Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[Kicknitup1]

I definitely will be sticking around. . You guys are awesome. I don't always understand lab readings quite yet. Hoping to learn more, so i love the work everyone is doing here. I did post an analysis a little further up in the thread, hard to decipher, but I think the CBN is okay...not too high. THC is very high.

Hey that WAS your oil test back there. That wasnt too bad on the cbn. I wonder...are you using a thermometer in your oven? If it really is 250f in there I would expect way more cbn. Anyway, your results look good. May I ask how much material and whether it was buds or trim went in that soup? I'm wondering about my math cause 70+mg/ml would be crazy hi. Can be done though. How much coconut oil & how much cannabis? I guess at best adjust down to 50 min at same temp. It's easy to get carried away and give advice without enough background data and that would be a disservice to you.

 

[TashaLit]

Hey that WAS your oil test back there. That wasnt too bad on the cbn. I wonder...are you using a thermometer in your oven? If it really is 250f in there I would expect way more cbn. Anyway, your results look good. May I ask how much material and whether it was buds or trim went in that soup? I'm wondering about my math cause 70+mg/ml would be crazy hi. Can be done though. How much coconut oil & how much cannabis? I guess at best adjust down to 50 min at same temp. It's easy to get carried away and give advice without enough background data and that would be a disservice to you.

Oven is definitely calibrated. My ratio for coconut oil infusion is 1lb trim:54oz coconut oil.

I was shocked by the numbers when it was first tested. It turned out to be almost 3x as strong as I thought it would be. I like a strong brew, though, as it's easy to dilute with plain coconut oil or another fat before using it in recipes. I rarely use it full strength. It's way too potent. But it works really well for capsules. A 00 sized cap holds almost a full ml, so I'm able to do capsules that are about 50mg Thc.

I will try toasting for 50 minutes instead of an hour, but mostly I use my nose. I find that there is a certain smell that tells me it's done, more so than the oven timer. .

 

[SweetSue]

So this is an analysis that was done on a batch of coconut oil infusion a while back. Not sure what it all means really, but it's very strong. . Good for capsules and baking. Topical potions and lotions.
It doesn't have details on terpenes, I'd like to see that.

I like using coconut oil best. Also olive and avocado oil.

OMG, I just love it when lab tests appear. I kid you not, every one makes my heart sing a little joyful tune.

I prefer coconut for baking, for the flavor alone. For capsules I stick pretty much to olive oil. Last month Cajun informed us that canna doctors are beginning to see problems with long-term use of coconut oil with some patient populations, enough to make them decide to steer patients towards olive. Olive oil has additional medicinal value that makes it attractive as well as being the oil that will hold the greatest concentrations of infused cannabinoids.

We learned last year that the best oil for topicals may be grape seed, although for someone with psoriasis this can aggravate the condition and coconut is preferred, but coconut oil doesn't absorb into the skin as well as we'd like to believe. I've never tried avocado oil myself. What do you use it for, if I may ask?

Manners Susan...... Hello Tasha to the thread and to the community. Are you finding everything you need? Is there anything specific we can help you with?

 

[SweetSue]

I don't know if anyone read this, but it has interesting info regarding decarbolixation levels.

Skunk Pharm Research

Clearing the Air - Cannabis and Decarboxylation - CAT Scientific Equipment

Image is from journal of chromatology, if anyone has access to an education network maybe getting the issue and sharing with the team would help.

Ps: try using celcius/ml if you can for non us citizens, it's easier to adjust for recipes that way

This is the graph everyone worked from for years. We recently discovered it means little for our purposes due to the solvent used and the process followed. That's in great part why Canyon and Kicknitup are proceeding with their project. We need more dependable info with real-world applications to work from.

 

[SweetSue]

Cover the tray tightly with foil. Oven set to 250F/120C. An hour is usually plenty. Give the tray a gentle shake about half way through, without removing the foil. Since I've done this many times, I can tell just from the change in smell when it's good to go. Very unscientific, so apologies for that.

You might want to back that temp down to 240 for 1 hr. Doesn't sound like much but it matters. Your stuff can be good and still have potential to be better. I would be shocked if you didn't have a fair dose of CBN in there. If you want to know for sure, stick around another week. lol

Try 235F for 110 minutes. Neiko proved you'll get almost 100% conversion to THC with this time schedule and temp setting. (He got 97%.) You also might want to toss the foil-wrapped material into the freezer for a bit after you turn the oven off and it cools some. I feel this settles the contents better than without.

THC doesn't degrade to CBN as much or as quickly as we suspect.

 

[TashaLit]

OMG, I just love it when lab tests appear. I kid you not, every one makes my heart sing a little joyful tune.

I prefer coconut for baking, for the flavor alone. For capsules I stick pretty much to olive oil. Last month Cajun informed us that canna doctors are beginning to see problems with long-term use of coconut oil with some patient populations, enough to make them decide to steer patients towards olive. Olive oil has additional medicinal value that makes it attractive as well as being the oil that will hold the greatest concentrations of infused cannabinoids.

We learned last year that the best oil for topicals may be grape seed, although for someone with psoriasis this can aggravate the condition and coconut is preferred, but coconut oil doesn't absorb into the skin as well as we'd like to believe. I've never tried avocado oil myself. What do you use it for, if I may ask?

Manners Susan...... Hello Tasha to the thread and to the community. Are you finding everything you need? Is there anything specific we can help you with?

Hiya Susan.. Thanks for the info. Avocado oil is brilliant for many uses...neutral flavour and has a very high smoke point. Higher than olive oil, definitely. It's great for any recipe that calls for a fat that's liquid at room temperature. I would say that anywhere you would use olive oil, you could sub the avocado oil. Great for massage oils, too.

I am curious about what sort of issues have drs have seen come up with coconut oil? I really love working with it....

 

[SweetSue]

Hiya Susan.. Thanks for the info. Avocado oil is brilliant for many uses...neutral flavour and has a very high smoke point. Higher than olive oil, definitely. It's great for any recipe that calls for a fat that's liquid at room temperature. I would say that anywhere you would use olive oil, you could sub the avocado oil. Great for massage oils, too.

I am curious about what sort of issues have drs have seen come up with coconut oil? I really love working with it....

They haven't really shared the concerns publically yet, but compromised immune systems and large doses of coconut oil....I can see a potential problem. I'll continue using it unless I have a patient with extreme immune concerns. I decided that with olive oil being the best for infusion purposes anyway it was a no-brainier for the capsules.

I don't believe the Italian study that compared oils used avocado oil in their experiment. I'll look into it. Good for massage oil, eh? I enjoy almond oil for massage, but that's just a personal preference for the smell. I've only had one massage in my entire life. How wrong is that, eh?

 

[TashaLit]

They haven't really shared the concerns publically yet, but compromised immune systems and large doses of coconut oil....I can see a potential problem. I'll continue using it unless I have a patient with extreme immune concerns. I decided that with olive oil being the best for infusion purposes anyway it was a no-brainier for the capsules.

I don't believe the Italian study that compared oils used avocado oil in their experiment. I'll look into it. Good for massage oil, eh? I enjoy almond oil for massage, but that's just a personal preference for the smell. I've only had one massage in my entire life. How wrong is that, eh?

That's a sin. . A great 60 minute THC massage is one of life's great pleasures. You have to get one.

 

[Kicknitup1]

"THC doesn't degrade to CBN as much or as quickly as we suspect. "
I think TashaLit just demo'd that theory. If it degraded as fast as the chart indicated, she would have had 10 times that.

 

[Kicknitup1]

Does anyone know the science behind why it is suggested that you chill the oil after adding lecithin for 24 hrs? I do it because I read it and it can't possibly hurt anything. But it adds a day to prep and sometimes that's inconvenient......know what I mean? lol So what chemically is happening in the 24 hr chill?

 

[Canyon]

Kickn,

Good news, the box from you came a day early.

Bad news, the 100ml graduate an a 150ml beaker are broken. Everything else is fine, even the glass rods.

I dropped off the samples yesterday. Sometimes they have either the cannabinoid or terpene tests up the next day. Nothing has shown up yet. They will be closing soon. I will check again then.

We were charged the $20 surcharge for each oil test and received the 10% loyalty discount on the entire order.

I ask about dropping off samples at their labs in other states. He said they probably could not do that because they were somewhat independent of each other.

They do take credit cards.

 

[TashaLit]

Does anyone else know anything about this stuff? It's almost pure CBD, from hemp, and they add terpines to it. I got Blue Dream, GDP and Headband that I made into capsules.
I love working with it. The smell from the terpines is interesting. It's expensive, though.
Wondering what the experts think about about it. .

 

[SweetSue]

Does anyone else know anything about this stuff? It's almost pure CBD, from hemp, and they add terpines to it. I got Blue Dream, GDP and Headband that I made into capsules.
I love working with it. The smell from the terpines is interesting. It's expensive, though.
Wondering what the experts think about about it. .

When I find some experts I'll ask.

Hemp CBD has come a long way in the past year. By chance, does it say anywhere in the information where this hemp originated from? There are fields in Kentucky and Colorado that're turning out good quality. The addition of the terpenes is fascinating. I wasn't aware they'd started doing this.

Molecules are molecules, so a CBD molecule from hemp is really no different from one grown from medicinal cannabis. What makes the biggest difference is the lack of other components with hemp, most notably the terpenes. A reputable company that understands the ratios that would be effective could make a big dent in the market, I'd think.

The only thing missing is THC, a small amount of which would potentiate the CBD well beyond what it could be alone.

 

[SweetSue]

Does anyone know the science behind why it is suggested that you chill the oil after adding lecithin for 24 hrs? I do it because I read it and it can't possibly hurt anything. But it adds a day to prep and sometimes that's inconvenient......know what I mean? lol So what chemically is happening in the 24 hr chill?

Our chief purpose in adding the lecithin is to allow it to encapsulate the carrier-oil bonded cannabinoids, making it easier for them to slip through into the system upon administration. The protocol this idea originated from on this site was CajunCelt's cancer regimen, where this was used as suppositories. Through the backdoor you need the additional help with absorbtion.

However, I can speak from personal experience that this process also enhances absorbtion through the gut and speeds the time of onset to within ten minutes, vs up to two hours without the encapsulation. That 24 hours has been accepted as the optimal time needed to allow the lecithin to not only disperse the molecules but to encapsulate. We have no data behind us that we're aware if to back that up. Working on instinct with this one.

In an extreme condition you can get away with 6-8 hours. I wouldn't push it below 8, myself, but I've been in that position at least once, so I know the 8 hour set will work, at least it enhanced early onset in the same manner, in my case.

 

[Canyon]

Sue,
Did you use olive or coconut oil? Like you, I have gone with at least overnight. I have used mostly coconut oil and questioned what could be going on with cold jelled infused oil and lecithen that would not happen at room temperature.

I never know

 

[SweetSue]

Sue,
Did you use olive or coconut oil? Like you, I have gone with at least overnight. I have used mostly coconut oil and questioned what could be going on with cold jelled infused oil and lecithen that would not happen at room temperature.

I never know

It depends on what I'm using the oil for Canyon. Brownies I use coconut, but I have a special process for them. Capsules are FHO with olive oil.

I know what you mean Canyon. I've had the same thoughts about the coconut oil, but it was coconut oil this process was developed for. I figure there's something going on I simply don't understand yet. Bad Kat puts her coconut oil mix through a series of freeze/thaws to break the components down smaller and smaller, and claims it potentiates the oils.

 

[Kicknitup1]

Kickn,

Good news, the box from you came a day early.

Bad news, the 100ml graduate an a 150ml beaker are broken. Everything else is fine, even the glass rods.

I dropped off the samples yesterday. Sometimes they have either the cannabinoid or terpene tests up the next day. Nothing has shown up yet. They will be closing soon. I will check again then.

We were charged the $20 surcharge for each oil test and received the 10% loyalty discount on the entire order.

I ask about dropping off samples at their labs in other states. He said they probably could not do that because they were somewhat independent of each other.

They do take credit cards.

Well crap. I don't have another 100ml cylinder. Not the end of the world but handy to have. If you get bored break out the Nova and give it a spin. Just put some in & put the lid back on and push the button. About 1:45 later the light will turn green and it's ready.

 

[Kicknitup1]

Sue,
Did you use olive or coconut oil? Like you, I have gone with at least overnight. I have used mostly coconut oil and questioned what could be going on with cold jelled infused oil and lecithen that would not happen at room temperature.

I never know

The only thing I can think of is that molecules contract when cold. So that may help it "encapsulate" by tightening everything up.

 

[Canyon]

It depends on what I'm using the oil for Canyon. Brownies I use coconut, but I have a special process for them. Capsules are FHO with olive oil.

I know what you mean Canyon. I've had the same thoughts about the coconut oil, but it was coconut oil this process was developed for. I figure there's something going on I simply don't understand yet. Bad Kat puts her coconut oil mix through a series of freeze/thaws to break the components down smaller and smaller, and claims it potentiates the oils.

I had forgotten that I did a freeze/thaw on my first or second batch, just two cycles. That actually makes more sense. Where would you go looking for the answer to that in layman terms?

Well crap. I don't have another 100ml cylinder. Not the end of the world but handy to have. If you get bored break out the Nova and give it a spin. Just put some in & put the lid back on and push the button. About 1:45 later the light will turn green and it's ready.

Thanks, depending on these last tests I may want to decarb a small batch of dried buds and try an oil infusion with it with some lower temperatures.

 

[Kicknitup1]

I had forgotten that I did a freeze/thaw on my first or second batch, just two cycles. That actually makes more sense. Where would you go looking for the answer to that in layman terms?

Yeah, I'd like to see an explanation of what's supposedly going on. We need a bio-chemist on board. The next step for me was to find one. A food scientist could explain encapsulation. And, we need a stoner that works in the food processing industry labs to work the kinks out of the extraction. We have separate issues here that tap into very different knowledge bases. It's like the testing; why not pool our money, find the answers and move on to the next great innovation. I suspect we could get all those answers for free simply by finding like minded people in the right professions.

Consider the base issues we are grappling with:
Extracting cannabinoids from vegetable matter in solution efficiently without degradation or extracting the nasty things we don't want. (the early path to selective extraction) That covers a lot of physical laws. Heat, Pressure, agitation.

Encapsulation for bio availability. How do you know it's encapsulated? The right person could take the mystery out of that in one paragraph. It is widely used in the food industry. Start looking at labels.

Volatility problems with terpenes. (this will dictate decarb process). We already know the decarboxylation itself is a First Order reaction. But how much control can we impose upon it? We already know we can control it somewhat. That explains why our decarb results do not exactly follow the 1990 chart that pops up every few days. For instance, the TashaLit test. According to the chart, she would have had RAPID CBN production after say, 45 minutes. But she didn't. How much damage is the process doing to the adjoining molecules? Can we control that damage in a home setting?-----Side note on decarb: we know there is a lot of wiggle room in the time/temp area---sort of. In that you can have damn good oil and still be off several % as long as your starting material is good. But we naturally want to maximize it's potential for a host of reasons; especially if your starting material is incredibly average. Otherwise, high doses become cost prohibitive. So we need to get as close as possible. BUT that is not presently an exact science due to lack of real time measurement capabilities.

Then the medical side comes in and things get a lot more complicated.