Does it make any economical or rational sense to veg for a month before flowering?

[aphrodisia]

Cool thread, this one actually made me sit my tea down.
The top right plant is the one I would vote for. BUT..there are way too many variables in growing to definitively say that's correct. Give me a controlled experiment and then we'll talk turkey. The top right plant shows the classic "reaching for the sky" we all see in plants that need more light. Buds seem to be less dense as well, more airy. Stalks are spindly but it's kind of hard to tell without a close up.
As far as the the topic, plants can only soak up or "use" a certain amount of light in a day. That being said, it's up to the grower to ensure that the plant has everything else it needs to efficiently process that light. Water, Co2, nutes, air and plant structure, roots, etc. If all of those things aren't jivin' with each other then you are not letting the plant live up to it's full potential.
If you can find the magic numbers to do that from seed on 12/12 then that's awesome! But the tell all is doing it in a controlled grow AND looking at (or smoking) bud quality, which we can't see from those pics. I might try just that too, that would be fun. But I would be like Bill Nye and see what exactly the differences would be. It's too bad he ain't a reefer ruffian..I'd take a toke with Bill fo sho. lol

Yep thats the one alright, but its still got like a few weeks to go and as for the buds appearing to be less dense they arent really, they just look like it because thats an Amnesia and its almost pure sativa and that would account for its more "stretchy" look, but its swelling nicely and packing on the trichomes. And as far as quality goes never had any complaints with my buds. Many people seem to forget that 12/12 light is the natural regimen for the equator where most sativas grow.

 

[Nunyabiz]

Yes you are right 12/12 from seed and vegging for only 30 days are more or less the same and this was the point I was trying to make so why waste an extra 6 hours of electricity a day for 4 weeks achieving the same results?
I average between 60 to 100 grams per plant using this method and that is good enough for me, I only grow for myself and it meets my requirements adequately plus I mostly finish my grows in ten weeks and I dont need to wait for one grow to finish before starting the next grow.
Like I wrote in my opening comment above some people like you like to grow trees and veg their plants for a long time before flowering I can understand that too, it all depends on your particular situation and if you have the patience to do that and of course if you are prepared to veg your plants for 2 months or more then you are definitely going to have more bud at the end of it.

If you're happy with the yield of 2-3oz per plant then you're doing the best method for your needs.
I need between 8 to 10 oz per plant.
Well, actually my wife and I don't "need" that much but I do like having quite a bit more on hand than our bare needs, largely because just in case one of us gets cancer I want the ability to make enough multistrain cannabis oil to use to fight the cancer.
Plus ya never know if a grow will just go to complete shit and I could end up spending 12 weeks or more and have it all go to hell with a mite plague or bud rot or whatever that just blows the whole grow to hell.
Then I would be relying on the yield of that one grow for at least 8 to 10 months before I could get another grow harvested.
So I do like having surplus and that also gives me the ability to have 3 to 6 cultivars in stock at all times and the best buds set aside and cured for a year or more.
This current grow I vegged for 6 weeks and my guesstimate for yield is looking like no less than 20 oz and maybe 26+ oz.
Then I am going to reamend the soil and let them cook a couple weeks to decompose some of the old roots and start 3 autoflowers for a quick 10 week turn around.
IF all 3 plants grow properly, which is probably unlikely as I usually don't have too good of luck with autoflowers but if they do then I should get at least a pound in that 10 weeks.

After that I'll probably just grow a little cover crop in my pots and reamend and let them cook for a few months because I'll probably be sitting on 3 pounds of bud so won't be in any hurry to start anything else until winter.
So electricity wise it should all work out about the same cost per oz.

 

[aphrodisia]

If you're happy with the yield of 2-3oz per plant then you're doing the best method for your needs.
I need between 8 to 10 oz per plant.
Well, actually my wife and I don't "need" that much but I do like having quite a bit more on hand than our bare needs, largely because just in case one of us gets cancer I want the ability to make enough multistrain cannabis oil to use to fight the cancer.
Plus ya never know if a grow will just go to complete shit and I could end up spending 12 weeks or more and have it all go to hell with a mite plague or bud rot or whatever that just blows the whole grow to hell.
Then I would be relying on the yield of that one grow for at least 8 to 10 months before I could get another grow harvested.
So I do like having surplus and that also gives me the ability to have 3 to 6 cultivars in stock at all times and the best buds set aside and cured for a year or more.
This current grow I vegged for 6 weeks and my guesstimate for yield is looking like no less than 20 oz and maybe 26+ oz.
Then I am going to reamend the soil and let them cook a couple weeks to decompose some of the old roots and start 3 autoflowers for a quick 10 week turn around.
IF all 3 plants grow properly, which is probably unlikely as I usually don't have too good of luck with autoflowers but if they do then I should get at least a pound in that 10 weeks.

After that I'll probably just grow a little cover crop in my pots and reamend and let them cook for a few months because I'll probably be sitting on 3 pounds of bud so won't be in any hurry to start anything else until winter.
So electricity wise it should all work out about the same cost per oz.

"This current grow I vegged for 6 weeks and my guesstimate for yield is looking like no less than 20 oz and maybe 26+ oz"

20 to 26 oz in a 5x2 space after vegging 2 plants for 6 weeks is damn good going, what lights do you use?
Thats the beauty of the system I use I can run a perpetual if I so want and have done so in the past, just start off new plants as you are about to harvest one as there is no need to wait for your old grow to finish before begining a new one, but I got more bud than I know what to do with so I no longer do that and just do one off grows now.

 

[Dubya Kush]

You right! But aren't all of those plants the same strain in that pic? If they're not, then you're comparing apples to oranges. And if they are, that one is definitely different. I've even grown hybrid seed from the same breeder and the same lot, side by side. Some have leaned sativa-like and other indica-like..so who knows. They look great, I'm not knocking you at all my friend. Clearly, you've found a happy place for your plants and that's awesome. I grow mine "low n slow" as I call it.

 

[aphrodisia]

You right! But aren't all of those plants the same strain in that pic? If they're not, then you're comparing apples to oranges. And if they are, that one is definitely different. I've even grown hybrid seed from the same breeder and the same lot, side by side. Some have leaned sativa-like and other indica-like..so who knows. They look great, I'm not knocking you at all my friend. Clearly, you've found a happy place for your plants and that's awesome. I grow mine "low n slow" as I call it.

Variety is the spice of life they say, no monoculture in my tent they are all different strains mate.

 

[Nunyabiz]

"This current grow I vegged for 6 weeks and my guesstimate for yield is looking like no less than 20 oz and maybe 26+ oz"

20 to 26 oz in a 5x2 space after vegging 2 plants for 6 weeks is damn good going, what lights do you use?
Thats the beauty of the system I use I can run a perpetual if I so want and have done so in the past, just start off new plants as you are about to harvest one as there is no need to wait for your old grow to finish before begining a new one, but I got more bud than I know what to do with so I no longer do that and just do one off grows now.

I am using a pair of home built lights.
They are 325w each but even in late veg I am only using a total of 480w both combined this grow.
Way too much light if I run them full blast but that's why I built them that way, running them dimmed way down they run cooler and more efficient and have plenty of headroom for when they start to dim down years from now.

 

[013]

Ditto on Dubya Kush (BTW’s welcome aboard!)

Looks great but to really test a theory you need to start with clones from the same mother otherwise you can’t account for differences in genetics / phenotypes. Seeds taken from the same pack or removed from a bud do not produce identical plants. So take clones and once rooted start one batch on 12/12 and the other group do 30 day veg or whatevs but run them with cookie cutter consistency - as in no topping unless the are all equally topped etc. I’m a country hick but technically speaking you would need dozens if not hundreds of plants in a comparison to get real data

Agree - not a slam at all, heck I love your testing & observations - just different strokes. I guessed the one in the middle cuz that’s how I roll..... yep - there is no middle plant!

 

[aphrodisia]

I am using a pair of home built lights.
They are 325w each but even in late veg I am only using a total of 480w both combined this grow.
Way too much light if I run them full blast but that's why I built them that way, running them dimmed way down they run cooler and more efficient and have plenty of headroom for when they start to dim down years from now.

Nice, so a total of 650w if run full blast. Do you ever run into problems with leaf yellowing and chlorisis of leaves once you begin flowering using Leds?

 

[aphrodisia]

Ditto on Dubya Kush (BTW’s welcome aboard!)

Looks great but to really test a theory you need to start with clones from the same mother otherwise you can’t account for differences in genetics / phenotypes. Seeds taken from the same pack or removed from a bud do not produce identical plants. So take clones and once rooted start one batch on 12/12 and the other group do 30 day veg or whatevs but run them with cookie cutter consistency - as in no topping unless the are all equally topped etc. I’m a country hick but technically speaking you would need dozens if not hundreds of plants in a comparison to get real data

Agree - not a slam at all, heck I love your testing & observations - just different strokes. I guessed the one in the middle cuz that’s how I roll..... yep - there is no middle plant!

Unfortunately clones being clones defeats the whole idea of 12/12 from seed.

 

[aphrodisia]

malawi day 118 a.jpg

• aphrodisia
• Oct 28, 2018

New grow day 68 b.jpg

• aphrodisia
• Feb 26, 2018

napalm_day_69_b

• aphrodisia
• Jan 22, 2018

All examples of plants grown 12/12 from seed

 

[copperrein]

Wait...did you run this experiment with all different strains? Do you have a control?

 

[smoke99]

I think you have a couple of ideas confused or at least conflated
if you are doing 12/12 from day one, you are already vegging them as is
most do 18/6 then "FLIP" to 12/12 to flower

now as a small grower and only for personal use and edification and the reason why this thread caught my attention is a often over looked consideration.


If you veg till they are "trees" and then flip you will still see between 2 and 6 inches of vertical growth out of a healthy plant. This is always my issue, I let them veg too long and end up with TREES outgrowing my enclosure and forcing me to decide between moving them outside(risky legally) or cutting off the tops and making them fit as they are too tall to do any of the voodoo that some do roping them down and making tree art with Bonsai weed.

My grows are in a convenient location for me, IE in a bathroom sharing the space next to a walk in shower and a window I don't use a "tent" but a hodgepodge of a rolling shelf unit with Mylar backing and lights as required in or on the top as they get too tall, and another reason why I hope that BESTVA gets ahead of the game and modifies them cables so we can adjust the hanging length to suit needs

every day I try to learn something about this stuff, and there is so much I just still dont know

 

[RetiredRN]

The point we are making to you is that you will NOT get the same results giving only 12 hours of light a day as someone giving 18 or 24. The point you make however that this is good enough for you is a valid one... I however don't have that luxury. I am providing medical cannabis to 2 other patients besides myself and I have an obligation to produce a large amount of pot. I need the most yield out of very plant that I can get, weighed against the size of my room and the ability of my lights as to how long I veg and what sized containers to run. My point is that I am NOT wasting electricity... not at all. I get roughly 10x the amount of product per plant as you do, and that my friend, is well worth the extra electricity.

I agree! Why waste time on crappy yields. If I’m gonna grow it then I want the absolute most product I can get from it especially if your growing stealth like I am.

 

[RetiredRN]

I think you have a couple of ideas confused or at least conflated
if you are doing 12/12 from day one, you are already vegging them as is
most do 18/6 then "FLIP" to 12/12 to flower

now as a small grower and only for personal use and edification and the reason why this thread caught my attention is a often over looked consideration.


If you veg till they are "trees" and then flip you will still see between 2 and 6 inches of vertical growth out of a healthy plant. This is always my issue, I let them veg too long and end up with TREES outgrowing my enclosure and forcing me to decide between moving them outside(risky legally) or cutting off the tops and making them fit as they are too tall to do any of the voodoo that some do roping them down and making tree art with Bonsai weed.

My grows are in a convenient location for me, IE in a bathroom sharing the space next to a walk in shower and a window I don't use a "tent" but a hodgepodge of a rolling shelf unit with Mylar backing and lights as required in or on the top as they get too tall, and another reason why I hope that BESTVA gets ahead of the game and modifies them cables so we can adjust the hanging length to suit needs

every day I try to learn something about this stuff, and there is so much I just still dont know

Thats my complaint about bestva lights as well. Theres not much you can do in the way of adjustment the way they designed the cables to attach.

 

[013]

If you “feel” like this helps your yields that’s great..... but science requires more than how one feels about a theory or experiment. I’m a country hick about as far from science as anyone can get but if it’s not peer reviewed - as in same experiment duplicated by countless others using the same methods and achieving the same results, then its nothing but here-say or bro science

The other aspect..... if you pull 10 seeds from the same bud and grow them out - you do not get 10 identical plants. Genetics simply do not work this way. As mentioned above you are comparing apples to oranges. Think of the biggest family you know.... Do ALL of the brothers and sisters look precisely identical to each other?? Nope they don’t and yes it’s a poor analogy but still holds true.

another bad rap would be hypothetical brothers Mutt & Jeff, why is one 5 foot 8 inches and the other 6 foot 3 while having same parents? Unless you start with identical copies which is dang near impossible using seed then this is pointless.

anyway not here to argue, and kudos my hat is off - you have some special looking girls there man!!!

 

[Nunyabiz]

Nice, so a total of 650w if run full blast. Do you ever run into problems with leaf yellowing and chlorisis of leaves once you begin flowering using Leds?

Not at all.

 

[Spitz]

I run a lot of plants 11/13 from seed. Well... sort of. I have a seedling/clone light that runs 24/7 and they do spend some solo cup time in that area. Everybody’s garden is their own heaven and I’d never suggest anyone change from what works for them. My typical yields are between 1.5 and 2 ounces per plant. A few around 1 ounce. I had one come in at 7 ounces. Should have cloned her (I learned a lesson).

I see people veg plants for 60 days, spread them out, and cut the bottom 2/3 off. Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me to waste so much space and time on unproven genetics. That said, breeding has dialed in contemporary genetics to give a pretty reliable plant every time. If you’re growing medically or commercially, your most likely growing clones and vegging exactly as long as it takes to maximize return on your time and space.

personally, I compost more of my produce than I consume. I wouldn’t even want 20ozs of any 1 plant. I have an appreciation for every plant I grow. They all have personality and I like to see them express themselves. They just can’t do that squashed up and I don’t have space to veg them any longer without smashing them down.

Lastly.. I’m always looking for that 1 in a million girl. It’s not about the time lost vegging for me, it’s the space

I’m a fan of 12/12. That said, to each their own

 

[Spitz]

Any validity to your “key to potency” statement? I’ve heard others say similar statements before. I’ve never read anything or even heard a reasonable argument to support it. Just curious is all.

 

[aphrodisia]

Any validity to your “key to potency” statement? I’ve heard others say similar statements before. I’ve never read anything or even heard a reasonable argument to support it. Just curious is all.

He doesnt know what he's talking about, usually people who have never tried the method end up disparaging it regarding potency, etc., and as for yield I personally wouldnt call plants yielding 100 to 118 grams a "bunch of little plants".

 

[Spitz]

Like I said, I’ve heard it before. More specifically, I heard you won’t see a true representation of what a plant can do until your 3rd or 4th harvest of its clones. I think I read that as a comment from Shantibaba. There was an argument made on dialing in nutrients through different stages of flowering. I don’t recall any supporting info regarding overall age of the plant. DJ says some of his strains should be grown in organic soil and starved for best results. I mean.. who starves a plant on a first run?

Some people need as much medicine as they can legally (or illegally) pump through their setup for health or profit. I’m not sure a business model exists where you wouldn’t do that with proven genetics/clones. To each their own. I was only curious to hear if the potency statement had any validity.