Building A Better Soil: Demonstrations & Discussions Of Organic Soil Recipes

[totalnoob]

Perhaps I missed it, I just finished the thread and it was a lot to take in. I have access to a large amount of cow manure of varying degrees of age. Can I use that as the hummus in my soil mix? Ewc in the amount I would need would be prohibitively expensive. (I'm starting an earthworm farm soon, but that won't help me for a while) if it can be used is there a way to determine what is too "hot" and what's not?

 

[bobrown14]

32 30 gallon pot mix

Girls scout cookies fematized
Fluxing all plants
30 gallon smart pots

Base mix:
30 CF peats moss
30 CF rice hulls
32 CF worm castings
10 gallons aloe vera juice

Agriculture Tumbler peats moss and aloe vera overnight to completely hydrate peats moss...Add remaining base mix...

Amendments:
150 lbs rabbit manure
20 lbs afalpha
100 lbs 6 malt barley
20 lbs kelp meal
30 lbs crab meal
40 lbs neem meal
50 lbs basalt powder
50 lbs glacier rock powder

What do you all think???

My first thought was..... front end loader... thats a lot of soil. How big is your grow space??

Ingredients are good .... the ratio I'd need a calculator ... mix it up and get a soil test kit from your local extension office and that will tell the story.

Yeah very impressive!

 

[bobrown14]

What's a good way to measure soil?

I have access to the 5g buckets from Home Depot and also to the 27g black rectangular storage bins with yellow lids from Costco. The latter is where I usually mix my soil in.

Obviously I also have access to the usual range of pots (1g, 3g, 5g, 7g, etc).

What can I use to measure 1 cubic foot so I can start using Coot's mix?

Thanks

I mix my Coots soil mix on a tarp in the driveway... mixing in a wheel barrow or a bin is a little more difficult for me as I always end up with more soil than will fit into the bins. I use buckets from HD to get it close for sure.

Your 27gal container is 3.6 cubic feet... and is about the same as a regular size wheel barrow filled to the top and overflowing..

I use a 30 gal container which is right at 4 cubic feet. I mix on the tarp, fill the container full enough so I can still carry it with a friend on the other end and carry that inside where I fill my pots with it.

Suggestion .... inoculate the soil mix with some EWC/kelp/neem meal tea.. let it sit for a few weeks unless growing outdoors then just dig a big ass hole and fill er up and inoculate.

 

[bobrown14]

Perhaps I missed it, I just finished the thread and it was a lot to take in. I have access to a large amount of cow manure of varying degrees of age. Can I use that as the hummus in my soil mix? Ewc in the amount I would need would be prohibitively expensive. (I'm starting an earthworm farm soon, but that won't help me for a while) if it can be used is there a way to determine what is too "hot" and what's not?

Most all Manure needs to be composted (not rabbit manure); by composted I mean mixed with other amendments/ingredients to make the pile thermophillic (hot to 150F) for several weeks. cow manure ain't the best input tho for several reasons.

Here's a good list I found from one of our 420mag friends and I just happen to be looking at it for some info on rabbit manure .. which does not need to be composted and kicks all other manure to the curb with regards to NPK and all that jazz, and it's what we use.. Trust me there's a local person growing rabbits and needs to unload rabbit berries... I get them FREE and bagged up for me, just have to drive and throw the bags in my pickup truck!

NPK Fertilizer, Organic Fertilizers

Yea so manure needs composting and hot composting .... or too strong and smelly and not healthy for you to grow in.

So suggest mushroom compost... rabbit manure .... those 2 should be pretty easy to come by. I found my rabbit berry sources (yes more than 1) thru my county extension service and the local 4-H club. I live in Philly, we even have a 4-H club and lots of people grow rabbits... you'd be surprised!

That source I listed says rabbit manure needs to be composted. That is not true. I use it straight into my flower pots (not seedlings tho) but certainly hardened off small plants and VEG plants going into flower.. I usually add a few handfuls (a little pun there) at flip and top dress with them as well and use them outdoors in our veggie gardens... have never burned a single plant.

 

[totalnoob]

The cow manure I have comes from our family farm, so it's readily available and I know that the cows haven't been given meds of any kind. I'll do some more research on amendments to add to get the pile heated up, and I'll check around for a rabbitry. Thanks for the link, it was interesting reading.

On another front, I have cleared the land for my first raised bed grow. 18 plants. 12 photo and 6 autos. I'm going to burn the firs and pine brush from clearing where the bed will go. Any benefits or problems with spreading the ash at the bottom of the raised bed, or mixing it in in some ratio to the soil?

 

[Conradino23]

Wood ash is one of the best amendment for growing cannabis due to easily absorbed calcium, however with manure it will be a lot more potassium than you really need in soil. It will definitely push your yield up if you want pounds for your buck, but quality will be lower in my opinion.

 

[totalnoob]

About what ratio of wood ash would you recommend?

 

[Conradino23]

Try 2-3 oz a plant at least 6 weeks before planting and mix it well with topsoil.

 

[bobsacamano]

hi. i'm kinda sorta new around here but i have a question that i just can't find the answer to, and the different search terms i've tried searching the site brings up too many or, if refined, zero results.

does anyone know of a good place to buy comfrey in the US? not seeds, seedlings preferably.

also, just wanted to say that this thread has been SO HELPFUL to me in starting my own LOS for the first time. so a big THANK YOU to everyone!!

 

[bobrown14]

The cow manure I have comes from our family farm, so it's readily available and I know that the cows haven't been given meds of any kind. I'll do some more research on amendments to add to get the pile heated up, and I'll check around for a rabbitry. Thanks for the link, it was interesting reading.

On another front, I have cleared the land for my first raised bed grow. 18 plants. 12 photo and 6 autos. I'm going to burn the firs and pine brush from clearing where the bed will go. Any benefits or problems with spreading the ash at the bottom of the raised bed, or mixing it in in some ratio to the soil?

Wood ash = Yes it's good for soil with some caveats. It's alkaline so go easy for that reason. Too much kills beneficial bacteria.

It's GREAT for the compost bin or you manure pile add to the manure and turn it over. Also for the manure and composting there's recipes for inputs ... some folks that that shit pretty serious. I would look around the internet for composting manure and recipes... and see what works for your area. I'm sure since you're on a farm you visit the local AG store. I'd ask someone there that's knowledgeable about composting (the owner).

Most all farmers compost to some degree even if its broadcasting poop in the fall ... mmm love me some poopy smellin fields as long as its not pig shit.

Here's a good read on composting... We run at least 3 cold piles and 1 hot pile. It's my job in the garden to maintain and work on the compost. For me its the most important thing to do... making soil!

Hot Compost – Composting in 18 Days | Deep Green Permaculture

 

[bobrown14]

hi. i'm kinda sorta new around here but i have a question that i just can't find the answer to, and the different search terms i've tried searching the site brings up too many or, if refined, zero results.

does anyone know of a good place to buy comfrey in the US? not seeds, seedlings preferably.

also, just wanted to say that this thread has been SO HELPFUL to me in starting my own LOS for the first time. so a big THANK YOU to everyone!!

Ok first off GREAT question... we use Comfrey as a green manure! We add it into our compost piles, can make teas and also tinctures for humans.

A little primer on Comfrey. First off this plant once you grow it, you will never be able to get rid of it. Comfrey can be propagated by root cuttings. Bocking 14 is the variety you want as this is sterile and will not produce seeds. The ONLY way to propagate it is to cut up the roots. So if you pull it up and don't want to grow more, put the roots you pull in the garbage not if y your compost pile.


Here's where I got ours from - I bought from Horizon Herbs - the root cutings and split them up and have 8 plants ... already time to take our first cuttings.

Dig a big hole ... mix up some soil or throw a some bagged compost in the hole ... plant. You will be able to get 2 cuttings the first year and several every year after.

Comfrey, Russian Live Root Cutting (Bocking 14 Cultivar), organic | Strictly Medicinal Seeds

Another good source is and good read about comfrey:

Coe's Comfrey | How to Grow





We cut the plants back down to the top of the crown in a few days new leaves already growing. We cut them about 6 times a year from now till December we are in zone 6b.

 

[Radogast]

I took a picture of my Comfrey today (Russian, purchased from a local permaculture grower with hazelnut trees last fall.) Loves to grow

I don't have a compost and twig plan for the garden yet. I was hoping to just use compost as mulch in the beds and let the worms sort it out. I seem to have underestimated the green produced by weeding and trimming. I have a 4x3x3' plastic storage locker that I could relocate onto the driveway for composting - if that would even work. My main goal is to get trimmings back into the soil. .

 

[bobsacamano]

Here's where I got ours from - I bought from Horizon Herbs - the root cutings and split them up and have 8 plants ... already time to take our first cuttings.

Dig a big hole ... mix up some soil or throw a some bagged compost in the hole ... plant. You will be able to get 2 cuttings the first year and several every year after.

Comfrey, Russian Live Root Cutting (Bocking 14 Cultivar), organic | Strictly Medicinal Seeds

Another good source is and good read about comfrey:

Coe's Comfrey | How to Grow





We cut the plants back down to the top of the crown in a few days new leaves already growing. We cut them about 6 times a year from now till December we are in zone 6b.

THANK YOU bobrown14. yes, i have done a crapton of research so i knew if i could just find a good source that i could take cuttings for years after...my main need for it is i'm trying to "change" my crappy clay hardpan soil (outside, of course) to something much better that i could garden in successfully for years to come (hopefully!). comfrey is especially good for this bc its roots grow so deep and it's so prolific...or at least that's what my research told me. and of course i can use its green parts for compost, tea, etc, and all the other good things that it provides...but my main at least initial use/need for it is as THE primary soil amendment.

thank you again for helping me out....really appreciate it.

and thanks, Radogast, for the pic.

 

[Conradino23]

If you have hard/clayish soil adding calcium carbonate with compost is gonna break it with time. Wood ash is good for that, cause if you have a garden you start a small bonfire and there you have it. Total planting is also good idea, it will help to loosen the soil, you know grass, shrubs, bamboo, vegetables whatever. Is it a desert or just a piece of rock?

 

[bobrown14]

If you have hard/clayish soil adding calcium carbonate with compost is gonna break it with time. Wood ash is good for that, cause if you have a garden you start a small bonfire and there you have it. Total planting is also good idea, it will help to loosen the soil, you know grass, shrubs, bamboo, vegetables whatever. Is it a desert or just a piece of rock?

^^^ That.... cover crops help too... calcium like Conradino mentioned. Clay is actually a good thing (not all by itself of course) as it has a high CEC so everything that plants need are locked up in the layers of clay on the electron scale. Compost and calcium together will loosen the tilth.

Clay is actually formed from granite/volcanic ash either from erosion or from the volcanic eruption itself.

It will take a little time to break the clay up. For Comfrey you will want to cut the plants down to the crown and use the leaves as mulch ... they break down pretty fast. Another good way to break up the clay is mixing in humus of any sort.. calcium wood ash ... as mentioned.

Is the soil clay from compaction, over tillage, hilly spot or low lying... how much rain do you get?? Take a pic of the field and post it .... there are cover crops you can plant that will help but depends on soil condition and type of field.

Best thing to do is get a soil test done... then you will know what exactly the soil is deficient in. Then the work begins!

 

[bobsacamano]

Is it a desert or just a piece of rock?

conradino23, hi, and thanks for helping....been reading your posts for a while on all the various journals i'm subscribed to and have learned a lot from you...also, am very jealous of your location.

it is neither. i don't really know why the soil is what it is...i'm very much still learning about all things soil. i can tell you that the clay hardpan layer is not that far down (less than 2 ft) and is so freakin' dense and heavy that when i saturate it thoroughly it sticks together to be the consistency of what i would call mud. i dunno if that tells you anything useful....

 

[bobsacamano]

bobrown, man you are so on the same page as i am....you basically summed up my research and described my future plans all in this one post....

^^^ That.... cover crops help too... calcium like Conradino mentioned. Clay is actually a good thing (not all by itself of course) as it has a high CEC so everything that plants need are locked up in the layers of clay on the electron scale. Compost and calcium together will loosen the tilth.

hence the planting of comfrey and later utilization of its green parts...all my research led me to the conclusion that it would do almost all and only what i needed to be done, AND do it both better AND faster than any of the alternatives. not to mention not breaking my back or my bank!

Clay is actually formed from granite/volcanic ash either from erosion or from the volcanic eruption itself.

i'm gonna guess erosion. i live in a river valley if the common geographic name is accurate.

It will take a little time to break the clay up. For Comfrey you will want to cut the plants down to the crown and use the leaves as mulch ... they break down pretty fast. Another good way to break up the clay is mixing in humus of any sort.. calcium wood ash ... as mentioned.

Is the soil clay from compaction, over tillage, hilly spot or low lying... how much rain do you get?? Take a pic of the field and post it .... there are cover crops you can plant that will help but depends on soil condition and type of field.

it is definitely compacted. i don't think from over tillage but i only know of its history for last 20 years or so. if it helps, almost all the houses around here are built on concrete slabs and yet their cracking is a notorious problem and those foundation fixing companies absolutely KILL here. idk that a pic would tell you much...or at least not much more than i've said here... but if you think it will i will try and get one.

Best thing to do is get a soil test done... then you will know what exactly the soil is deficient in. Then the work begins!

yep yep, that too was the A#1 thing recommended by all my research. i don't have a whole lot of money for that and when i read about the number of samples you have to take to get an accurate measurement i kinda thought maybe i'd just do max two (approx $250) and hope for the best as far as being representative of the unsampled area...

hey, thank you so much....really appreciate your taking the time to help me out.

 

[bobrown14]

i'm gonna guess erosion. i live in a river valley if the common geographic name is accurate.


yep yep, that too was the A#1 thing recommended by all my research. i don't have a whole lot of money for that and when i read about the number of samples you have to take to get an accurate measurement i kinda thought maybe i'd just do max two (approx $250) and hope for the best as far as being representative of the unsampled area...

hey, thank you so much....really appreciate your taking the time to help me out.

Tell us what part of the country you live in... don't have to tell us what county but general location.

Ok on the soil samples - helps to know what state you live in. If in the states each state has a county extension service usually at you major state university. Here in PA Penn State Ag school does all the testing. This is subsidized by the federal government and yours and my tax dollars. May as well take advantage of it right.

To take a soil sample, there will be instructions, you take a bucket and take sample scoop of soil with a small spade, walk 3-4 paces take another scoop into the bucket... etc take say 10-15 small spades full spaced out thru out the area you want to garden. Put a tarp on the ground and spread out the soil and let it dry overnight. Mix it up - back into bucket and then take a cupful into sample bag and in the mail it goes.

Takes about a week to get results back. One soil sample in PA costs me $10.. can send in as many as you like but you need to mix soil from different parts of the garden to get accurate result. For soil thats been left alone and fallow for the most part, this test will be very accurate. They will advise you on amendments and quantities to bring the soil up to what is perfect for farming/gardening what have you.

Sounds like a lot of work ... not really. Bucket and a shovel and few minutes time. This is golden. I've been doing this with my canna garden soil even for containers and it really helps me. No more guessing no more this and that ... did I mess up?? Get the soil dialed in and that usually means get your compost dialed in and the rest will follow!

IF you have a clay layer 2' down ... whats on top. Does it look like black soil? If so you're good. Very VERY typical to have a clay layer and it's how soil is. You won't find too many places in the world that have tillable soil down past 2'. That clay actually helps keep the top layer of soil in place... you could get a doctorate studying this stuff ... several actually.

There' a lot of information on the net about this very subject. I find it extremely fascinating and when my soil is dialed in, it's extremely rewarding in a lot of different ways!

 

[Cannoisseuras]

Sounds interesting

 

[SweetSue]

THANK YOU bobrown14. yes, i have done a crapton of research so i knew if i could just find a good source that i could take cuttings for years after...my main need for it is i'm trying to "change" my crappy clay hardpan soil (outside, of course) to something much better that i could garden in successfully for years to come (hopefully!). comfrey is especially good for this bc its roots grow so deep and it's so prolific...or at least that's what my research told me. and of course i can use its green parts for compost, tea, etc, and all the other good things that it provides...but my main at least initial use/need for it is as THE primary soil amendment.

thank you again for helping me out....really appreciate it.

and thanks, Radogast, for the pic.

Just as an aside, since you'll be growing one of the greatest medicinal herbs known to modern man - how cool that you'll be growing two of the greatest medicinal herbs, eh? - you should be aware that the bruised leaves of comfrey, placed on a sprain or over an area with a broken bone, will heal at the cellular level and knit the bones back together.

Gentleman, you all make me so proud that I opened this room. Thank you Conradino, BB and Rad for being such stalwart sources of much-needed information. I keep thinking I'll have time to dive into the science of LOS, but I'm too heavily invested in medicinal cannabis, so it pleases me greatly that this room is well-maintained by your collective brilliance and calming natures.