hyphae you’re taking a sample. Growth tips are 5:1 but older hyphae sequester carbon and can have C:N ratios near 1000:1. In the case of endomycorrhizal fungi, they do translocate nutrients to the roots based on chemical signals in the exudates so there is a feeding the plant mechanism in that relationship.

If you look at any of the most productive systems on planet earth - old growth forest, rain forest, tropical jungle etc - you will see predatory organism secretions making up 99% of soluble nutrients. That is the method of creating a highly productive organic system. There is a multitude of research papers about the subject.

 

[bobrown14]

Incorrect - bacteria do not give up the materials they sequester without being consumed and excreted by a predator. The food sources for bacteria typically have a carbon to nitrogen ratio of 30:1. Typical bacterial bodies have a carbon to nitrogen ratio of 5:1. Bacteria don’t secrete anything but CO2, they store it. Once their concentration of N is high enough in the cytoplasm, they go into reproduction, splitting into two new bacteria and going out in search of a food source. Fungi are different, their C:N ratio differs depending upon where on the hyphae you’re taking a sample. Growth tips are 5:1 but older hyphae sequester carbon and can have C:N ratios near 1000:1. In the case of endomycorrhizal fungi, they do translocate nutrients to the roots based on chemical signals in the exudates so there is a feeding the plant mechanism in that relationship.

If you look at any of the most productive systems on planet earth - old growth forest, rain forest, tropical jungle etc - you will see predatory organism secretions making up 99% of soluble nutrients. That is the method of creating a highly productive organic system. There is a multitude of research papers about the subject.

Bingo.... this ^^^^

The fungi that have a symbiotic relationship with plants roots are actually extensions of those roots extending the reach if you will and in tern for their hard work the plants trade nutrients/water the fungi bring back to the plant with root exudate.

Root exudate is key.

The source of root exudate is photosynthesis in the leaves that are translocated from leaves to the roots.

The really cool question is how does the plant decide in what form of exudate to send down to the rhizosphere? Where does that happen and how?

Thats one of my missing links.

 

[ChefDGreen]

Bingo.... this ^^^^

The fungi that have a symbiotic relationship with plants roots are actually extensions of those roots extending the reach if you will and in tern for their hard work the plants trade nutrients/water the fungi bring back to the plant with root exudate.

Root exudate is key.

The source of root exudate is photosynthesis in the leaves that are translocated from leaves to the roots.

The really cool question is how does the plant decide in what form of exudate to send down to the rhizosphere? Where does that happen and how?

Thats one of my missing links.

The form of exudates secreted directly correlates to the elements required for further growth, that much we do know. How the plant makes that decision and where it happens I’m not sure about. I haven’t dove deep into plant physiology yet though, perhaps it’s documented somewhere.


I feel like @InTheShed hit the nail on the head. Just as an outside observer I would surmise that geoflora is an organically sourced slow release nutrient that is delivering soluble nutrients over time. Perhaps the bacterial additions are to make sure those solubles aren’t leached out and the fungal additions are to increase soluble uptake. That’s why I prosed my questions for Geoflora.

 

[ChefDGreen]

Bingo.... this ^^^^

The fungi that have a symbiotic relationship with plants roots are actually extensions of those roots extending the reach if you will and in tern for their hard work the plants trade nutrients/water the fungi bring back to the plant with root exudate.

Root exudate is key.

The source of root exudate is photosynthesis in the leaves that are translocated from leaves to the roots.

The really cool question is how does the plant decide in what form of exudate to send down to the rhizosphere? Where does that happen and how?

Thats one of my missing links.

Not only extending the reach, but also allowing for plant to plant translocation such as the case with clover and other nitrogen fixing cover crops.

 

[Emilya Green]

Bingo.... this ^^^^

The fungi that have a symbiotic relationship with plants roots are actually extensions of those roots extending the reach if you will and in tern for their hard work the plants trade nutrients/water the fungi bring back to the plant with root exudate.

Root exudate is key.

The source of root exudate is photosynthesis in the leaves that are translocated from leaves to the roots.

The really cool question is how does the plant decide in what form of exudate to send down to the rhizosphere? Where does that happen and how?

Thats one of my missing links.

It is my understanding that the plants themselves decide what message they wish to send to the microbes through the exudate. I am also sure that there in fact is an exchange going on here, nobody necessarily dies, and they circle back around to do it again. Since the lifespan however is very short a lot do eventually die and disintegrate into the soil, so I can see that in the aggregate, you are probably right about the nutrition that remains in the soil. The amount of feeding that goes on between microbe and root or microbe and fungi and then to the root can not be ignored. It is not all about death when it comes to the living plant and living microbes that are in a symbiotic relationship, that maybe we should call the small feeding cycle, whereas when we look at the big picture, death of course has a lot to do with things too in the large organic feeding cycle.

 

[ChefDGreen]

It’s predator and prey interaction that drives nutrient cycling - it’s the jungles of Africa… on a micro scale

 

[Emilya Green]

so while I sit back and let the real experts respond to you about their product and why it works, let me ask one question for you to ponder. Why is it that all of the microbial inoculation products previously mentioned are lacking in the very same microbes that you seem to be looking for??

 

[DonkeyDick]

Bacteria don’t secrete anything but CO2, they store it.

This isn’t my bailiwick either (thanks, Shed) you all seem to know an awful lot.
I have to pull this sentence as bunkum. The only thing that makes certain bacteria toxic to humans is their secretions.
A lot of to-and-fro and fast typing on all sides, but this unqualified statement must be an oversimplification, surely?
Maybe a quick reminder to the casual reader that we are talking about gardening not medicine. Maybe things are different underground.

Thanks all. As you were.

 

[ChefDGreen]

so while I sit back and let the real experts respond to you about their product and why it works, let me ask one question for you to ponder. Why is it that all of the microbial inoculation products previously mentioned are lacking in the very same microbes that you seem to be looking for??

simple, because they are not Biocomplete soil amendments. biocomplete soil amendments are made from whatever biology is living in your environment, there are no one size fits all solutions. it takes a microscope and an understanding of morphology.

This isn’t my bailiwick either (thanks, Shed) you all seem to know an awful lot.
I have to pull this sentence as bunkum. The only thing that makes certain bacteria toxic to humans is their secretions.
A lot of to-and-fro and fast typing on all sides, but this unqualified statement must be an oversimplification, surely?
Maybe a quick reminder to the casual reader that we are talking about gardening not medicine. Maybe things are different underground.

Thanks all. As you were.

Oh excuse me, I meant to say *aerobic bacteria. pathogenic bacteria are mostly true anaerobes with a few being facultative anaerobes.

 

[ChefDGreen]

I am sure that the result is an organic grow, but do large quantities of any composted organic fertilizer burn plants?

you can grow plants in only biocomplete compost

 

[bobrown14]

This isn’t my bailiwick either (thanks, Shed) you all seem to know an awful lot.
I have to pull this sentence as bunkum. The only thing that makes certain bacteria toxic to humans is their secretions.
A lot of to-and-fro and fast typing on all sides, but this unqualified statement must be an oversimplification, surely?
Maybe a quick reminder to the casual reader that we are talking about gardening not medicine. Maybe things are different underground.

Thanks all. As you were.

This is part of it fer sure and how bacteria survive. Their secretions also help with soil tilth as do the contents of their cells when they die and break down. This happens all the time in soil.

These secretions actually help soil organic matter stick together. This in turn creates soil tilth and humus. These are very important functions. One of the reasons using synthetic fetilizers negatively effect the soil structure.

 

[ChefDGreen]

This is part of it fer sure and how bacteria survive. Their secretions also help with soil tilth as do the contents of their cells when they die and break down. This happens all the time in soil.

These secretions actually help soil organic matter stick together. This in turn creates soil tilth and humus. These are very important functions. One of the reasons using synthetic fetilizers negatively effect the soil structure.

aerobic bacteria excrete 2 things, CO2 and H2O.. nothing else. what you're thinking of are the alkaline glues that bacteria produce. Alkaline glues create microaggregates which are in turn pulled together by fungal hyphae and the acidic glues that fungi make, creating macroaggregates.

 

[BakedARea]

Just when I thought I was going to go back to school to become a soil biologist. Then I started reading the most recent convos. Something about secretions
I'll stick to making really good tacos instead.

I have introduced @DYNOMYCO and Earth Alive's Soil Activator to every plant I have grown with @GeoFlora Nutrients . I am a big believer in diversity when it comes to the microbiology happening in my soils. I personally cannot dedicate enough time or mental energy to do deep dives into the detailed science of it all. There is a part of mother nature that we I will simply never understand. I have come to terms with simply doing my best to provide the diversity and allow them to live and thrive on their terms. They will create their own balance far more effectively than I could ever accomplish.

I don't fault any of you trying to dive deeper and getting a better understanding. It's inspiring to read and see that valuable discussions and sharing of ideas here folks. Thank you for a good read tonight.

 

[bobrown14]

aerobic bacteria excrete 2 things, CO2 and H2O.. nothing else. what you're thinking of are the alkaline glues that bacteria produce. Alkaline glues create microaggregates which are in turn pulled together by fungal hyphae and the acidic glues that fungi make, creating macroaggregates.

How do nitrogen fixing bacteria fix nitrogen to plants roots (legumes) if all they do is co2 and h2o?

Then there's the same question for Denitrifying bacteria or Photosynthetic bacteria that break down sulfur among other things.

Then there's the Actinomycetes that are responsible for many human antibiotics.

Its not really the question of what bacteria do while they are alive its what they give back once they die and the cell membrane breaks down in soil. Which happens quickly as a bacterium lives on average 12 hrs.

With good conditions bacterial populations can double in 15-30 minutes.

But you are touching on 1 important thing and that is how we get greenhouse gasses from agriculture. Carbon released into the atmosphere. Also plants are able to absorb and store carbon in the soil and plant cells and why trees are so important for example.

This all gets pretty complicated - we hoo-man dont really know much about bacteria and interactions with plants and root exudates.

I'm with @BakedARea and we working on taco perfections. Prolly about the only thing I can wrap my hands around and do it with skill.

 

[Emilya Green]

Found this on the web at: 5 Types of Soil Microbes And What They Do For Plants

Beneficial soil microbes form symbiotic relationships with the plant. In fact, the plant will exert as much as 30% of its energy to the root zone to make food for microbes. In return those microbes not only protect the plant from stress, but also feed the plant by converting and holding nutrients in the soil.

What Are The Different Types Of Soil Microbes?​

There are five different types of soil microbes: bacteria, actinomycetes, fungi, protozoa and nematodes. Each of these microbe types has a different job to boost soil and plant health.

Bacteria​

Bacteria is the crucial workforce of soils. They are the final stage of breaking down nutrients and releasing them to the root zone for the plant. In fact, the Food and Agriculture Organization once said “Bacteria may well be the most valuable of life forms in the soil.”

Actinomycetes​

Actinomycetes were once classified as fungi, and act similarly in the soil. However, some actinomycetes are predators and will harm the plant while others living in the soil can act as antibiotics for the plant.

Fungi​

Like bacteria, fungi also lives in the rootzone and helps make nutrients available to plants. For example, Mycorrhizae is a fungi that facilitate water and nutrient uptake by the roots and plants to provide sugars, amino acids and other nutrients.

Protozoa​

Protozoa are larger microbes that love to consume and be surrounded by bacteria. In fact, nutrients that are eaten by bacteria are released when protozoa in turn eat the bacteria.

Nematodes​

Nematodes are microscopic worms that live around or inside the plant. Some nematodes are predators while others are beneficial, eating pathogenic nematodes and secreting nutrients to the plant.

 

[bluter]

This is not my bailiwick, but I did have this thought: since GeoFlora is supposed to work in non-microbe environments like peat and coco, is it possible that it's really just a soluble organic nutrient delivery system?

looks more and more like it from a quick scrub through their website.

The fact that they can actually list NPK/Ca/Mg/S percentages (which is impossible for an organic soil grow without lab analysis) makes it seem as if it's more like an organically sourced version of synthetic nutrients.

they have dried and granulated them. most of the other approaches would leave them liquified.
they actually remind me loads of another debated nute. aside from delivery they are looking closer.

 

[GeoFlora Nutrients]

@ChefDGreen @Emilya @BakedARea @bobrown14 @bluter and anyone I may have missed who chimed in...

Gosh guys, you and your big beautiful brains are way outta my league.

I'm gonna toss the baton to my science department and get back to you with (hopefully) some clarity! Hope to have this back to you within a day or two!

 

[Emilya Green]

... and secreting nutrients to the plant.

just wanted to make sure this point isn't missed because it clearly points out that someone here doesn't quite know everything about the subject that he claims he does. There is a lot of guessing going on in this thread, and again, I would like to hear from the scientists at @GeoFlora Nutrients before this debate goes any further down the wrong path.

I totally believe that Geoflora is able to pack the raw nutrients and only a few of the specific worker microbes into the mix, and that it will work just fine on our short time container grows. I don't give 2 flips about whether I am processing the soil for the good of the environment or that I am not totally processing all the nutrients in the soil, I just want the system to effectively feed my plants for a short time. But to disparage our good sponsor and imply that their organic feeding system is not what they describe, is simply rude. To say something is not in your bailiwick, but then go on anyway to bad mouth a product or system, that goes beyond rude and intrudes on being slanderous.

 

[BakedARea]

I totally believe that Geoflora is able to pack the raw nutrients and only a few of the specific worker microbes into the mix, and that it will work just fine on our short time container grows.

To me, this has been my thought about this product. They are providing everything to feed the plant. It has worked for me and it's easy to do. I just need to keep my topdressing and soil moist enough to not slow down the microbiology. My underwatering habits are a hurdle.

I do think it is within reason for people to ask how or why the product works. I think that's where the recent discussion has progressed. I didn't read any rudeness in the previous responses from anyone Em. Not sure I'm seeing the correlation, sorry.

I am not well versed in a lot of this, but I do enjoy learning about it. Any sort of ignorance and questioning of products should come from a place of respect. I will agree with that. At the end of the day, if the product isn't for you, then move on and accept that it does work for others.