First plants need help!

[cbdhemp808]

@013 @cbdhemp808 I have no dispute with you. But you left @ellebelle's question unanswered.

Uh, no. I did answer the question:

"Beautiful plants... good job. If they are females, they should show their sex soon. Keep an eye on the upper nodes on the main stem... females show two little stigmas (white hairs) coming out of bracts on either side of the node..."

Which is true, and doesn't have anything to do with "the photoperiod". When I say "the photoperiod," obviously I'm not making reference to a photoperiod cannabis plant, as in photoperiod plants vs. autoflowering plants. (We call them photos or autos.)

Definition of photoperiod: "the period of time each day during which an organism receives illumination; day length."

Depending on where you are on the Earth, and what time of the year it is, you will have a specific day length, and night length. For a given location, the variation in photoperiod during the year is called the photoperiod cycle.

I grow outdoors and there isn't a switch to flip. When the plants are mature, about 6 or 8 weeks old, gender is usually set and will show then in subtle ways (a pre-flower) and in the plant's growth going forward in various ways, in flowering.

The question at hand is when does a plant first indicate its gender. Plain and simple. With feminized seed, we usually don't think about it. If we grow regular seed (males & females), then we are very interested to know what gender the plants are, as soon as possible.

If you were in Denver, Colorado, and had started growing an outdoor garden of indica plants, on May 1, then by June 15 (let's say) the plants would have indicated their gender. The photoperiod (day length) on June 15 in Denver is about 14.87 hours, and the night length about 9.12 hours. The plants have matured and shown their gender, but the night length is not sufficient to induce flowering. That will happen around mid August when night length reaches 10.5 hours.

So, again, pre-flowering (and gender determination) happens regardless of the photoperiod, and whether or not the plants are going into the flowering phase.

While I am not disputing what you have said, this discussion has mostly been a miscommunication owing to the words used to describe how the plants develop in your experiences. "Photoperiod" can refer to a plant that is not an autoflowering strain. "Photoperiod" also can refer to the day length. Both are correct as a matter of fact. When you say photoperiod has nothing to do with gender, I have to ask myself what it is you are trying to say.

Well, it seems you have been disputing what I'm saying. I think I was fairly clear in my communication, so I think the misunderstand is on your end, my friend. I never said "photoperiod has nothing to do with gender" I originally said, "I don't think showing gender is related to the photoperiod." And then further clarified that, "Showing gender is neither related to, nor caused by the photoperiod – they will show gender regardless of night length."

In English, if someone says, "when a plant shows its gender, this is not related to the photoperiod," the use of the word, photoperiod, in this context can only be construed as meaning the photoperiod, which implies the noun, photoperiod, which is defined as day length.

If anyone talks about photoperiod – meaning photoperiod not autoflowering – then they are talking about a photoperiod plant, or photoperiod plants. In this context, photoperiod is a noun modifier that acts like an adjective.

There's no mistaking the difference.

I hope now you understand what I'm conveying.

 

[Emeraldo]

Ok, "soon". That's about what I said, too (though you might disagree ).

But "we" (those in the know) knew that already. I hope @ellebelle understands your overly technical explanation of what "we" knew already because she was asking the question, not me. 'Nuff said here, bro. Be well...

 

[cbdhemp808]

Ok, "soon". That's about what I said, too (though you might disagree ).

But "we" (those in the know) knew that already. I hope @ellebelle understands your overly technical explanation of what "we" knew already because she was asking the question, not me. 'Nuff said here, bro. Be well...

No bro, you were just wrong and don't have the humility to admit it...

They will not show gender until about two weeks after they receive 12+ hours of darkness each 24 hours.

My information to Elle was spot on, not "overly technical", and with photos showing what to look for.

Do you agree, bro?

I got technical with you because you speak in circles and claim I said things I didn't say. I had to spell things out very clearly to you. Do you understand now?

 

[Long Time Coming]

@ellebelle I'm not sure the truth, or the specifics, in what I'm about to say, but it has helped me understand (i think) the life of cannabis.

I read somewhere there is a specific hormone the plant makes throughout its entire life cycle that is responsible for flowering. Once the plant gets a certain concentration of this hormone they will begin flowering. The problem is that UV light destroys it. By keeping the lighting cycle above 12 hours (or so) there is enough time during the day for the hormone levels to be broken down and the plant to continue to veg. If vegged long enough, they will reach sexual maturity at which point the pre-flowers will show. Usually at the same time the branches will switch to alternating growth instead of growing in pairs. You can continue to veg past this point with no ill effects until youre ready to flower, they will just put out more pre-flowers.

Once the light is brought down to 12 hours per day (or so), there is not enough UV to break down the hormone and the levels within the plant will reach the point of triggering flowering. This can take some time though. If your plants arent mature (pre-flowers) it can take two weeks or more for the flowers to start showing. However, if your plants are sexually mature, they can start putting out real flowers much faster as the levels of the hormone were already at peak (without being able to trigger flowering) beforehand.

Interestingly, I also read somewhere that THC is one of the best natural UV blockers. If so, it would be an extra benefit from covering itself in trichomes to help protect from the UV.

Again, I tried finding the articles that talked about the flowering hormone and UV blocking abilities but I cant find them so take everything with a grain of salt. However, the analogy has helped me so hope it helps you!

 

[Delps8]

@ViparSpectra has a great new light for smaller grows. The XS-1500 and is on sale now. CL

Agree 100%. The plants in the photos are not getting much light (they're quite tall, have very few leaves, and have large internodal space).

The XS-1500 Pro, which is the successor to the XS-1500, is a superb light for a 2' x 2' space. It's on the 'Zon for $139, which is a great price, but there's a $40 coupon so it's only $99. That's a gift.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I read somewhere there is a specific hormone the plant makes throughout its entire life cycle that is responsible for flowering. Once the plant gets a certain concentration of this hormone they will begin flowering. The problem is that UV light destroys it. By keeping the lighting cycle above 12 hours (or so) there is enough time during the day for the hormone levels to be broken down and the plant to continue to veg. If vegged long enough, they will reach sexual maturity at which point the pre-flowers will show. Usually at the same time the branches will switch to alternating growth instead of growing in pairs. You can continue to veg past this point with no ill effects until youre ready to flower, they will just put out more pre-flowers.

Once the light is brought down to 12 hours per day (or so), there is not enough UV to break down the hormone and the levels within the plant will reach the point of triggering flowering. This can take some time though. If your plants arent mature (pre-flowers) it can take two weeks or more for the flowers to start showing. However, if your plants are sexually mature, they can start putting out real flowers much faster as the levels of the hormone were already at peak (without being able to trigger flowering) beforehand.

Hey Long Time,

This is something I have studied. The name of the hormone is phytochrome, and it comes in two interrelated forms – Phytochrome Red (PR) and Phytochrome Far Red (PFR). It's not UV light which "resets" the hormone – it's a specific wavelength of red light.

Here are my notes on the subject – this is objective truth, by the way, not opinion... this is the science:

"Cannabis plants are referred to as long night or short day plants, because they require a long period of darkness to trigger the hormones that tell the plant to switch from vegetative growth to flowering. These light receptors are color pigments in the leaves called Phytochrome Red (PR) and Phytochrome Far Red (PFR). These pigments get their names from the types of light they absorb. PR absorbs red light between 660 and 760 nm and PFR absorbs far red light between 760 and 800 nm. These two pigments chemically react to the light, and trigger the plant to flower or not.​

​

This is where it gets a little confusing.​

​

In cannabis plants, the normal presence of PFR switches off the flowering signal. The level of PFR is what you can manipulate by adjusting the photoperiod [i.e. day length, and hence night length]. PFR is quickly produced when plants are exposed to light that contains far red wavelengths. When there is light, the PFR and PR maintain a balance. When the sun goes down or the lights go out, the darkness gradually switches the PFR to PR."​

​

For indoor growers, flipping your light schedule is how you induce flowering, because you are making the night length 12 hours. (Note 12 hours is used just to be on the safe side, even though most cannabis will flower when night length is 10.5 hours.) When night length is 12 hours, for a few nights in a row, PFR gets converted to PR, and the plants begin to flower.

Outdoor growers depend on the sun for growing their plants, so there is no "flip" in the indoor growing sense. But outdoor growers can use night interruption lighting – which is what I do – to convert the PR back to PFR. The lights go on in my veg house automatically at 12 midnight, 2 am, and 4 am, for a few minutes each time. I use inexpensive daylight spectrum LED bulbs, 13 watt. The light emitted contains the red wavelengths necessary to convert PR to PFR. I can then "flip" by moving my plants to the flower house, where there is no night interruption lighting.

Here's a good article on the subject:

Cannabis Photoperiod Hacks to Increase Your Yields — Elevated Botanist

A lot of growers are leaving money on the table due to a failure of imagination. The idea that cannabis should always veg at eighteen hours of light and flower at twelve is wrong. Cannabis plants do not require total darkness to flower and trivial light leaks will not cause plants to “hermi” For th

www.elevatedbotanist.com

 

[StonedCrumpet]

@ellebelle welcome.

Your early girls look good. A few tweeks and I think you could encourage some more growth and a healthier start. I'd like to ask are you checking temperatures and humidity where you're growing? How often your watering and what nutrients your adding to your juice, if at all?

I'm sorry you had to have disagreements on your first posts. It is not a good look and I promise you it is extremely rare to have on here. People will have different opinions in life and different approaches to growing. I advise you to take what information works for you, tweek it and find your own style, as I did.

Always be safe. If your unsure about anything, always do homework.

I see you are deciding on new light systems. @CaptainLucky offered some great advice there. Whatever you decide, always take the utmost care with how you maintain your cables and electrics - especially around the company of you watering your girls!

Hit me up if you ever have any questions. If I can't help I will try direct you to someone who could potentially help you out.

Be safe

 

[CaptainLucky]

@ellebelle welcome.

Your early girls look good. A few tweeks and I think you could encourage some more growth and a healthier start. I'd like to ask are you checking temperatures and humidity where you're growing? How often your watering and what nutrients your adding to your juice, if at all?

I'm sorry you had to have disagreements on your first posts. It is not a good look and I promise you it is extremely rare to have on here. People will have different opinions in life and different approaches to growing. I advise you to take what information works for you, tweek it and find your own style, as I did.

Always be safe. If your unsure about anything, always do homework.

I see you are deciding on new light systems. @CaptainLucky offered some great advice there. Whatever you decide, always take the utmost care with how you maintain your cables and electrics - especially around the company of you watering your girls!

Hit me up if you ever have any questions. If I can't help I will try direct you to someone who could potentially help you out.

Be safe

What SC said is true, actually it’s the first time I’ve seen that happen. I think if both sides had a do over they would handle it differently. Imo. CL

 

[Azimuth]

Hey Long Time,

This is something I have studied. The name of the hormone is phytochrome, and it comes in two interrelated forms – Phytochrome Red (PR) and Phytochrome Far Red (PFR). It's not UV light which "resets" the hormone – it's a specific wavelength of red light.

Here are my notes on the subject – this is objective truth, by the way, not opinion... this is the science:

"Cannabis plants are referred to as long night or short day plants, because they require a long period of darkness to trigger the hormones that tell the plant to switch from vegetative growth to flowering. These light receptors are color pigments in the leaves called Phytochrome Red (PR) and Phytochrome Far Red (PFR). These pigments get their names from the types of light they absorb. PR absorbs red light between 660 and 760 nm and PFR absorbs far red light between 760 and 800 nm. These two pigments chemically react to the light, and trigger the plant to flower or not.​

​

This is where it gets a little confusing.​

​

In cannabis plants, the normal presence of PFR switches off the flowering signal. The level of PFR is what you can manipulate by adjusting the photoperiod [i.e. day length, and hence night length]. PFR is quickly produced when plants are exposed to light that contains far red wavelengths. When there is light, the PFR and PR maintain a balance. When the sun goes down or the lights go out, the darkness gradually switches the PFR to PR."​

​

For indoor growers, flipping your light schedule is how you induce flowering, because you are making the night length 12 hours. (Note 12 hours is used just to be on the safe side, even though most cannabis will flower when night length is 10.5 hours.) When night length is 12 hours, for a few nights in a row, PFR gets converted to PR, and the plants begin to flower.

Outdoor growers depend on the sun for growing their plants, so there is no "flip" in the indoor growing sense. But outdoor growers can use night interruption lighting – which is what I do – to convert the PR back to PFR. The lights go on in my veg house automatically at 12 midnight, 2 am, and 4 am, for a few minutes each time. I use inexpensive daylight spectrum LED bulbs, 13 watt. The light emitted contains the red wavelengths necessary to convert PR to PFR. I can then "flip" by moving my plants to the flower house, where there is no night interruption lighting.

Here's a good article on the subject:

Cannabis Photoperiod Hacks to Increase Your Yields — Elevated Botanist

A lot of growers are leaving money on the table due to a failure of imagination. The idea that cannabis should always veg at eighteen hours of light and flower at twelve is wrong. Cannabis plants do not require total darkness to flower and trivial light leaks will not cause plants to “hermi” For th

www.elevatedbotanist.com

Wow, great article @cbdhemp808 ! Bookmarked.

 

[Long Time Coming]

@cbdhemp808 Thank you for that!!!

 

[bluter]

not entirely true - plants can and will show gender without a flip.

it's somewhat possible to determine sex from the preflowers before flip, but it is by no means a 100% way of identifying. some strains won't be possible to determine early.

after flip there is no question, which is why it used to be standard procedure to flip plants early to determine sex, then re-vegging before harvest. it was super common practice in the 70s-80s before the advent of femmed seed.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Hey bluter,

it's somewhat possible to determine sex from the preflowers before flip, but it is by no means a 100% way of identifying. some strains won't be possible to determine early.

after flip there is no question, which is why it used to be standard procedure to flip plants early to determine sex, then re-vegging before harvest. it was super common practice in the 70s-80s before the advent of femmed seed.

This is news to me. If it's true, I'd like to understand it better. First, let's define "flip" as meaning that the plants have gone into the flowering stage – there are different ways for that to happen, depending on if it's an indoor or outdoor grow. And, let's also clarify that we're talking about photoperiod plants, not autoflowers. And, we're talking about regular seed – males and females. (Let's assume no hermies.)

So, prior to flip, the method is to look at the upper nodes, after 4-6 weeks (?) in veg, and there you'll find one or two bracts (per node) with stigmas (hairs) coming out. These are the females. The males may take a bit longer to show (?), and you'll see little nubs, but not bracts, and no stigmas. If you don't see the bracts and stigmas, then the plant is a male; however, you might need to wait longer until the male parts are visible, also at the nodes.

From what I know, these bracts (and stigmas) that show on the upper nodes prior to flip (or after flip) are known as pre-flowers. I.e. female pre-flowers.

So, the question in my mind is, do pre-flowers always form prior to flip? I was under the impression the answer is always yes – provided that the flip did not occur prior to the plants becoming mature enough to indicate sex.

Are you saying that some strains just don't present bracts and stigmas at all, prior to flip? Or, are you saying that some strains just don't produce pre-flowers, and you have to wait for the true flowers to start forming?

Consider my Denver, Colorado example:

If you were in Denver, Colorado, and started growing an outdoor garden of indica plants [regular seed], on May 1, then by June 15 (let's say) the plants would have indicated their gender [showing pre-flowers]. The photoperiod (day length) on June 15 in Denver is about 14.87 hours, and the night length about 9.12 hours. The plants have matured and shown their gender, but the night length is not sufficient to induce flowering. That will happen around mid August when night length reaches 10.5 hours.

It's hard for me to believe that some strains would not indicate gender by "June 15" in this scenario.