Defoliation

[BAKIND]

To do it or not to do it at all?

I have been reading in some (old) books that defoliation is a no, no, and that fan leaves should NEVER be cut for ANY reason.

I beg to differ however.

I think that there are MAJOR benefits to defoliation during veg.

First and foremost, I believe that clipping off fan leaves during veg, under a metal halide light, will promote branching for bud growth for two reasons. First is that it will allow the plant to focus more energy on branching itself, and second it will allow more lumens to reach the lower branching. I have actually seen defoliation done several times before flowering.

And the other advantage is that it can help reduce the possibility of an infestation.


Your comments would be GREATLY appreciated..

 

[AngryBird]

If you go through a few growing journals, you will see that most of us do.
When you have a plant big enough and fan leaves both up and down, you can clear out the bottom for example. But never too much

 

[Oldbear]

A debate that wont end any time soon lol

Ive always wondered about cutting off the solar panels that provide the energy to support branching and flowering. Maybe there is a time factor in the best answer. Late into flowering perhaps ....

 

[Advocate420]

A debate that wont end any time soon lol

Ive always wondered about cutting off the solar panels that provide the energy to support branching and flowering. Maybe there is a time factor in the best answer. Late into flowering perhaps ....

I’m on the time train. Been doing upper fan leaves late flower to also help light reach lower budding that I didn’t cut for the lollipop. My gut says the reason the plant starts changing colors and seems ready to shed them anyways ?

 

[DrDoob]

Here is good video I’ve seen about it. I feel pretty much like this guy does about pruning.

 

[Oldbear]

I think thats true Advocate - Ive read on here somewhere that they will shed leaves they no longer need.

 

[nivek]

perhaps think of yourself,, with scissors in hand,, as a little hungry beaver hopping thru the woods, like beavers do,, hungry beavers hop

and you come around a big dead tree and there is a luscious looking plant right there,, and you are really hungry

just a few leaves to taste just to fill yer tummy a bit so you dont die, that's all you want

so take a few leaves,, leaves the rest for the next beaver in a couple weeks

this stuff happens in the real world,, not just in my simple mind,, honest

cheers

 

[Oldbear]

perhaps think of yourself,, with scissors in hand,, as a little hungry beaver hopping thru the woods, like beavers do,, hungry beavers hop

and you come around a big dead tree and there is a luscious looking plant right there,, and you are really hungry

just a few leaves to taste just to fill yer tummy a bit so you dont die, that's all you want

so take a few leaves,, leaves the rest for the next beaver in a couple weeks

this stuff happens in the real world,, not just in my simple mind,, honest

cheers

Just doing a few at a time is a good approach I think. Factors in the time line too.

 

[BAKIND]

Here is good video I’ve seen about it. I feel pretty much like this guy does about pruning.

I watched the video, and I sort of agree with him. He talks about the plant needing the Larger fan leaves during flowering for bud production which I agree with, however, As I mention in my original post, I was only questioning trimming during veg, and maybe 2-3 times at most. Is sugar production more important during veg, or is developing branching? <-- Or am I wrong to ask this question? It would be interesting to see an experiment with controls, exact same plant (cloned) with defoliation and one with no defoliation.

 

[Ozinugs]

I recently left all the fan leaves on one of my Blueberry clones and did notice the buds and cola were larger than the others. The others needed a bit of training and trimming as they were slightly bigger when moved into a tent. I might add that the plant with all its fan leaves was in the far corner and was left alone pretty much and was equally shaded by the others, the bud development was better on all the branches right down to the bottom. Something to keep an eye on when dialing in your specific strains to their unique environments. Love the information sharing on this site!

 

[BTzGrow]

Very interesting subject and one I have been working on for a while. I'm a new grower, having started about a year ago and have completed two grows and in the process of a harvest in the moment. I did some different approaches to defoliation with my first two grows and had mixed results.

My first grow was a single Skywalker OG in soil. I did a defoliation a little too soon during the stretch and though I got about 9oz's, only about 6oz of semi nice buds.

Second grow consisted of 5 plants and I started a growing media called Hempy Bucket. Two Super Lemon Haze(sativa dom) and two Gold Leaf(Indica Dom) I spent a good effort with LST and Manifold training. I defoliated within about 7-10 days of the flip and that turned out to not be good. I also went with a defoliation of the fans at 21days at the end of stretch and again a minor defoliation near the harvest. The total yield on those four plants was around 5oz's. Rather disappointing, and I feel largely attributable to my timing of the defoliation.

I took several clones successfully from the four plants and started them before putting the donors into flower. Groomed them during veg with several defoliation's but didn't do any LST. There was a challenge put forth to see what would happen if I grew a pair clones from a single donor and defoliated one and left the other alone. The idea was to see if there was any difference in yield or quality/size of bud. At one point I had 14 vegging clones from all of the SLH and GL's. Before the flip I culled them down to two matching pairs from a single SLH and a single GL donor.

Both pairs are at 77days at this point. I just pulled the two Gold Leaf out of flower and have them in a dark lights out tent for a couple of days before cutting them down. Still waiting for the SLH clones to begin to show some Amber. I did only one major defoliation after stretch on one plant from each pair. Taking all the larger fan's off around 21 days.

I do have a journal going for the grow and so far I'm very happy with the results of the challenge. It does appear there is a difference between the defoliated and non-defoliated plants of each pair. All of them were defoliated several times while in veg and were rather large and healthy going into the flip. They all have the largest colas I have grow so far. I did have some issues with humidity during late flowering and brought in a small dehumidifier to get it under control. That was the only real issue I had during this grow. Previously when I had humidity issues I just did a defoliation to solve the problem. A final note, I've been using the same Hempy Bucket technique with this grow and it seems to have also provided a very stable platform for growing comparison. The plants all have received the same exact nutrient regime through out.

I'll report back here if Okay with more final results after trim and drying is done. Right now, I'm going to leave a tease that it appears the plants that were not defoliated have a larger yield. Could be wrong, but there is certainly a difference is size, weight, and stacking. The question will be what percentage.

Pictures over in my 3rd journal on my signature line.

 

[Weaselcracker]

....a little hungry beaver hopping thru the woods, like beavers do,, hungry beavers hop

and you come around a big dead tree and there is a luscious looking plant right there,, and you are really hungry

just a few leaves to taste just to fill yer tummy a bit so you dont die, that's all you want

so take a few leaves,, leaves the rest for the next beaver in a couple weeks

I tend to think of ‘defoliation’ as the most extreme type of thinning. Almost everyone does some amount of thinning at some point.
It’s a bit of a loaded term though. Terminology can be tricky.
Like beaver, for example. A very nice thing by the way but can also be quite dangerous (so be careful out there boys and girls).

The Viet Cong, for example, hopping hungrily through the woods, didn’t think much of it at all. In fact they hated it. Defoliation, I mean. I’m sure they liked beaver, when they could get it.

And lord knows getting it isn’t always easy. Especially when everything’s been defoliated. And you’re hopping along through the dead trees just hoping you’ll come across a big luscious looking beaver. Just a few beavers to taste just to fill yer tummy a bit so you don't die, that's all you want.

My point is- Beavers like leaves. So if you want to get some, don’t forget to leave some.
Hope this helps.

Better take this too in case it didn’t

 

[Advocate420]

I tend to think of ‘defoliation’ as the most extreme type of thinning. Almost everyone does some amount of thinning at some point.
It’s a bit of a loaded term though. Terminology can be tricky.
Like beaver, for example. A very nice thing by the way but can also be quite dangerous (so be careful out there boys and girls).

The Viet Cong, for example, hopping hungrily through the woods, didn’t think much of it at all. In fact they hated it. Defoliation, I mean. I’m sure they liked beaver, when they could get it.

And lord knows getting it isn’t always easy. Especially when everything’s been defoliated. And you’re hopping along through the dead trees just hoping you’ll come across a big luscious looking beaver. Just a few beavers to taste just to fill yer tummy a bit so you don't die, that's all you want.

My point is- Beavers like leaves. So if you want to get some, don’t forget to leave some.
Hope this helps.

Better take this too in case it didn’t

Education in puns. Great read lol

 

[Slowpuffer]

I trim the bottom 1/3 of my plants, shortly after the stretch is complete, with the belief, that this reduces the overall load on the plant The only leaf I remove is ones blocking light to a neighboring plant. I have found that separating the bud sites, will usually eliminate need to trim the leaves. I'm experimenting with some plant cages I bought at Job lots, similar to tomato cages now. mainlining works well, if you got the time ? But on the other hand, I've seen massive harvests using heavy defol. .

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Only once done defol in veg & it slowed general growth down some what...

As their was no leafs to do photosynthesis , crazy ah !


But i do so in late flowering perhaps around 2 to 3 weeks before expected harvest date to allow greater light to the lower bud sites it would appear to help pack on extra weight but not much, you still have sugar leafs & smaller leafs in the bud sites for photosynthesis the loss of major fan leafs is no great deal if changing colour in the latter stages of flowering.

 

[nivek]

as in everything, a balance is required. no one would suggest that every fan leaf should be removed.

actually,, the video above is quite interesting,, made me look a bit different,, especially about the undergrowth supplemental lighting i do

fan leaves need light for photosynthesis to perform, to make sugars,, but,, air circulation is very important as well,, as is light penetration, as is pest control, as is etc

so some planned removal of some lower fan leaves and old and damaged one just makes the choice easier for me

my plants look just like the full plant in the video,, bare boners down below and a full head a hair above the screen,, more or less

cheers friends,, interesting conversation, again,,

 

[StoneOtter]

Hi Bakind, You hit a nerve with many on defoliation. @Bassman59, @Hyena Merica , and others have good teaching journals that lays down some excellent understandable workings. The process these folks use and the outcome are undeniable if you ask me. I use this Heavy Defoliation method so far with photos with very happy endings. Timing is everything.

 

[BTzGrow]

Hi Bakind, You hit a nerve with many on defoliation. @Bassman59

It's really awesome to find and see someone else who has read and worked Bassman59's techniques. I followed his example with my second grow. I was very pleased with the the process. I was however challenged to use his technique side by side with no defoliation on matching pairs of clones.

In my current grow with the matching pairs I followed his technique exactly on two of the plants and they have done well. The jury is still out for me concerning which yields more until the final weigh in after drying.

 

[StoneOtter]

It's really awesome to find and see someone else who has read and worked Bassman59's techniques. I followed his example with my second grow. I was very pleased with the the process. I was however challenged to use his technique side by side with no defoliation on matching pairs of clones.

In my current grow with the matching pairs I followed his technique exactly on two of the plants and they have done well. The jury is still out for me concerning which yields more until the final weigh in after drying.

NIce

 

[StoneOtter]

A debate that wont end any time soon lol

Ive always wondered about cutting off the solar panels that provide the energy to support branching and flowering. Maybe there is a time factor in the best answer. Late into flowering perhaps ....

Hey Oldbear, this talk won't end soon is right. One of the things proponents (I am one) talk about is there's more branching if we start taking leaves early in veg. More branching = more bud usually right? This topic is likely to never end being debated. I think it's a trade off.
Manageable height, excellent yield, less leaves for moisture to mold up on, no lower larf, are things I think are traded for a week or so of the plant slowing growth. One day I have to grow a photo indoors quadlined or any other method I see here, but for now the heavy defoliation works for me.