Very cool Celt. Yeah I can see stuff here for a wife to dislike 
Nutty that sounds like my place!
Nutty that sounds like my place!
Celt’s Cavern Of Chaos
- Thread starter The Celt
- Start date
DutchinAB
Well-Known Member
You have been one busy mountain man!! It may just be crazy enough to work
Konks Dirt Empire
Well-Known Member
I have heard that mountain man narration and this sounds exciting, Celt!
Morning Celt and hail hydro. I have zero success at growing in dirt, just doesn't work for me. I love your innovation and can't wait to see this system in action. Nothing better then working in a grow room when the winter winds are blowing.
StRoostifer
Member
Morning Celt! 
How’s the hydro septic system today?
How’s the hydro septic system today?
are you doing some pineapple chunk lol , this looks to be fun mate , hard work too
- Thread starter
- #27
The Celt
Well-Known Member
Sitting idle today, waiting on parts to come next week through Amazon. I need to calibrate my pH pen before messing with things much more, pH is currently showing 4.6 but until I calibrate???? And I also need the 1-way valves so I can prevent overflowsMorning Celt!
How’s the hydro septic system today?
right now it smells of LABs or fermenting milk lol- Thread starter
- #28
The Celt
Well-Known Member
are you doing some pineapple chunk lol , this looks to be fun mate , hard work too
there WILL be some PC growing in there eventually (assuming it works 
) but that plant is inbound somewhere middle of the country atm...could be in the air, or on the ground, not sure The pineapple juice was to bring down pH and provide carbon for fast microbe growth
Two cans of pineapple and 2 bottles of lemon juice took the system from over 9 down to about 5.5...then the LABs exploded and drove the pH even farther down to 4.6 atm, but not sure the accuracy of my pen and waiting on the test kit to calibrate it so things are on hold for a few days
So far, septic showers and all, it’s been fun and will be interesting to see if it will actually work as expected
- Thread starter
- #29
The Celt
Well-Known Member
Well, I finally caught up on other journals and thought I would add a bit more information on my grow solution.
Earlier, I mentioned the brew going “septic” which I thought might need some clarification.
Many are likely to equate “septic” with human waste (shit). In this case, although it smells the same, there is no feces involved, nor is there any concern with any diseases that may/can be transmitted through human crap.
Although the smell is nasty, it is safe to work with but may cause skin issues due to the high pH. I was up to my elbows in the stuff and got a shower of it once and am no worse for wear. Even puncture wounds and cuts never infected. I DID know it was basic before I tested the pH due to the prickly feeling in the back of my hands after they dried.
All septic means, is that the bacteria used all the available O2 and CO2 and started using Sulphates (the smell), nitrates and phosphates for respiration.
For the purpose of this, bacteria can be classified into 3 types:
Aerobic (use O2), Anaerobic (don’t use O2) and those that can live in either environment.
In general, the first 2 classes are exclusive meaning, Aerobic can’t survive low oxygen levels and Anaerobic can’t survive high oxygen levels.
The LABs (lactobacillus) fits into the 3rd category where it can and does thrive in either environment. LABs also has a unique ability to produce lactic acid (the sour milk, fermenting smell) which will drive the pH down into the mid 4 range and make things too acidic for most competitive bacteria. LABs will go septic once the O2/CO2 is used up IF sulphur or phosphorus are available to feed on. Nitrogen sources MAY go septic using LABs but I’ve not had it happen digesting blood meal. Kelp and bone meal have both gone septic on me.
In regards to going septic, aeration will prevent this or aerating after will correct the septic issue.
Now that the system had been run some and was highly aerated, the LABs have dominated and the solution has gone from black and smelling like septic to a milky yellow solution smelling like fermentation and fizzing when not running. This tells me the LABs has dominated and working to digest the organics.
Although great that things are being broke down, LABs dominating the system may present problems that will require being addressed before plants are introduced. LABs create lactic acid, as part of their process, with a pH of ~4. If they continue to dominate, it’s unlikely I will be able to bring the pH up to cannabis’s preferred range, nor will it allow me to get the other microbes growing needed to grow cannabis.
Other crops, such as wild blue berries, would likely do very well with LABs as a dominate bacteria in solution, their preferred pH is ~4, but I am NOT growing blueberries
Earlier, I mentioned the brew going “septic” which I thought might need some clarification.
Many are likely to equate “septic” with human waste (shit). In this case, although it smells the same, there is no feces involved, nor is there any concern with any diseases that may/can be transmitted through human crap.
Although the smell is nasty, it is safe to work with but may cause skin issues due to the high pH. I was up to my elbows in the stuff and got a shower of it once and am no worse for wear. Even puncture wounds and cuts never infected. I DID know it was basic before I tested the pH due to the prickly feeling in the back of my hands after they dried.
All septic means, is that the bacteria used all the available O2 and CO2 and started using Sulphates (the smell), nitrates and phosphates for respiration.
For the purpose of this, bacteria can be classified into 3 types:
Aerobic (use O2), Anaerobic (don’t use O2) and those that can live in either environment.
In general, the first 2 classes are exclusive meaning, Aerobic can’t survive low oxygen levels and Anaerobic can’t survive high oxygen levels.
The LABs (lactobacillus) fits into the 3rd category where it can and does thrive in either environment. LABs also has a unique ability to produce lactic acid (the sour milk, fermenting smell) which will drive the pH down into the mid 4 range and make things too acidic for most competitive bacteria. LABs will go septic once the O2/CO2 is used up IF sulphur or phosphorus are available to feed on. Nitrogen sources MAY go septic using LABs but I’ve not had it happen digesting blood meal. Kelp and bone meal have both gone septic on me.
In regards to going septic, aeration will prevent this or aerating after will correct the septic issue.
Now that the system had been run some and was highly aerated, the LABs have dominated and the solution has gone from black and smelling like septic to a milky yellow solution smelling like fermentation and fizzing when not running. This tells me the LABs has dominated and working to digest the organics.
Although great that things are being broke down, LABs dominating the system may present problems that will require being addressed before plants are introduced. LABs create lactic acid, as part of their process, with a pH of ~4. If they continue to dominate, it’s unlikely I will be able to bring the pH up to cannabis’s preferred range, nor will it allow me to get the other microbes growing needed to grow cannabis.
Other crops, such as wild blue berries, would likely do very well with LABs as a dominate bacteria in solution, their preferred pH is ~4, but I am NOT growing blueberries
- Thread starter
- #30
The Celt
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm, earlier I made reference to a PC plant I had incoming from a friend living on the other side of the country. I was just checking on the tracking, seems Canada Post is living up to their normal standards. It was mailed Nov 25 from the west coast, on Dec 1st, it landed in Alberta (5 days later, one province ) and just left Alberta today, sitting in a warehouse 2 days
So long as it doesn’t sit somewhere and freeze, it should survive the trip
) and just left Alberta today, sitting in a warehouse 2 days So long as it doesn’t sit somewhere and freeze, it should survive the trip
DutchinAB
Well-Known Member
Shipping is only going to get worse with the holiday season fast approaching. I hope it survives the journey for you!
- Thread starter
- #32
Thanks for the shout out Celt! Check me off as present. You know who loves hydroponics? @PK
DutchinAB
Well-Known Member
True^^
PK
Well-Known Member
he meant to say who like to make hydroponic atom b.o.m.b. lol
PK
Well-Known Member
i gotta say, nice design with the custom build. However, i hope you are planning on running the same strains with each bucket.
Greetings Celt and everyone.
I was searching for information on LABS and I stumbled upon your new journal. I'm fascinated to see where you are going with this experiment, so I will be following.
I have some questions regarding the LABS and teas. First and foremost, are you saying that the PH is always going to be low with the LABS, and should I rather use it in my compost than on my weed plants if that's the case? If not, I left my bucket in the hot sun for a few weeks but it is now in the shade. It doesn't smell septic. With the molasses in it, should it have fermented to a point? What should it smell like, and can it have a layer of stuff growing on top of it I was going to make another batch of the whey and rice water and add it to my existing bucket. Would that be a bad idea? I tried to check my PH in the bucket this morning but my PH testing kit is inadequate. I have another question re the PH of the LABs... if it is diluted 1:1000, would that PH be such an issue?
I made a banana tea and a SST incorporating molasses.... as far as I can tell, they all smell sweetish with a faint smell of fermentation. I have no idea how to tell if they are still safe and effective. They too have stuff growing on the top.
I was searching for information on LABS and I stumbled upon your new journal. I'm fascinated to see where you are going with this experiment, so I will be following.
I have some questions regarding the LABS and teas. First and foremost, are you saying that the PH is always going to be low with the LABS, and should I rather use it in my compost than on my weed plants if that's the case? If not, I left my bucket in the hot sun for a few weeks but it is now in the shade. It doesn't smell septic. With the molasses in it, should it have fermented to a point? What should it smell like, and can it have a layer of stuff growing on top of it I was going to make another batch of the whey and rice water and add it to my existing bucket. Would that be a bad idea? I tried to check my PH in the bucket this morning but my PH testing kit is inadequate. I have another question re the PH of the LABs... if it is diluted 1:1000, would that PH be such an issue?
I made a banana tea and a SST incorporating molasses.... as far as I can tell, they all smell sweetish with a faint smell of fermentation. I have no idea how to tell if they are still safe and effective. They too have stuff growing on the top.
- Thread starter
- #38
The Celt
Well-Known Member
Morning PK and thanks for stopping in
I know that running multiple strains fed from the same reservoir is not a great idea as they more often than not have different requirements. But, I will be running a different strain in each bucket
I am in hopes that being totally organic, this will play by the same (or similar) rules to Living Organic Soil.There being no salts present, like a conventional hydro system, the mechanism for absorption of nutrients is different in organic setups.
In a conventional hydro system, salt based system, nutrients are in salt (ionic) form and absorbed through osmosis or the differential in concentration between the solution and the cells absorbing them. This is one reason concentrations need to be closely monitored , if the concentration in the reservoir is too high, more of that nutrient is absorbed than is required and you get nute burn, this also holds true for soil/coco based hydro setups.
In an organic soil system, the nutrients are locked up in bacteria, fungus and other micro-organisms, there are no salts present to cause a concentration differential. This is why you can run a very nutrient rich organic soil and not get nute burn.
I recently read a research paper, including a video of the mechanism by which plants obtain nitrogen for growth. This paper, and @13goody13 growing one of his girls in his turtle pond water was what gave me the push to attempt this setup, to the best of my knowledge, no one has tried this before
Back to the research and how plants obtain nitrogen in organic soils.
The plant actually ”farms” bacteria. These bacteria have a “shell” that contains N. The root releases an enzyme that attracts these bacteria. The root cells consist of a “wall”, an interstitial space and the cytoplasm (brains of the cell). The cytoplasm is protected from the space between it and the cell wall. The bacteria are absorbed through the cell wall into this space which contains a basic solution (might have been acidic) that dissolves the bacteria’s shell allowing the plant to use the nitrogen it’s made of. During this process, the bacteria are circulated around in this space, not only dissolving the shell, but also breaking up the genetic material contained in that shell. At some point, and if memory serves they still don’t understand the tigger for this, the cell ejects the bacteria genetic material where it forms new bacteria (multiplies them) in the soil which builds new shells and the process repeats.
I will see if I can find that research article, with the video, and link it here. It was quite interesting and helps explain why LOS is such a forgiving grow method.
Due to the different mechanism for nutrient uptake in organics, I am betting that the same would hold true in this setup because even in soil/peat we are working with a nutrient solution, the soil/peat is just a form of containment.
- Thread starter
- #39
The Celt
Well-Known Member
Morning @Carmen Ray and welcome, pull up a chair and help yourself to the Blue Dream and Cluster Bomb in the jars
Lets see if I can address some (or all) of your questions/concerns
LABs produce lactic acid, the smell of sour/fermentation, as they grow and multiply. This is a natural defense mechanism. LABs thrive in a pH of ~4, the pH of lactic acid, but other bacteria don’t do well in such acidic conditions, minimizes competition.
LABs are great for organics, in small does too much of a good thing can be lethal, pure raw LABs can and likely will kill your plants due to the low pH. A tablespoon of LABs per gallon (4 L) of water is plenty and will not hurt your plants, raw will, just ask me
Now having said that, you can make nutrient supplements with LABs. Say you wanted a N boost. You could use LABs to digest some blood meal making a N supplement which will be too acidic to use without treatment first. To use, after the LABs have done their thing, you would need to boil it to kill of the LABs, then add enough lime (or other basics) to bring the pH up around 6.
As for things growing in/on top of your LABs, it’s likely either yeasts or fungus. Both of which will aid in breaking down organics, yeasts break down carbohydrates (sugars) making ethanol, and fungi as a group, feed on anything and everything Fungi are the first step in breaking down stone into soil.
If you are going to be adding a tablespoon or 2 to your water, use it as is, but if you want to use the LABs as an actual feed, then I would suggest boiling and adjusting the pH before giving it to your plants
So long as you don’t smell rotten eggs, it hasn’t gone septic. The dominate species in your brew will dictate the smell.
LABs has a distinct smell and if you have made your LABs by fermenting milk you know the smell, same smell as the liquid that forms under the cheese. It’s a sharp sour smell. In a highly aerated system like what I have setup, because the bacteria are multiplying so quickly, the solution actually fizzes when left sit idle
Yeasts are our other means of fermentation and as they produce alcohol and CO2, they will smell of ethanol or sweetish like over ripe fruit and will fizz as well. Kombucha tea is a good example of this type of fermentation.
Lets see if I can address some (or all) of your questions/concerns
LABs produce lactic acid, the smell of sour/fermentation, as they grow and multiply. This is a natural defense mechanism. LABs thrive in a pH of ~4, the pH of lactic acid, but other bacteria don’t do well in such acidic conditions, minimizes competition.
LABs are great for organics, in small does
too much of a good thing can be lethal, pure raw LABs can and likely will kill your plants due to the low pH. A tablespoon of LABs per gallon (4 L) of water is plenty and will not hurt your plants, raw will, just ask me Now having said that, you can make nutrient supplements with LABs. Say you wanted a N boost. You could use LABs to digest some blood meal making a N supplement which will be too acidic to use without treatment first. To use, after the LABs have done their thing, you would need to boil it to kill of the LABs, then add enough lime (or other basics) to bring the pH up around 6.
As for things growing in/on top of your LABs, it’s likely either yeasts or fungus. Both of which will aid in breaking down organics, yeasts break down carbohydrates (sugars) making ethanol, and fungi as a group, feed on anything and everything
Fungi are the first step in breaking down stone into soil.If you are going to be adding a tablespoon or 2 to your water, use it as is, but if you want to use the LABs as an actual feed, then I would suggest boiling and adjusting the pH before giving it to your plants
So long as you don’t smell rotten eggs, it hasn’t gone septic. The dominate species in your brew will dictate the smell.
LABs has a distinct smell and if you have made your LABs by fermenting milk you know the smell, same smell as the liquid that forms under the cheese. It’s a sharp sour smell. In a highly aerated system like what I have setup, because the bacteria are multiplying so quickly, the solution actually fizzes when left sit idle
Yeasts are our other means of fermentation and as they produce alcohol and CO2, they will smell of ethanol or sweetish like over ripe fruit and will fizz as well. Kombucha tea is a good example of this type of fermentation.
- Thread starter
- #40
The Celt
Well-Known Member
Morning all, I spent the last couple hours searching for the article that had a video of the process I described above. After scanning 100s of articles, I can not for the life of me find that particular one, nor can I remember what I was searching for when I stumbled across it.
As interesting as that video was, there is a wealth of research on the process, do a search for “Rhizophagy” or check out this article, nice pictures of the process, just not the video
Rhizophagy
As interesting as that video was, there is a wealth of research on the process, do a search for “Rhizophagy” or check out this article, nice pictures of the process, just not the video
Rhizophagy
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