Emmie's Organic Garden Using Advanced Lighting Techniques

[SweetSue]

An additional benefit to the GeoPots is the 7 and 10 gallon sizes fit quite nicely into a milk crate, due to their square bottom. This makes them easier to move around without disturbing the soil at all and also allows for increased depth. Graytail figured out he was able to get a few more gallons into his. I know I got more into mine.

They make using a SWICK more challenging, but still doable. It's going to be how I do all of my pots this grow.

There's a world of difference between GeoPots and everyone else. If you can afford them, choose the GeoPots. The quality is stunning. Emmie, the Velcro-sided ones rock!

Your trichome shots are to die for. Good to see you wrapping this one up. I'll be interested to see how the darkness effects the plant.

 

[SweetSue]

It does become a commitment! And Shig... would love to go to 10's, but I just don't think I have the room in a 4x4 for 6 10 gallon bags, nor do I want to veg for long enough to justify them. I also have not made enough super soil for a run that large. 7 seemed a good compromise this time, I bought a 10 pack of 7 gal smart pots.

Using crates, as I mentioned, you could have gone with 10 gallon GeoPots with no increase in footprint. Worth remembering the next time you decide to stock up. Of course you mentioned a reluctance to veg longer, so this insight might be for some random reader of the journal.

 

[SlowToke]

An additional benefit to the GeoPots is the 7 and 10 gallon sizes fit quite nicely into a milk crate, due to their square bottom. This makes them easier to move around without disturbing the soil at all and also allows for increased depth. Graytail figured out he was able to get a few more gallons into his. I know I got more into mine.

They make using a SWICK more challenging, but still doable. It's going to be how I do all of my pots this grow.

There's a world of difference between GeoPots and everyone else. If you can afford them, choose the GeoPots. The quality is stunning. Emmie, the Velcro-sided ones rock!

Your trichome shots are to die for. Good to see you wrapping this one up. I'll be interested to see how the darkness effects the plant.

Sue, do the geopots allow drench watering as well as regular nursery pots? Not that it would be much of an issue for the large pots you are talking about here, but for my next grow I am thinking about using some type of smaller 1-gallon of so smart pot for germination/vegging. Then just placing that pot in a larger pot for flowering. This would ease the stress of up potting on the plant, right? I just wonder how well the pots absorb and drain water when drench watering. Sorry for the slight hijack, Emmie!

 

[Major PITA]

Sue, do the geopots allow drench watering as well as regular nursery pots? Not that it would be much of an issue for the large pots you are talking about here, but for my next grow I am thinking about using some type of smaller 1-gallon of so smart pot for germination/vegging. Then just placing that pot in a larger pot for flowering. This would ease the stress of up potting on the plant, right? I just wonder how well the pots absorb and drain water when drench watering. Sorry for the slight hijack, Emmie!

I have limited experience with softpots but found them to work slowly for dunking. The water penetrates so you can dunk them and drain, but it happens much more slowly than with plastic pots. I do not think they drain nearly as well - at least not in the amount of time I have to tip them and babysit them.

Even though roots will grow through the pots, I would not place a softpot in a larger pot. The roots will be restricted a lot. The difference in the rootball inside a softpot and outside is profound. I find knocking a plant out of a 1 gal pot to be virtually a non-stress event. Much less of an impact on the plant than making it push through heavy fabric to get the nutes it wants.

 

[earejay]

Hi earejay, glad that you have enjoyed it.

I almost got involved with LEDs early on, but missed my chance. Considering that LED has a 15 year lifespan, it is my belief that if I got into it now, I would be wasting my money, because as newer and better lights came out, I would end up not getting full use out of my LEDs.
I am currently running old school with new school digital ballast and high tech HID superbulbs, and am patiently waiting for the next big thing. Just today I was looking at the new ceramic metal halide bulbs, using half the energy that a regular bulb would use. Right out there on the fringe is the new plasma bulb technology too, a very exciting tech using very little power, generating very little heat and putting out a massive amount of light. Currently those systems are running about $4k, but I am confident that before my new LED array was out of warranty, the new plasma tech will be viable. Already the ceramic systems are comparable, if you discount the fact that the new lights and ballasts are not compatable with anything else out there, and factor in half the energy cost.
For veg, I really like my T5HO Purple Agromax Pur Par bulbs.... for a florescent they cant be beat, and I would compare 200w of these to a 400w MH any day of the week. There are a lot of good light systems out there though, just not sure I would spend the extra money on LED at this point in the technology. I think for long term veg, I would seriously consider this new ceramic MH system, with the 1/2 energy cost and 8000 hour bulb life.
Regarding tents, I have 3 of them. I use a 4x4 for flowering, I have a 2x4 for veg, and I have a 1x2.5 for specialized drying and breeding projects (usually vacant)

Thanks Emmie!! You've given me some good food for thought. I was thinking going LED to help conserve energy and for the perceived growth benefits but after reading your post and seeing your results I might have to rethink it. It's just SO much to consider when you are starting out and want to do well but not spend unnecessary money. Like I said I'm going slow and will continue to research and communicate with others such as yourself. Thanks again!!!

 

[Light Addict]

I'm loving the talk about the pots, I'll pass all this input onto the smart pot lot @spannabis
AK looks grand

 

[SweetSue]

Sue, do the geopots allow drench watering as well as regular nursery pots? Not that it would be much of an issue for the large pots you are talking about here, but for my next grow I am thinking about using some type of smaller 1-gallon of so smart pot for germination/vegging. Then just placing that pot in a larger pot for flowering. This would ease the stress of up potting on the plant, right? I just wonder how well the pots absorb and drain water when drench watering. Sorry for the slight hijack, Emmie!

Major, you had problems with the fabric pots? Were you using GeoPots? I had no such problems with mine, and I used a combination of GeoPots and homemade ones using felt from the local craft store. I found that the GeoPots performed much better than my homemade, but I had great success with soaking/drenching using both styles of fabric. My personal practice was to soak for about 5 minutes and then gently dip and pour over the surface until I had no more being absorbed. This allows for thorough saturation from both directions.

As far as planting directly into the finish pots, I highly recommend you do this. Sorry Major, but HealingKronic proved this to be the most effective method. He's done it both ways and found the yield improved with keeping the one gallon intact and simply dropping it into the larger pot. It's the way I intend to do with every plant I grow that isn't being planted into a no-till (I'll be running plants in Doc Bud's HB kit soil as well). My no-till plants go straight into the finish pots after germination in solos.

I don't think Emmie minds this discussion here, do you Em?

 

[SweetSue]

Thanks Emmie!! You've given me some good food for thought. I was thinking going LED to help conserve energy and for the perceived growth benefits but after reading your post and seeing your results I might have to rethink it. It's just SO much to consider when you are starting out and want to do well but not spend unnecessary money. Like I said I'm going slow and will continue to research and communicate with others such as yourself. Thanks again!!!

earejay, in your search for understanding of LEDs I'd point you in the direction of Icemud. His passion is lighting technology, and in my opinion there isn't a more informed member on site to answer your continuing questions.

Emmie, your own thoughts were provocative. Much is changing in lighting, faster than we can keep up it often seems. When I purchased my last two panels I went with smaller Mars-Hydro units that were being discontinued and I got at a steal. That made them the best bang for my buck, and I'd have missed out on it had not Graytail known I was sniffing around and alerted me to the sale he'd stumbled upon. Keeping your ear to the ground pays off every now and then.

 

[Emilya Green]

I don't think Emmie minds this discussion here, do you Em?

don't mind a bit Sue... discussion is best had where and when it occurs

 

[Major PITA]

Major, you had problems with the fabric pots? Were you using GeoPots? I had no such problems with mine, and I used a combination of GeoPots and homemade ones using felt from the local craft store. I found that the GeoPots performed much better than my homemade, but I had great success with soaking/drenching using both styles of fabric. My personal practice was to soak for about 5 minutes and then gently dip and pour over the surface until I had no more being absorbed. This allows for thorough saturation from both directions.

As far as planting directly into the finish pots, I highly recommend you do this. Sorry Major, but HealingKronic proved this to be the most effective method. He's done it both ways and found the yield improved with keeping the one gallon intact and simply dropping it into the larger pot. It's the way I intend to do with every plant I grow that isn't being planted into a no-till (I'll be running plants in Doc Bud's HB kit soil as well). My no-till plants go straight into the finish pots after germination in solos.

I don't think Emmie minds this discussion here, do you Em?

No worries, Sue!
I wouldn't say I had a problem with softpots (they were Smartpots not Geopots). They worked fine for me. I still have them and use them. My only issue was that it takes longer to soak and drain them well. Not a big deal. Just not as quick and easy as hard pots when it comes to draining. More of the perched water table remains based on the weight of the pots after watering and draining.
I do disagree about leaving the plant in the pot and burying them in a larger pot. I can see no logical reason why it would increase yield but I'm willing to hear why it is beneficial. When I did this, the rootball continued to grow inside the smartpot. It grew through the fabric but still the roots that developed on the outside were nothing compared to the roots inside, or the roots of a plant that was removed from the softpot. I still believe the 1-4 days it takes for a plant to hook up with new soil after transplant is way quicker and more efficient than the time it takes a plant to grow the same amount of roots through the pot. I recommend not doing it but if HC has done a fair comparison several times, I'm open to learning why a root barrier helps grow better buds.

 

[Emilya Green]

Another 3.8 oz jarred... story on this later. Our one last superplant is hanging... projections on her are 3.2 oz for a grand total of 14.2 oz from 4 plants. This is significantly more yield than I normally get with one 600w bulb. Running the 600w MH for 3 hours a night has definitely made a difference.

Busy day at work today... I will catch everyone up on the 48 darkness results as soon as I can.

 

[Radogast]

I'm loving the talk about the pots, I'll pass all this input onto the smart pot lot @spannabis
AK looks grand

I was at an indoor grow expo this summer and a lady at the Geopot booth was asking the vendor how they compared to the Smartpots at another booth. The Geopot vendor was being all political and saying "I can't speak about their pots." I stepped in with "I like Geopots so much better because ...."

The vendor was pleased, and I walked away with a free 5-gallon Geopot.

 

[SweetSue]

No worries, Sue!
I wouldn't say I had a problem with softpots (they were Smartpots not Geopots). They worked fine for me. I still have them and use them. My only issue was that it takes longer to soak and drain them well. Not a big deal. Just not as quick and easy as hard pots when it comes to draining. More of the perched water table remains based on the weight of the pots after watering and draining.
I do disagree about leaving the plant in the pot and burying them in a larger pot. I can see no logical reason why it would increase yield but I'm willing to hear why it is beneficial. When I did this, the rootball continued to grow inside the smartpot. It grew through the fabric but still the roots that developed on the outside were nothing compared to the roots inside, or the roots of a plant that was removed from the softpot. I still believe the 1-4 days it takes for a plant to hook up with new soil after transplant is way quicker and more efficient than the time it takes a plant to grow the same amount of roots through the pot. I recommend not doing it but if HC has done a fair comparison several times, I'm open to learning why a root barrier helps grow better buds.

I don't know if he's done multiple comparisons. I do know this was what he'd switched to, and he grows some monster plants with this approach. I've been busy enough that I haven't checked with him in a while. I'll make it a point to track him down today and ask.

 

[Radogast]

Another 3.8 oz jarred... story on this later. Our one last superplant is hanging... projections on her are 3.2 oz for a grand total of 14.2 oz from 4 plants. This is significantly more yield than I normally get with one 600w bulb. Running the 600w MH for 3 hours a night has definitely made a difference.

Busy day at work today... I will catch everyone up on the 48 darkness results as soon as I can.

Congratulations!

I would agree that even 3.2 oz is much more than my "normal" 2.5 oz each for 4 plants under a 600W HPS. 14.2 oz as opposed to 10 oz is VERY significant.
What is your "normal" yield you are comparing?

 

[Emilya Green]

Congratulations!

I would agree that even 3.2 oz is much more than my "normal" 2.5 oz each for 4 plants under a 600W HPS. 14.2 oz as opposed to 10 oz is VERY significant.
What is your "normal" yield you are comparing?

About the same as you... 2 to 2.5 as an average. I also noticed that except for at the very bottom, every nug was a nug, only a scant amount of popcorn. Penetration with the high wattage dual source was almost complete. Also, every plant in the room was a producer, even those with a few problems. The weights were 3.2, 3.8, 3.8, and 3.4, and this for me is way above average for a run, even more so with just 4 plants. I am training the next batch to totally blow these numbers away too... just not sure what to do with the lights at the moment to prove something else to myself.

oh... and the seeded branches were taken away before weighing too... so if I had not done that, add another 10 or 20 grams to each.

 

[earejay]

earejay, in your search for understanding of LEDs I'd point you in the direction of Icemud. His passion is lighting technology, and in my opinion there isn't a more informed member on site to answer your continuing questions.

Emmie, your own thoughts were provocative. Much is changing in lighting, faster than we can keep up it often seems. When I purchased my last two panels I went with smaller Mars-Hydro units that were being discontinued and I got at a steal. That made them the best bang for my buck, and I'd have missed out on it had not Graytail known I was sniffing around and alerted me to the sale he'd stumbled upon. Keeping your ear to the ground pays off every now and then.

Thanks Sue!! I will seek him out and try to pick his brain. What are your opinion on the Mar's LED's?? I was researching them last nights and they seem to be pretty good. I am looking at growing from 4-6 plants per run. Thanks again!!

 

[Major PITA]

I don't know if he's done multiple comparisons. I do know this was what he'd switched to, and he grows some monster plants with this approach. I've been busy enough that I haven't checked with him in a while. I'll make it a point to track him down today and ask.

That is sweet of you, Sue.

Please don't put yourself out for me. I'm not inclined to do it without a lot of evidence. When things don't make sense to me, I usually have to learn the hard way. My concern is when we accept limited anecdotal evidence as proof of something. If someone could take 100 cuttings from a single mom and grow them under identical conditions except to change a single variable for half of them, that would interest me. Even then, the results might be very different for another strain or with some other change in variables.

Back in the 70's we played quite a bit with going dark for a couple of days before harvest and we tried stress of various types. None of it had a positive impact on yield or potency but I still see growers swearing by these kinds of things. I would never try to convince them not to do it but they probably won't make a believer out of me, either.

I wish these kind of experiments could be carried out on a large scale with scientific methods so we could all learn what works, what doesn't, and how much any difference is. Then we would know if it is worth the extra time, effort and expense. Until then, I try to stick with proven methods used for general gardening of heavy feeding annuals. On the other hand, I love to learn new tricks. Luckily, as legalization spreads, those kind of tests will happen. I'm betting we will see 50% THC and stable, predictable flavor profiles in the not too distant future.

 

[Radogast]

About the same as you... 2 to 2.5 as an average. I also noticed that except for at the very bottom, every nug was a nug, only a scant amount of popcorn. Penetration with the high wattage dual source was almost complete. Also, every plant in the room was a producer, even those with a few problems. The weights were 3.2, 3.8, 3.8, and 3.4, and this for me is way above average for a run, even more so with just 4 plants. I am training the next batch to totally blow these numbers away too... just not sure what to do with the lights at the moment to prove something else to myself.

oh... and the seeded branches were taken away before weighing too... so if I had not done that, add another 10 or 20 grams to each.

If you had to hazard a guess, what do you think would happen with a single 600W MH in a third hood hanging between the two 600W HPS?

I ask because my 22x24" hoods don't have the space for an extra bulb like the raptor 30x40" hoods.

I can't see myself spending $1000+ on 2 new hoods, bulbs and ballasts. Even with a 4 month return on investment. The expense is real, while the returned value of extra cannabis for a personal medical grow is virtual.


Would you care to speculate on whether supplementary LED lighting might perform similar to supplemental MH?

 

[Emilya Green]

If you had to hazard a guess, what do you think would happen with a single 600W MH in a third hood hanging between the two 600W HPS?

I ask because my 22x24" hoods don't have the space for an extra bulb like the raptor 30x40" hoods.

I can't see myself spending $1000+ on 2 new hoods, bulbs and ballasts. Even with a 4 month return on investment. The expense is real, while the returned value of extra cannabis for a personal medical grow is virtual.


Would you care to speculate on whether supplementary LED lighting might perform similar to supplemental MH?

I think it would be better than not using them. Generally the rule when it comes to light, more is better. The point of my experiment here however was that this high wattage light does not have to be run full time. I am a staunch supporter of multi source lighting in our tents. Multi-source, the wider you can make it, eliminates shadows, and that increases penetration, no matter the wattage. Running the highest wattage for a short time, simulating NOON so the plants can understand what is happening, is very effective, and as I suspected, almost as good as running high wattage full time.

 

[Emilya Green]

OK, finally I am able to sit here for a bit and tell you the story about 48 hours of darkness. I definitely see an effect, just not sure I see anything magical about it.

First of all, the tall plant, the one that I said was probably done a few days before putting them in the dark...
Turns out, that was correct. Her reaction to the dark... she died. Flat out, dead as a doornail, stems yellow and able to snap but not break. (lots of air movement in the flower tent remember) I went back after 2 days, found my extinguished plant and freaked... she immediately went into jars, upsetting the schedule of the entire day.

It turned out she wasn't so dry as that actually and soon the RH in the jar had risen to 85%, so she was put into a paper sack for 2 days. She is sitting on the desk with me right now, I have re-jarred her, and she is maintaining now at about 69%. I have cleaned her up (minions are lousy trimmers) and reweighed my nugs. This pot is drying out heavier than the normal -10% / 4 formula gives us... at the moment I have 4.6 oz in my jar from this one plant.

Conclusions regarding 48 hours of dark on this plant. Very effective. Killed her dead. Finished the grow. No questions, no hesitation... I like that.

Our star plant had a different reaction to the dark. I do notice more and thicker trichomes, but not dramatically more. I notice about 2 days more of amber creeping in, but not dramatically so. My impression is that the 2 days of dark were simply 2 more days of ripening... nothing magical, just a forced patience.

This last plant is still hanging, a day or two away from the paper sack stage yet. I suspect that she is going to dry heavy too, and I will have a final report on dry nug weight as I get it. She ended up being a very pretty plant too and I entered her in a couple of contests that I have no chance of winning, but I did want people to see her pretty bud structure. Organic works! I am going to do this some more!

Conclusions regarding the 48 hours of dark on this plant... simply 48 more hours of ripening. More side by side tests are needed to compare potency.

More reports coming soon on the final dry weights and smoke reports on the 3 different varieties. Already the tangerine dream and green crack have been cured a little bit, and no longer choke you with green when you try to smoke them. They have not yet reached their best however, that will be another couple of weeks away. As each reach this point, I will give an assessment as we wrap this log up. Thank you everyone for following along so far, it has been a joy to have you in my garden.

Be well everyone,
Emily