Bushy plants. Do I defoliate?

[GrowMan0904]

Hi. First time grower here. Everything is seemingly going great with my grow so far. The plants look very healthy and they’ve been growing great. The 2 bigger ones are 4 week old Mimosa’s and the smaller one in the back is 2 week old Grape Kush. I had a question on the Mimosa’s though. I topped them last week and they’ve since started to grow very bushy on the top and the fan leaves are getting really big. I know topping them can stunt the vertical growth for a little but these guys seem to just want to keep growing horizontally. Should I be defoliating them at this point and removing some of those larger fan leaves? I’ve never done it before so I’m a little nervous I’ll cut off the wrong leaves. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Waywardwayne]

I’d ask someone who trains their plants similar for what you are trying for with yours. But, I think that will all open up some as it grown in the next couple days. Then you will be able to see exactly what’s going on and what may or may not need to be cut. I don’t take much of anything myself when they are still that small. But I don’t really set training goals either, there are plenty of good trainers around the forum hopefully one chimes in and helps you move forward.

 

[GrowMan0904]

I’d ask someone who trains their plants similar for what you are trying for with yours. But, I think that will all open up some as it grown in the next couple days. Then you will be able to see exactly what’s going on and what may or may not need to be cut. I don’t take much of anything myself when they are still that small. But I don’t really set training goals either, there are plenty of good trainers around the forum hopefully one chimes in and helps you move forward.

Thanks. Yeah, I’m just not sure if I should take off some of the really big fan leaves that are already maxing out on the tent space. The tops of the plants, especially the one on the right, seem to be exploding with new fan leaves after topping. They just seem to be getting super bushy now and I’m not sure if that’s a good or a bad thing. I’m guessing any healthy growth is a good thing but now need to know if I should strip them down a little to focus the energy on the new growth up top.

 

[Delps8]

One advantage of removing leaves from a plant and having the plant grow the leaves back is that the grower is entertained. I don't know that it does anything to improve the crop but my perception is that it provides a level of satisfaction for the grower.

My preference is to use practices that are supportable by our understanding of plant biology and, second, that can be demonstrated to accomplish stated goals. I've seen nothing that supports the idea that "stripping [the plant] down" improves outcomes and, the only research I've seen on the topic, indicates that there were significant drawbacks to that approach.

The only research I've seen on pruning to improve yield is the attached paper. I've highlighted much of the text but I've found it a bit of a slog to read because of the abbreviations that are used for the different pruning techniques. In a word, "bottom branch and leaf removal", which I think it pretty close to "stripping", was the least desirable of the seven techniques that were tested.

There's a strong argument to be made for "LTFA" ("leave it the f alone"). Check out how well the control plant did-"do nothing and get great results" has a lot of advantages.

On the other hand, the pruning technique that showed the best result was to prune leaves from the plant twice, once in veg and once in the second week in flower. Check out the details in the paper.

My practice has been, mainly, to LTFA. I top and LST all of my plants and I prune to improve air flow, to remove leaves that have senesced, and I also remove stems in the underside of the plant that are too small to produce anything but larf. I remove the small stems because I only use flower but, other than that, it's rare that I'll remove healthy leaves.

Your plants are healthy and growing well. Get as much light on them as they can handle, feed and water them sparingly, keep temperature and RH in range, and let them be. You'll be surprised how well things will turn out.

 

[BigBudsBunny]

I prune to improve air flow, to remove leaves that have senesced, and I also remove stems in the underside of the plant that are too small to produce anything but larf. I remove the small stems because I only use flower but, other than that, it's rare that I'll remove healthy leaves.

Agreed, Perfectly said sir!

 

[bluter]

Should I be defoliating them at this point and removing some of those larger fan leaves? I’ve never done it before so I’m a little nervous I’ll cut off the wrong leaves. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

great looking plants.

it's a bit early. normally i wait til they are a little bit bigger/bushier/branchier.

when you defol don't go too far. plan on taking no more than 10%. everyone gets carried away at first. i defol once mid way to 3/4s through veg, and then once in the 2 to 3 wk window in flower.
be especially careful if you defol in flower. the plant will stop producing big fans in flower, so what it has has to get it to the finish.

One advantage of removing leaves from a plant and having the plant grow the leaves back is that the grower is entertained. I don't know that it does anything to improve the crop but my perception is that it provides a level of satisfaction for the grower.

it's a massive labour saving practice. it also makes better use of indoor light if you lollipop, quad, or scrog.

My preference is to use practices that are supportable by our understanding of plant biology and, second, that can be demonstrated to accomplish stated goals. I've seen nothing that supports the idea that "stripping [the plant] down" improves outcomes and, the only research I've seen on the topic, indicates that there were significant drawbacks to that approach.

you are correct, on it's own it does little or nothing for production. when coupled with a proper training method it greatly increases yield.

The only research I've seen on pruning to improve yield is the attached paper. I've highlighted much of the text but I've found it a bit of a slog to read because of the abbreviations that are used for the different pruning techniques. In a word, "bottom branch and leaf removal", which I think it pretty close to "stripping", was the least desirable of the seven techniques that were tested.

There's a strong argument to be made for "LTFA" ("leave it the f alone"). Check out how well the control plant did-"do nothing and get great results" has a lot of advantages.

i always recommend new growers get a couple natural grows in before even trying topping or training. the experience to learn the plant is greatly useful, and it leaves less for the grower to worry over getting right.

even when i was in the med grow, we'd run a new strain natural first to see how it was.

On the other hand, the pruning technique that showed the best result was to prune leaves from the plant twice, once in veg and once in the second week in flower. Check out the details in the paper.

it's the same/close to how we do it.

 

[Delps8]

Re. saving labor - in what way? I remove small growth at the bottom so I don't have to deal with it at harvest time. Is that where you're talking about saving labor.

Re. better use of light-a 1" change in hang height can be a difference of >50µmol so the removing anything from the canopy ("to expose bud sites to light") will reduce the amount of photons a plant receives. I'd like to see data that shows yield vs removal of canopy leaves. Westmoreland states that it's a function of the number of moles that a plant receives. Given that light levels fall off rapid (50µmol for 1", for example), my hunch is that removing leaves from the canopy results in fewer photons being captures and, therefore, lower yield. Again, that's a hunch and I'd like to see data on that.

"i always recommend new growers get a couple natural grows in before even trying topping or training. the experience to learn the plant is greatly useful, and it leaves less for the grower to worry over getting right."
Depends on the grower.

This illustration is helpful. There's a lot of info on where to top, when to top, and how to top and it's a hell of a lot easier to top a plant than to deal with tying down the apical stem. Well, I think it is because I've never not topped a plant.

"you are correct, on it's own it does little or nothing for production. when coupled with a proper training method it greatly increases yield."
If anyone has data to support that, it would be great to publish it. The only info I've seen on pruning methods is in the document I attached and their results show that "stripping" had a significant, negative impact on yield.

 

[bluter]

Re. saving labor - in what way? I remove small growth at the bottom so I don't have to deal with it at harvest time. Is that where you're talking about saving labor.

partially. the plant will direct more resources to the larger sites.

Re. better use of light-a 1" change in hang height can be a difference of >50µmol so the removing anything from the canopy ("to expose bud sites to light") will reduce the amount of photons a plant receives. I'd like to see data that shows yield vs removal of canopy leaves. Westmoreland states that it's a function of the number of moles that a plant receives.

it's all about penetration. a super bushy plant gets zero umols in the interior no matter how you hang the light if it developed decent at all. it's less of a concern when there is piles of room all around the plant but most growers try to stuff as much as they can.

Given that light levels fall off rapid (50µmol for 1", for example), my hunch is that removing leaves from the canopy results in fewer photons being captures and, therefore, lower yield. Again, that's a hunch and I'd like to see data on that.

on the med grow we would top once, and tie most plants for simple training. they normally got 2 defols and a lollipop. not very aggressive. the plants grown that way always produced better than anything in the same strain left alone. the trade off is longer veg time.

it's not a huge difference weight wise - the real difference came in far easier processing for the weight we got.
we also noticed we threw less bud away, as we had to adhere to cosmetic values for the clients. couldn't sell them a bunch of popcorn junk, our dispensary would reject the whole lot.

at the end of the day it gave us far more usable product.

with aggressive training and defol there is no comparison at all. it will always out produce one left alone.

"i always recommend new growers get a couple natural grows in before even trying topping or training. the experience to learn the plant is greatly useful, and it leaves less for the grower to worry over getting right."
Depends on the grower.

we were thorough. we had to be. it was a job, i don't actually miss it.

Well, I think it is because I've never not topped a plant.

if you get space sometime try let one or two grow out natural. my friend went from aggressive training and defol to doing nothing. he now runs a perpetual and likes spending more on different strains than maxing yield now.