cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
I think N is still needed in flower... roughly 1/3 the amount of each of P and K.
Deficiency in Sour Diesel
- Thread starter cliftoma
- Start date
Danishoes21
Well-Known Member
I'm there with you, but I keep in mind the N stored in the big fan leaves is to be later dropped in advanced flower the phenomenon is called Autumn senescence.
If the plant has enough N stored in the big dark green fan leaves, and the plant is flowering, why should it be required to supplement extra?
A Cellular Timetable of Autumn Senescence - PMC
We have studied autumn leaf senescence in a free-growing aspen (Populus tremula) by following changes in pigment, metabolite and nutrient content, photosynthesis, and cell and organelle integrity. The senescence process started on September 11, ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Autumn senescence, like other forms of leaf senescence, is a type of programmed cell death, i.e. the leaf cells die in an organized, predetermined way controlled by the nucleus. On the other hand, there are fundamental differences between the leaf senescence program and apoptotic processes, which have been studied in great detail in animal systems and more recently in plants (Noodén et al., 1997; Kuriyama and Fukuda, 2002). In fact, it has even been speculated that the processes are mutually antagonistic (Ougham et al., 2005) since an appropriately executed senescence program avoids the pathological consequences of cell death (Hörtensteiner, 2004). Senescence has adaptive value because of the associated remobilization of nutrients, especially nitrogen, and, to a lesser extent, phosphorus, sulfur, and other elements (Himelblau and Amasino, 2001; Hörtensteiner and Feller, 2002). The timing of autumn senescence can be regarded as the result of a trade-off between the conflicting requirements for optimizing the nitrogen and carbon status of the plant. Trees entering senescence early will efficiently remobilize nitrogen at the expense of photosynthetic yield, while trees entering senescence late will gain more photosynthates, but in some years their leaves will die before the remobilization of their nutrients is complete. Nitrogen status influences the onset of autumn senescence. For instance, alders (Alnus subsp.) that host a nitrogen-fixing symbiont (Frankia) shed their leaves while they are still green, and gardeners in temperate regions know that nitrogen-rich fertilization should be avoided since it delays both autumn senescence and the development of hardiness, thereby compromising winter survival (especially of woody perennials).
My thoughts on that are that the Nitrogen is required for the overall heath and growth of the plant. Nitrogen is needed for chlorophyll which is needed for photosynthesis which produces the glucose/sugars needed by the plant. Nitrogen is also needed for the amino acids and therefore the proteins needed by the plant.
If the plant has stored the Nitrogen in the fan leaves then there is a higher level of photosynthesis going on and all those proteins and glucose can be used for the growth of the flowers and the associated trichomes and terpines and so on. When we, as the growers, allow the plant to take the Nitrogen it needs from the fan leaf we are reducing the amounts and levels of photosynthesis that can take place and that eventually cuts back on our flower quantity and quality.
Keep as many large, green and healthy leaves as possible on the plant itself and not let them turn yellow and fall on the floor. That way we should have the harvests we are looking for.
Any loss of fan leaves from reduced Potassium levels does not help either.
================
The article does talk about trees which are perennials. In those cases the plant re-locates any available nutrients from the leaves and stores them in the roots and stems as a way to be ready for the new growth the following spring. In annuals like Cannabis the plant relocates the nutrients to the flowers to be ready for seed production if the stigma do get pollinated.
Yes, no and maybe.
Like you I did notice the clawing. Plus it looks like there are not as many larger fan leaves for a plant that size.As for the leaf color one thing is that we are not there to see the plant itself and have to rely on the photo. It is very possible the camera is not showing the actual shade of green.
Another thing is that some plants naturally have a darker green leaf and in that case it is not caused by too much nitrogen.
The plants, whether from seeds or cuttings, that I have grown that have what many feel have a strong 'indica' characteristics are dark green leaves and shorter spacing between nodes. The ones with 'sativa' genetics are a lighter green leaf and longer spacing. They can be in the same size pots, same soil, same fertilizers and amounts, and the same lighting.
Danishoes21
Well-Known Member
Very well explained and I totally understand the process and I too supply a never ending supplement of N in my watering schedule all thru the plants life, I dont use bottled nuts.
Autumn senescence is a photoperiod effect means that when the photoperiod hits that sweet spot(and environmental changes like cold days, rain, day length, even UV index) the plant or tree either perennials or annuals relocate nutrients from the leaf to other parts fruits, roots or seeds.
I guess what I was trying to highlight is that maybe the plant having excessive dark green fan leaves is a signs of excess of N (toxicity) and that a smaller dose of N could be a good start to solving the problem. Also Claw like effect on leaves is another hint of toxicity and or heat stress.
I often wonder if the clawing might not also be a sign of a root bound plant. In the set of purple photos (msg #12) the clawing is not just at the tips but runs through all the fingers from the tip to the leaf stem.
Does not show up as much in the outside(??) white light photos(msg #15). In those photos the clawing and curling is really noticeable in the smaller leaves and the fan leaves are just tip claw most of the time.
cliftoma, a lot of good ideas being tossed about and discussed. Trying to use these ideas on the next grow should really help produce better plants and harvests.
Got to thinking about your mention of pests.....
I would say to open the tent door for several hours while you can be around to be able to keep track of the temperatures. If it is like my situation the temperatures inside the tent are several degrees higher than the room temperature when the tent door is open top to bottom. My goal is to get the tent to hold to 80 to 85 F and the humidity to 45% or a bit less.
As for the insects, that is your call. You stand a risk of them getting them into the garage every time you open the door. Then once they are in the garage there is always the chance they can get onto the plants whenever the tent door is opened.
There is a certain amount of gamble in life and we just have to figure out the odds.
To me the odds tell me to work out the temperature and humidity first. Insects and mildews are easier to keep under control if I get the temp and humidity under control first.
Danishoes21
Well-Known Member
- Thread starter
- #29
What soil did you use?
Lots of N in it?
Potassium silicate helps girls fight heat and stress, very helpful.
I'd get some.
B7t reducing temp somehow would help.
Using 1/2 strength shouldn't do that though.
I'd flush the pot 3x size with plain water and re feed.
Are you alternating between water and feed btw?
Also have you checked your ph?
#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284
Soil was FF Ocean Forest. Used that in pretty much all my grows. Have had good success with it and 1/2 strength nutes in the past.
Yes, I alternate plain water and feedings. I haven't checked the PH of the soil. I do PH the water every time to 6.5. Going to try another PH meter to make sure I am not getting a bad reading.
- Thread starter
- #30
Thanks so much for all of the advice! I really appreciate all the intelligent input on this board.
Taking into account the advice given my plan of action is as follows:
(1) Flush the plant
(2) Feed a little less Nitrogen (which I guess would be Grow Big as it has the most)
(3) Open tent during day to get temps/humidity under control
(4) See how she responds and adjust accordingly
Taking into account the advice given my plan of action is as follows:
(1) Flush the plant
(2) Feed a little less Nitrogen (which I guess would be Grow Big as it has the most)
(3) Open tent during day to get temps/humidity under control
(4) See how she responds and adjust accordingly
jimihendrix58
Active Member
Plants require Nitrogen through all stages of growth.
I used to get my chemical nutrients froma place called Hydro Gardens. Unfortunatly they went out of business because of supply chain issues with covis. They had been in business since 1965. They sold greenhouse supplies, and Plant Specific Fertilizer since the late 70s.
What they said tey found on tissue analysis of marijuana is that it needs ever increasing amounts of all nutrients ntil the last 2 weeks of flowering, when nutrients can be cut back 25% in week 2 before chop, and then another 25% reduction the last week before chop, for a 50% reduction overall.
They said switching to so called Bloom Nutrients was a money grab, and was not necessary. Plant just need a balanced, steady supply of nutrients up until the last weeks of flowering. And in say weeks 3-4 in an 8 weeks flowering strain they can benefit from Monopotassium Phoshphate, and in week 5-6 can benefit from an Epsom Salts Boost. While at the ame time increasiny a small amount of the base nutrients.
Their base formula was a 3 step combination
4-20-39
15.5-0-0 Calcium Nitrate
Epsom Salts.
I greatly prefer getting my Calcium, and Magnesium from Calcium Nitrate, and Epsom sats vs Cal/Mag. And I also prefer getting my Nitrogen from Calcium Nitrate.
But its a myth to cut Nitrogen during flowering. All Nitrogen is, is Protien. Humans eat things like fist, chicken, meat for their protein, and our bodies turn it into Nitrogen. Athletes call keeping yu body supplied with enough Protein, Positive Nitrogen Balance.
If an athlete goes into Negative Nitrogen Balance, you will start catabolizing your own muscles for energy. Not something an athlete wants to do.
Same for a plant. When it does not get enough Nitrogen, it starts Catabolizing itself. Which means it is eating itself for a Nitrogen Source. You want your plant, and yourself to stay in an Anabolic Condition. And this of course applies to nonathletes too.
Nitrogen is needed for every chemical process, from Cell Splitting/Mitosis, to keeping the immune system healthy, to producing Hormones, which marijuana is doing during flowering.
Does it make logical Sense to cut protein at flowering, when the plant is going to put on more mass, and produce more hormones than at any stage of its life?? To me it is totally illogical. Its like a Bodybuilder cutting protein during a period of training for growth. How do you grow, if you do not get the proper amount of Protein???
The main thing is balance. Going by what Hydro Gardens tissue analysis says, weed basically needs a 1-1-2 NPK Balance. And their Tissue Analysis for Tomatoes is the exact same ratio Master blend uses, and is within 1 point of being the same for weed.
Since Hydro Gardens went out of business, I switched to Master Blend Tomato formula which consists of
Base Formula.
4-18-38
15.5-0-0
Epsom salts
Its slightly Lower in Phosphorus, 2 points, and 1 point lower in Potassium. So it is extremely close to the Hydro Gardens.
Its also for sure that being root bound can cause leaf clawing. But so can excess Nitrogen, PH problems.
Also one thing to think about.
If you let your plants get extremely dry, when you water them again, you can cause nutrient burn, because the dissolved solids will concentrate, and when rehydrated, can cause an excess of any nutrient, and can also burn them., and also cause leaf drop.
I use a cheap Lowes type Moisture/OH/Light meter for measuring Moisture Content. I let the needle get as close to the Dry line as possible, while never letting it reach the Dry line. l ways just slightly above. I also often use this in combination with the lefting of the pot, to see how heavy it is. I also take multiple reading with the meter from several locations in the pot. I also have 4 holes in the sides of my containers, and take 4 side readings about 2/3 of the way down the pot. But I can usually tell with just a couple readings, Ive been doing it so long.
If I was you, I would also check my PH.
You can also buy black screening, and put it in your doorway, or whatever entrance. It doesnt cost a lot. It can keep out bugs, while allowing air circulation.
Plus if you really wanted to you could get Sulfur, and treat the surrounding area outside of your building, and even inside the garage itself. You can also spray the black screen.
You can also use black screening on the Tent Entrance.
I used to get my chemical nutrients froma place called Hydro Gardens. Unfortunatly they went out of business because of supply chain issues with covis. They had been in business since 1965. They sold greenhouse supplies, and Plant Specific Fertilizer since the late 70s.
What they said tey found on tissue analysis of marijuana is that it needs ever increasing amounts of all nutrients ntil the last 2 weeks of flowering, when nutrients can be cut back 25% in week 2 before chop, and then another 25% reduction the last week before chop, for a 50% reduction overall.
They said switching to so called Bloom Nutrients was a money grab, and was not necessary. Plant just need a balanced, steady supply of nutrients up until the last weeks of flowering. And in say weeks 3-4 in an 8 weeks flowering strain they can benefit from Monopotassium Phoshphate, and in week 5-6 can benefit from an Epsom Salts Boost. While at the ame time increasiny a small amount of the base nutrients.
Their base formula was a 3 step combination
4-20-39
15.5-0-0 Calcium Nitrate
Epsom Salts.
I greatly prefer getting my Calcium, and Magnesium from Calcium Nitrate, and Epsom sats vs Cal/Mag. And I also prefer getting my Nitrogen from Calcium Nitrate.
But its a myth to cut Nitrogen during flowering. All Nitrogen is, is Protien. Humans eat things like fist, chicken, meat for their protein, and our bodies turn it into Nitrogen. Athletes call keeping yu body supplied with enough Protein, Positive Nitrogen Balance.
If an athlete goes into Negative Nitrogen Balance, you will start catabolizing your own muscles for energy. Not something an athlete wants to do.
Same for a plant. When it does not get enough Nitrogen, it starts Catabolizing itself. Which means it is eating itself for a Nitrogen Source. You want your plant, and yourself to stay in an Anabolic Condition. And this of course applies to nonathletes too.
Nitrogen is needed for every chemical process, from Cell Splitting/Mitosis, to keeping the immune system healthy, to producing Hormones, which marijuana is doing during flowering.
Does it make logical Sense to cut protein at flowering, when the plant is going to put on more mass, and produce more hormones than at any stage of its life?? To me it is totally illogical. Its like a Bodybuilder cutting protein during a period of training for growth. How do you grow, if you do not get the proper amount of Protein???
The main thing is balance. Going by what Hydro Gardens tissue analysis says, weed basically needs a 1-1-2 NPK Balance. And their Tissue Analysis for Tomatoes is the exact same ratio Master blend uses, and is within 1 point of being the same for weed.
Since Hydro Gardens went out of business, I switched to Master Blend Tomato formula which consists of
Base Formula.
4-18-38
15.5-0-0
Epsom salts
Its slightly Lower in Phosphorus, 2 points, and 1 point lower in Potassium. So it is extremely close to the Hydro Gardens.
Its also for sure that being root bound can cause leaf clawing. But so can excess Nitrogen, PH problems.
Also one thing to think about.
If you let your plants get extremely dry, when you water them again, you can cause nutrient burn, because the dissolved solids will concentrate, and when rehydrated, can cause an excess of any nutrient, and can also burn them., and also cause leaf drop.
I use a cheap Lowes type Moisture/OH/Light meter for measuring Moisture Content. I let the needle get as close to the Dry line as possible, while never letting it reach the Dry line. l ways just slightly above. I also often use this in combination with the lefting of the pot, to see how heavy it is. I also take multiple reading with the meter from several locations in the pot. I also have 4 holes in the sides of my containers, and take 4 side readings about 2/3 of the way down the pot. But I can usually tell with just a couple readings, Ive been doing it so long.
If I was you, I would also check my PH.
You can also buy black screening, and put it in your doorway, or whatever entrance. It doesnt cost a lot. It can keep out bugs, while allowing air circulation.
Plus if you really wanted to you could get Sulfur, and treat the surrounding area outside of your building, and even inside the garage itself. You can also spray the black screen.
You can also use black screening on the Tent Entrance.
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Hmm, I have not noticed that general leaf color difference. It seems I've seen some genetics of both sativa and indica that have dark green leaves.
90% sativas in Feb. '23
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Given the size of the pot, and the fact the plant is taller than the other two... definitely root bound. I've seen very big plants do OK in small pots, so the question is, is this particular plant struggling because she's root bound, even though she's getting enough nutrients? Very well could be. Being root bound is impairing proper water and nutrient absorption. This lady may need to be up potted, even though she's already in flower... and root ball massaged to loosen it up.