Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome

[TheFertilizer]

No not true about people using neem long before blah blah

azadirachtin was introduced to the market well before cannabis hyperemesis syndrome was first documented. The EPA first registered azadirachtin for use on food crops in 1990, according to Murray Isman, University of British Columbia professor of entomology and toxicology, with a specialty in natural pesticide botanicals

Vomiting from Smoking Weed? The Curious Case of Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome

The use of neem in agriculture is not a new practice. In India, the traditional farming system employed neem extracts for pest management and to supply nutrients to plants (Mossini and Kemmelmeier, 2005; Sujarwo et al., 2016). Scientific research has shown that neem is safe for workers, with no handling risks, and can be used throughout the entire crop production cycle (Boeke et al., 2004).

Neem Oil and Crop Protection: From Now to the Future

And that's not mentioning its uses other than in agricultural products, which that article goes into great detail on.

I can't find anything that says specifically when it was used in agriculture, but I can find articles stating its been used in ancient times dating back to 1992, 1986, and a mention of one from 1959.

Uses of neem based products in agriculture. Neem oil WS, the best organic and garden pesticide
Potential of the neem tree ( Azadirachta indica) for pest control and rural development

I can't seem to find any information relating to any country besides Canada banning neem oil, and that seems to not be without its own technicalities. Mind showing me the information you have which says the use of neem as pesticide is new, and where else it's banned?

 

[GrizzWald]

I mentioned banned, you can't find and I'm not from Canada..

 

[GrizzWald]

I was saying it isn't used as a pesticide for food crops and your telling me it wasn't until.
Mate, if smoking/using untreated with use of neem cannabinoids are fucking with your gut, stop using of them. There's other medication that won't give you this reaction..
if you find your hitting shit you don't know it's lifespans of, which coincides with your displeasure/pain, id say stop with that, as something it's grown with could be the cause..

 

[buzz62]

I still believe this is BS propaganda targeting cannabis. Cough hard enough you'll puke, period. Its a reflex, and humans typically don't breath fire so I'd guess that at a some point you'd yak.
Coughing so hard you vomit: Causes and treatments

As a person who suffers from this, I can truly tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. The question is; why do you feel threatened by the existence of it? It is very rare, and certainly doesn't affect everyone who smokes daily. For the last 3 years I used to only smoke pot I have grown or got from the government , no pesticides ever, after suspecting it might be something in street pot, and I still get it about once a year, oddly only in the winter months. There is no coughing, just violent retching for a bit then hours or days of abdominal pain, with no explanation as to the cause other than this syndrome. Because I live in Canada, our health professionals have checked me out with every imaginable test, MRIs, Cat scans, X-rays, scopes both ends and all for free!, and can find nothing, leaving this syndrome as the probable culprit. Previous life long all day smoker, and now on a hiatus.

 

[GrizzWald]

Fertiliser; you think it's at all possible that some very few below a %point of people may have a bad reaction to cannabinoids? Is it possible some very few below a %point of people may have a bad reaction to
Azadirachta? it's sounding like your denying possibiliities for some just as others are to you, and both sides feel superior and right. Hence we get nowhere..

 

[TerpDeDerp]

As a person who suffers from this, I can truly tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. The question is; why do you feel threatened by the existence of it? It is very rare, and certainly doesn't affect everyone who smokes daily. For the last 3 years I used to only smoke pot I have grown or got from the government , no pesticides ever, after suspecting it might be something in street pot, and I still get it about once a year, oddly only in the winter months. There is no coughing, just violent retching for a bit then hours or days of abdominal pain, with no explanation as to the cause other than this syndrome. Because I live in Canada, our health professionals have checked me out with every imaginable test, MRIs, Cat scans, X-rays, scopes both ends and all for free!, and can find nothing, leaving this syndrome as the probable culprit. Previous life long all day smoker, and now on a hiatus.

That sucks, while I empathize, it doesn't bother me that people wanna call their problem pet names. The issue I have is that this issue is extremely difficult to ascertain whether marijuana is the cause. There are factors that make this (appear) to be related to nothing morr than aggravation of the abdominal cavity. Just like one pheno can be resilient another can be vulnerable to all sorts things, they can still be totally different even though they are the same. In this case likely to be varied symptomology person to person. I do think this is a real thing. But imo, Hyperemesis Syndrome on its own is more appropriate. Because I am certain, after cannabis brings on the adverse effect, the body is quik to relapse into the symptomology. This is very similar to chemical exposures. One incident can create life long sensitivities. It is my belief that the muscular and nerve system in that region would need a seriously long period with zero coughing otherwise the body may spasm right back into a Hyperemesis state.

I hope that these conversations will help overall healthand understanding that in general, our bodies are always responding to the stupid shit we do.

 

[TheFertilizer]

Fertiliser; you think it's at all possible that some very few below a %point of people may have a bad reaction to cannabinoids? Is it possible some very few below a %point of people may have a bad reaction to
Azadirachta? it's sounding like your denying possibiliities for some just as others are to you, and both sides feel superior and right. Hence we get nowhere..

If you go back and read what I've written carefully, you'll see I've not denied the possibility of any of these explanations. I simply think that the azadirachtin theory is the least of all them to be likely, but it is getting the most traction among cannabis enthusiasts, and I think the reason for that is because it fits nicely into the version of events they want to hear.

One of the biggest pieces of evidence that points to cannabinoids as the issue here, and not pesticides, is that cannabis hypermesis syndrome can be induced with synthetic cannabinoids. There are even instances of cyclical vomiting being produced by people using purely synthesized THC. But in the case of "legal weed" alternatives, where THC analogues are sprayed on to plant material and sold to undiscerning users trying to get a cheap buzz, what is the likelihood that these products are also treated with pesticides and that it isn't the cannabinoids that are the common factor?

Meanwhile, you contradicted yourself, or I just misunderstood you, but again: Neem oil has been used as a pesticide for much, much longer, on a variety of crops, than this increase in Cyclical Vomiting has been occurring for. There is literally so much exposure to azadirachtin to people before this point in time, that to assume that this illness is suddenly occurring in cannabis users because of it is just logically nonsense. Cannabis users themselves have relied on neem for decades, and yet these reported increases in Cyclical Vomiting have only been happening in the last ten years. Sure, you can point the finger at synthetic forms like Azamax, but you're still sitting on some pretty loftily supported supposition that just because it's not natural it must have something bad in it.

The theory that states that it's caused by an over-accumulation of THC affecting the hypothalamus's ability to regulate body temperature has actual scientific case study, and even instances of successful treatment with capsaicin cream targeting those receptors. Now, there's supposedly some very strong association with the advent of using Azamax and the reported upticks in Cyclical Vomiting seen in ER rooms, but when we compare that to the strong association between those upticks and the increasing concentration of THC in cannabis products, people just dismiss that out of hand. Why would they do that if not out of bias?

What has changed in our traditional use of neem derivatives? Nothing except that some companies have used the main ingredient azadirachtin. There are many other ingredients in that mixture, maybe there's some kind of other industrial solvent which is the culprit. That might explain why the rest of the world using neem oil from everything from toothpaste, to shampoo, to makeup, and pesticides is not seeing a huge increase in azadirachtin poisoning. Even then, azadirachtin has been approved on food crops for many years, so why are we not seeing illnesses from that? Surely there's more people growing produce than cannabis in the U.S., and surely there's more people eating vegetables than smoking cannabis. So wouldn't we have seen this happening to people growing their own veggies at home and using some commercially bought neem product? Why aren't they getting sick? I suppose it's possible they are, and we're not aware of it; but then we'd basically be talking about hinging the idea that CHS is actually azadirachtin poisoning, because people MIGHT be getting sick eating food that MIGHT also be treated with azadirachtin.

Now, what has changed in our use of cannabis derivatives in the last 60 years? How about the fact that people are regularly smoking concentrates that have anywhere from 80-100% THC? That alone is a HUGE difference. Meanwhile, the ratio of cannabinoids in cannabis flower is even said to have become hugely oriented towards THC production, with modern strains tipping the 20% and higher range coming on to the scene when? The early 2000s? Hmm... Just around the time for reported increases in Cyclical Vomiting symptoms. Meanwhile what are the terpene profiles like with this modern weed and these modern concentrates versus, cannabis that people were smoking even pre-2000? Comparing modern and popular cannabis products of today with what people were using even 20 years ago, and it's like comparing apples to oranges.

I'm not denying the possibility of it being azadirachtin out of hand, but the actual evidence we have to suggest it is, is so scant that that I could only suggest it as something worth looking into. Meanwhile, people (mainly cannabis enthusiasts) are acting as if it's the prime suspect.

 

[GrizzWald]

Meanwhile, you contradicted yourself

Without a doubt, what happens when you believe nothing and talking possibilities.. but get hinged on one side of that cause the counter isn't moving or acknowledging those possibilities..

 

[Remystemple]

it's so weird, i've been smoking for 25 years and never met anyone that says weed makes them sick like that. I greened out so bad once or twice when i was a kid tho. if it feels like that then i'm sorry to who ever has to deal with this.

 

[Aroxol]

it's so weird, i've been smoking for 25 years and never met anyone that says weed makes them sick like that. I greened out so bad once or twice when i was a kid tho. if it feels like that then i'm sorry to who ever has to deal with this.

Like you I’d never gotten sick from smoking, vaping, anything my whole life. Well long story short I started eating edibles from delta 9 to help me sleep, which did wonders for me... but then the dispensary I used suddenly stopped carrying them and I didn’t want to go to a bunch of spots or have random delivery ppl at my house... so I ordered a different edible, and I swear to god I thought I was going to fucking die after eating it. Some of the worst pain I’ve ever been in, and not like an “I’m too high panicking, paranoid” type edible experience, I’m talking like sweating profusely from my entire body (trying to get rid of some poison), feeling like someone was grabbing my intestines and squeezing like a wet rag, about to faint anytime I moved. It was bad, really bad. Idk if this is what’s being classified as cannabis hypermesis syndrome, but if it is I can tell you with personal experience anecdotal evidence that IMO it’s NOT caused by thc. What I had was definitely some sort of poisoning either from a pesticide or some other bullshit that’s probably banned, it just happened to come as part of a “weed” edible.

Edit: ^^^^whole reason I fired up a grow again.

 

[Remystemple]

Like you I’d never gotten sick from smoking, vaping, anything my whole life. Well long story short I started eating edibles from delta 9 to help me sleep, which did wonders for me... but then the dispensary I used suddenly stopped carrying them and I didn’t want to go to a bunch of spots or have random delivery ppl at my house... so I ordered a different edible, and I swear to god I thought I was going to fucking die after eating it. Some of the worst pain I’ve ever been in, and not like an “I’m too high panicking, paranoid” type edible experience, I’m talking like sweating profusely from my entire body (trying to get rid of some poison), feeling like someone was grabbing my intestines and squeezing like a wet rag, about to faint anytime I moved. It was bad, really bad. Idk if this is what’s being classified as cannabis hypermesis syndrome, but if it is I can tell you with personal experience anecdotal evidence that IMO it’s NOT caused by thc. What I had was definitely some sort of poisoning either from a pesticide or some other bullshit that’s probably banned, it just happened to come as part of a “weed” edible.

Edit: ^^^^whole reason I fired up a grow again.

I'm gonna say that was food poisoning, and the reason i'll never buy edibles online. not until the health dept is allowed to inspect their kitchens. even then it's a risk.

 

[Aroxol]

I'm gonna say that was food poisoning, and the reason i'll never buy edibles online. not until the health dept is allowed to inspect their kitchens. even then it's a risk.

Yeah I don’t blame you. Was worse than food poisoning, and I’ve been hospitalized with food poisoning. It’s how I’d imagine I would feel if I ingested rat poison. That’s why I think it has to be related to pesticide, a chemical that’s designed to kill stuff.

 

[SgtKiLLx]

I'm gonna say that was food poisoning, and the reason i'll never buy edibles online. not until the health dept is allowed to inspect their kitchens. even then it's a risk.

@Remystemple , long time. How's things growin?

 

[Remystemple]

@Remystemple , long time. How's things growin?

been busy leading up to summer here. but good thanks! how's you're end?

 

[SgtKiLLx]

been busy leading up to summer here. but good thanks! how's you're end?

Yeah.. snows gone.. old leaves to cleanup, dirt, sand. Sweeping. I hear ya. Going good here, stop by my journal yo. That plant I was growing turned out to be female so tis been a bit ,, but she's almost ready to cut down

 

[HydroponicFireman]

This is Trump-level stupid. Its like a train wreck, you just have to stare and admire it for some sick reason.

 

[buzz62]

That sucks, while I empathize, it doesn't bother me that people wanna call their problem pet names. The issue I have is that this issue is extremely difficult to ascertain whether marijuana is the cause. There are factors that make this (appear) to be related to nothing morr than aggravation of the abdominal cavity. Just like one pheno can be resilient another can be vulnerable to all sorts things, they can still be totally different even though they are the same. In this case likely to be varied symptomology person to person. I do think this is a real thing. But imo, Hyperemesis Syndrome on its own is more appropriate. Because I am certain, after cannabis brings on the adverse effect, the body is quik to relapse into the symptomology. This is very similar to chemical exposures. One incident can create life long sensitivities. It is my belief that the muscular and nerve system in that region would need a seriously long period with zero coughing otherwise the body may spasm right back into a Hyperemesis state.

I hope that these conversations will help overall healthand understanding that in general, our bodies are always responding to the stupid shit we do.

Thanks for the reply, As my issue only shows up in the winter, I also wonder if that is really it, but I am taking a year off, and if it doesn't come back, I guess it is it. I also don't seem to have the coughing issue that you have mentioned, just a very short period of 20 minutes of violent retching, followed by hours or days of extreme stomach cramps that are only relieved with opiates. And they literally turn it off instantly , usually till the next year. So not really sure if it is cannabis related , but taking a long break to see....

 

[TheFertilizer]

This is Trump-level stupid. Its like a train wreck, you just have to stare and admire it for some sick reason.

Lol did you feel this thread wasn't divisive enough?

I just want to take a second to say, as clearly the most vocal person in it so far, that I have an agenda: Making things better for Cyclical Vomiting Syndrome patients. I feel like the azadirachtin theory is making it harder for them to use cannabis as a viable form of treatment. I will continue to speak out against the azadirachtin-poisoning theory's veracity, as I do not think it's a likely explanation, and it only serves to make things more difficult for Cyclical Vomiting Patients trying to be taken seriously by their doctor. I'm willing to admit my bias might color my perceptions of it, but I've done my best to stick to talking points that are verifiable by cite-able sources despite that. If anyone feels I've lapsed in providing a source for a claim, bring it up, I'll be happy to go provide one, and admit where I cannot. I say this just because I want people viewing this to trust what I'm saying, not as part of my own bias or agenda, but merely as fact.

I feel like the real problem is in the doctors who would assume that any CVS sufferer who wants to use pot and brings up azadirachtin-poisoning is just an idiotic pothead, and I don't think a consensus about azadirachtin-poisoning based on some internet blogs is going to diminish that line of thinking. But I don't have an audience with the ear of many doctors turned toward me, so I basically have to appeal to who I can. That means trying to convince other cannabis users that this azadirachtin-poisoning theory doesn't have a leg to stand on, and is just going to make it harder for medical users to be taken seriously by medical professionals.

 

[HydroponicFireman]

I'm sure I could have been nicer but I got the impression this was mostly trolling due to the original post. Did you even read the wikipedia article? Check out the sources, they're basically all news articles excluding 3 or 4. One of which explicitly states in the Conclusion of the study "In addition to organic disease, long-term cannabis use should be considered as a possible cause." So...nothing? No findings linking cannabis use and "puking a bunch" coupled with compulsive (sounds like a mental disorder I heard of) hot showering? Actually, thats not true...they did find something...theres an organ/tissue disease! Not even a "possible organic disease"....just straight up "Organ disease" (and maybe, possibly weed). I bet there's some drugs available to treat this disease, though! Oh, snap, look at that! Here they are:

Summary of therapeutic options in the management of cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome
����

Agent	Indication and dosing	Clinical outcome
IV Sodium chloride 0.9%	Hydration 1-2 L bolus and then 150-200 mL/h infusion for 24 to 48 hours	Demonstrated symptom improvement in case reports4,18
Morphine	Pain 4 mg IV as needed	Demonstrated pain control in case reports18
Acetaminophen	Headache 650 mg as needed	Demonstrated headache relief in case reports18
Lorazepam	Nausea/vomiting 1 mg IV x 1 OR 1 mg IV every 4 h as needed	Demonstrated symptom improvement in case reports18,19
Chlorpromazine	Hiccups 25 mg IV every 4 h as needed	Demonstrated symptom improvement in case reports18

Note: CHS = cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome; h = hour; IV = intravenous.

So, heroin, asprin, barbituates and salt water is the cure for puking a bunch and OCD showering?? Sounds like bullshit to me...in fact, maybe I'm in the wrong industry.

I only got one study into it and its so obviously BS I wont even continue. I damn near puke in the morning when I brush my tongue because I have a ridiculous gag reflex, but I don't go around correlating the two to toothpaste toxicity. If I did, I would at least have one double-blind study which isn't funded by private funders instead of like 30 "case reviews of reports". I also wouldn't call it "Cannabis Hydroponic Syndrome" (or whatever) when I cant even prove Cannabis is the cause. If I got a diagnosis of CHS, I'd get a 2nd opinion. They didn't even test the method of ingestion from what I could find...is it the smoke causing it? Does it still happen with cannabis infused edibles, lotions or patches? Not a very thorough study, but I don't think that was the point of it TBH.


I hope you don't take this as a personal attack...re-reading it, this might come off the wrong way lol but I dont have the time to edit..

 

[GrizzWald]

Fert, I don't understand your point of view.. you say you want people to use canbabis but your saying a percentage will have a bad reaction.. where others say it's not cannabis but a insecticide that's used that s affecting said percentage.. you view, people can't use,poison view, grow own so know no poison in it.
Poison view holds nobody back from using.. but yours does..
yours could well be right,although different experience than what I went through.. that was after almost 30 years of smoking did I get these effects,and was only a passing hot showers as I was unable to grow my own for a brief period..