Far Red Question

[Buds Buddy]

Hi all, After every grow I do some sort of an upgrade. This time I'm looking to add "Far Red" 730-760 nm". I watched some Bruce Bugby videos on it; & he says to add 10% Far Red to your White LED's. Well I'm using a Medic Grow Fold 8 (720 watt) 8 bar LED. So when he says add 10% Far Red is he referring to wattage (10% of 720 watts = 72 watts of Far Red) ? I'm unsure of what he's saying to add the 10% to. I'll be adding these to a 4x8 tent (but only using 4x4 of it. I was going to add 4 Floodlight type HLG Far Red (40 watt) bulbs (1 in each corner of a 4x4 area), but it may be too much. If I only need 72 watts I could buy 2 of the 45" strips & figure out a way to mount them on the Fold 8 (Maybe some magnetic strips), but with a separate driver. What do you guys think is the better way to go ?
Bulbs or strips ?
10% of what for Far Red ?
These are my questions. Any help is very much appreciated. Thank You All !

 

[Buds Buddy]

I guess not many of the growers here do this ? Had a lot of views.... but no replies. I did have one person who builds lights tell me that about 72 watts would be the correct amount of Far Red 730 nm. My light according to the add only has White & Deep Red 660 nm. So to get "The Emerson Effect" & run 14/10 I have to add the Far Red.

 

[stinker]

I had a member tell me he was going to add far red in an outdoor grow at sunset to induce early flowering. I never saw anything more about it.

 

[bobrown14]

I run far red been doing it since 2016 or so. I have 12 COBs @100W/cob 4 of them have far red @1750K. Have no idea what that is in percent tho. I run 11.5 \ 12.5 lighting in flower.

If it was me I'd prolly go with a strip not the floods put em on a separate timer and let them run 15 minutes or so after lights out and run them same as your other lighting just turn off later.

 

[Roy Growin]

Waaay overthinking for me - I just bung 'em in some coco and put a light on top, it'll be whatever it is
Sorry to be not more useful

 

[bluter]

i have far red strips but have never added them to the flower rig.
i do run both deep blue and a far red strip burple on my veg rig. works excellent. just never got around to adding it in to the flower rig.

if you add the strips, run them on a separate timer as a ramp up/down morning/evening light. it mimics dawn and sunset and will put your red exposure at the times it would naturally occur.

you can use the strips to extend your total day time hrs by running them alone before and after the main rig runs. i overlap the lights, so there is no dark gap.

you won't even need the 72w if your main rig is decent. you're just adding supplemental.

 

[bluter]

Bulbs or strips ?
10% of what for Far Red ?
These are my questions. Any help is very much appreciated. Thank You All !

should have added

for builders the 10% would refer to the number of emitters in a balanced "full spec" rig. not the wattage.

 

[Buds Buddy]

I can't really say how my light is yet. My current 10-Bar 800 watt does pretty well. But I'll be using a "Medic Grow Fold 8" 720 watt on this grow that I'll be adding Far Red to. When I look at the PPFD charts for my light I see plenty of Deep Red 660 nm but -0- for Far Red 730 nm. So I'm only after the far red. I found some 40 watt 45" long Far Red Strips with heat sink & Driver for $155 each that seem promising. I was told that was a pretty high price though so I'm still looking. Got about 60 days till I need it anyway. Just like to buy it & have it up when the time comes in advance. I was thinking 2 of these for a 4x4 area. I'll keep looking for a week or 2 & if I can find something similar to the 45" strips for cheaper.... then great. If not, I'll buy the ones I was checking out.

 

[Buds Buddy]

i have far red strips but have never added them to the flower rig.
i do run both deep blue and a far red strip burple on my veg rig. works excellent. just never got around to adding it in to the flower rig.

if you add the strips, run them on a separate timer as a ramp up/down morning/evening light. it mimics dawn and sunset and will put your red exposure at the times it would naturally occur.

you can use the strips to extend your total day time hrs by running them alone before and after the main rig runs. i overlap the lights, so there is no dark gap.

you won't even need the 72w if your main rig is decent. you're just adding supplemental.

The extended hour thing is what I'm actually after. 13/11 or 14/10. I'm going to have to watch that Bugby video again. I remember him saying to run the Far Red for 15-20 minutes after lights out. But I don't recall him saying to run them prior to lights on. Going to check that out for sure.
From what I got from the video, Far Red 15 min. before lights on would also stay on with your main light hours too & then 15 minutes after lights out for a true Emerson Effect.
I'm actually just trying to put the plants in sleep mode faster to do their thing. Also increasing light hours & photosynthesis. I can't explain it the way Bugby does... but it sounds good.... lol.

 

[bluter]

The extended hour thing is what I'm actually after. 13/11 or 14/10. I'm going to have to watch that Bugby video again. I remember him saying to run the Far Red for 15-20 minutes after lights out. But I don't recall him saying to run them prior to lights on. Going to check that out for sure.
From what I got from the video, Far Red 15 min. before lights on would also stay on with your main light hours too & then 15 minutes after lights out for a true Emerson Effect.
I'm actually just trying to put the plants in sleep mode faster to do their thing. Also increasing light hours & photosynthesis. I can't explain it the way Bugby does... but it sounds good.... lol.

how long you run them for is dependent on your main rig. it has to have the ppfd for the plants to get enough during the period your main rig runs. easiest way to tell is if your plants get the droopys toward the end of daylight hours before the main rig shuts off.

it is beneficial to run the supplementals at both ends of the day cycle. it's true plants in flower tend to react more to the end of day over the beginning, but the light quality you are adding is most present at dawn and sunset, for this reason i always toss them on both ends.

i also run a diminishing schedule in flower. day/night - 12/12 - 11/13 - 10/14. if running the reds, it would be included at either end, for about 1/2hr to 45min before/after the main rig runs. i generally program them to run for an hour total and just let the main rig splash over them so there is no dark gap.

they are included as part of total number of hours in the day cycle. they don't cut in to any of the dark time.

i built a number of rigs for folk and this is exactly how they get run. most folk change things a little bit to suit individual preferences, but that is the starting point we recommended and most still use it.


i'm just running 5050 emitters i pulled off of amazon, and soldered them in myself. super easy and pennies on the dollar. 5050's were about the best you could get at the time, there are better emitters in a similar package now. there are 72 emitters on each rail. the supplier was the same as i normally sourced through digi-key or mouser. the river was simply cheaper. keep that in mind if you go that route.

they draw nothing, i run 3 rails off a 3a phone charger type driver. i matched the driver to the draw of the rails, it just worked out to about 1a per rail. i could run 4 but i overdrive them a touch. super easy install. the 72w is overkill for what you are looking for.


i really have to get the rails added on my flower rig. mine never got done as i was constantly building at the time. a bit like a mechanic whose car is never fixed.

 

[Mlburk1]

I do it with one of those pucks and stay with 12 /12 but am finishing 10 to 15 days earlier. 2 x 4 tent budget series 3 250. Three pucks near red , far red , and UV . This is day 49of flower and went dark last night for 36 hours

 

[bluter]

I do it with one of those pucks and stay with 12 /12 but am finishing 10 to 15 days earlier. 2 x 4 tent budget series 3 250. Three pucks near red , far red , and UV . This is day 49of flower and went dark last night for 36 hours

beauty.

if you run something as strong as those pucks you can run them with the main lights too.

 

[MAK1]

Hey Buds.
I think that video is pretty old and LED's have come along way since blurpple. I looked online at your light, not any technical data available. They designed it for Sosen to build. It says it is "full spectrum", this does not mean there is any far-red diodes in that fixture. The term "full spectrum" is marketing nothing more. There may already be 10% far-red IDK. If it is a newer light there probably is enough there already. For the price of that fixture there should be a very nice spectral quality with the red you want. More won't necessarily help. What diodes are they using? How many of what frequency? What does your light spectrum (output) look like? Maybe you got some data sheet in the box.

Bulbs or strips? Lamps or COB's are gaining popularity. I think COB's are just too cool but I am not well versed on COB's. (It may be my next upgrade) I am not sure how the focal aspect of different types of COB's will work for your set up. I understand the newer diodes can be focused or more diffuse.

Someone else raised a separate issue related to far-red. The addition of far-red light at sunset helps put the plants to sleep faster, apparently it takes hours after lights out for the plants to shutdown. The plants go to rest sooner so, they can be woken sooner.
I am not familiar with adding red light at sunup. Maybe a blue in morning.
An interesting comparison: People go to sleep better if we filter out blue light before bedtime. Do animals sleep better if we added red lights before lights out? People wake up better with blue lights added. Do plants also wake faster if given a 15 minute blast of blue lights? It's 2021, why can't I wear white after Labor Day?

 

[Mlburk1]

Yep ! I’ll get a pic in a few. The pucks aren’t that big or expensive. 2 1/2” x2 1/2”

 

[Buds Buddy]

Hey Buds.
I think that video is pretty old and LED's have come along way since blurpple. I looked online at your light, not any technical data available. They designed it for Sosen to build. It says it is "full spectrum", this does not mean there is any far-red diodes in that fixture. The term "full spectrum" is marketing nothing more. There may already be 10% far-red IDK. If it is a newer light there probably is enough there already. For the price of that fixture there should be a very nice spectral quality with the red you want. More won't necessarily help. What diodes are they using? How many of what frequency? What does your light spectrum (output) look like? Maybe you got some data sheet in the box.

Bulbs or strips? Lamps or COB's are gaining popularity. I think COB's are just too cool but I am not well versed on COB's. (It may be my next upgrade) I am not sure how the focal aspect of different types of COB's will work for your set up. I understand the newer diodes can be focused or more diffuse.

Someone else raised a separate issue related to far-red. The addition of far-red light at sunset helps put the plants to sleep faster, apparently it takes hours after lights out for the plants to shutdown. The plants go to rest sooner so, they can be woken sooner.
I am not familiar with adding red light at sunup. Maybe a blue in morning.
An interesting comparison: People go to sleep better if we filter out blue light before bedtime. Do animals sleep better if we added red lights before lights out? People wake up better with blue lights added. Do plants also wake faster if given a 15 minute blast of blue lights? It's 2021, why can't I wear white after Labor Day?

Don't know where I seen the info on the light. Can't find it now. Hopefully there's info in the box when it gets here.
It's on it's way. But in Alaska at the moment.

 

[Mlburk1]

Sorry for darkness but 36 hrs dark for girl. UV / far red / near red

 

[Buds Buddy]

***These are the lights I'm considering buying.***​

Premium Quality Research Grade FGI 730 NM Far Red LED Lightbar. 30 Watt. 45 inches Long. Commercial Grade Supplemental Far Red Booster.​

• This Listing is for ONE Far Red LED
• Supplemental Far Red Bloom Flower Enhancer
• 30 Watts of Dedicated 730NM Energy
• Covers a 2' x 4' area in bloom
• Water resistant, passively cooled. 110V plug included

Far Red Spectrum Improves Plant Morphology​

Studies By Dr Robert Emerson confirmed Far Reds importance to growth rates.​

Dr. Robert Emerson, who taught at the University of Illinois, discovered that light on the far end of the spectrum, infrared light, boosted photosynthesis when combined with other wavelengths. Emerson’s primary observations included: There are two chemical procedures that contribute to photosynthesis. These processes are hastened, and are more efficient, when the plant is exposed to far-red and infrared light.
The plant protein phytochrome absorbs red, far-red and infrared wavelengths; this protein is responsible for regulating flowering.

Further Studies by Drs Zhen and Van Iersel​

Zhen and Van Iersel (2017) showed that adding 110 µmols of far-red light (peak wavelength: 735 nm) to varying PPFDs of “warm-white” or blue-red irradiation increased the net photosynthetic rates with diminishing increases at higher PPFDs. Far-red + blue-red light and far red + “warm-white” light both increased the net photosynthetic rate to PPFD ratios by 41%.

Up to 120 umols ePPFD at 18"​

This bar produces plenty of Far Red supplemental energy for your plants. Using dedicated IR sensors we measure the increase at 18" from the LEDs at 120 additional umols. We call this ePPFD because typical PAR measurement ends at 700nm. Our Far Red Bar adds up to 120 umols to any standard PAR measurement. Placing the light closer will increase ePPFD (however will also decrease the coverage area).

Features​

• 30 Watts of power draw
• 110-277V
• Pre wired with 8' cord and 110V plug
• Mounting clips included
• 44.88”x 2.24”x 1.53”
• IP65 water resistant with sealed crystal glass diode cover
• 102.3BTU
• 4.4 lbs.

Coverage recommendations: Full Cycle

Our testing together with dozens of earlier buyers of the FGI 730NM Far Red Lightbar, have shown that the most effective coverage area for full flower cycle use is 4' x 2' at 12" to 36".

Our far red lightbar fits neatly inside our Uniformity Pro 640 and Uniformity Pro Flex full spectrum LED's, as it will with most multi-bar style LEDs. Two per 4x4 provides the infrared punch plants need in flower.

Our studies further concluded that the far red energy can be used throughout the entire 12 hour cycle. We recommend that initially the bars are 36" away from transitioning veg plants. And are left on for the full day. As the plants finish stretching the bars can be as close as 12" for most hardy strains. However some strains which exhibit more light sensitivity should be monitored for stress at this intensity.

Coverage recommendations: Emerson Effect

Test grows using our far red lightbar are ongoing as it relates to solely managing the "Emerson Effect". Theoretically when plants are exposed to far red energy at the end of the 12 hour light cycle, will reduce transpiration rates faster than plants that are not exposed to far red energy. With this in mind the far red lightbar can be mounted further away from the plants than the full cycle recommendation above. At this stage of our research we are relying on end users like yourself to help us dial in appropriate coverage area and light hanging distances from the canopy. Our current believe is that one lightbar managing to the Emerson Effect can cover 6' x 3' of canopy.

As for the number of minutes/hours of lights-on time we are less confident in a recommendation at this time. Anecdotal evidence from dozens of growers suggest that 20 minutes of dedicated far red energy after the primary full spectrum LEDs are turned off may allows growers to then turn their primary lights on for 13 hours without risk of re-veg or hermaphroditical transitions. Again, in theory, the additional hour of high intensity full spectrum energy will improve yields and possibly also potency results. At the same time, we are unable to make a specific claim or representation as this type of science is less than complete. Please help us to further our research by letting us know what you observe in your plants.

Happy Growing!

 

[Buds Buddy]

***Found this info on the Fold 8 so far.***

Par Test:



Many brands try to lower the cost by scrimping on diodes. However, the Medic Grow Fold 8 uses a high quantity of name brand diodes. There is a total of 2,800 Samsung LM301Z+ diodes. In addition, there are 64 Osram 660 nanometer diodes. I inspected the diodes to ensure that they are authentic. The diodes check out. They do not help us solve the mystery about why this fixture is so affordable.

The driver may be a different story. The driver is housed within the center chassis of the fixture. It is not possible to remove it or even inspect it without disassembling the fixture. The representative explained that the driver was specially designed for this fixture and manufactured by Sosen. The driver performed well during my testing. If there were serious issues, it would get hot and lead to poor system efficiency. It did not get hot and the system was very efficient.

.

Specifications:

Model	FOLD-8
Spectrum	V1 Full Spectrum
PPF(light output)	2160 μmol/s
Wattage	760 Watt
Efficacy	2.7 μmol/J @277 AC
Coverage	4x4 Feet; 5x5 Feet;
Fixture & Dimensions	46.46"L x 44.88 W
AC Input Voltage	120-277V AC,347-480V AC,50/60Hz
Max Operating Temperature	95°F / 35°C
Mounting Height	≥ 6” (15.2cm) Above Canopy
Thermal Management	Passive
Dimming	0-10V
Weight	26.46lbs/12kg
Warranty	3 Year Warranty

Last edited: Mar 19, 2021

 

[Emilya Green]

Here is the spectrum on the strip that I bought... It looks like a small Meanwell driver will run it just fine.

 

[bobrown14]

This ^^^ See the double spike thats your far red and red spectrum. As indicated by the study can run them start to finish veg and flower. \\

Plants get more red spectrum later in the season when flowering starts but its beneficial all thru the grow.

Grow season more red in spring and fall - which helps with growth and maturity (flowers).

This is outdoors so we try to mimic that as much as we can.

@Emilya what red lamp is that you're running??? Linky???