Building A Better Soil: Demonstrations & Discussions Of Organic Soil Recipes

Yeah, I'm not sure the live moss will like a grow room. But it's a learning opportunity for us all.

I just realized, Dank, you can just go out and harvest Alaskan peat and forest humus, maybe even glacial rock dust if your close enough to one. Lucky. My deciduous forest has all it's good stuff locked up in the wood and canopy. The 'soil' is really quite horrible, even the top most humus layer.

If I were you I would harvest soil from stream bank areas beneath glacial locations. Look for areas in switchbacks where materials tend to collect and the native plants are flourishing. I bet you'll have the best soil out of all of us in a year or two.

Do you fish or have a source for fish wastes from processing? You could be making fish emulsion or hydrolysate. The fungi really love that.
 
Thanks sue!:kisstwo:

So, glacial dust. Here we call it silt, or alaska mud. This was my first natural instinctive thought. Conversed about the use of it with dr.bob, fellow Ak grower, when i first started.

Im not in a position to grab any unfortunately. Its close! Just too far to walk with a 5gal bucket:laugh:
I dont fish, but it is alaska... Neighbors:Love:

Im slowly working toward an AlaskanGrown soil, glacial dust, moose poo and sealife. Plant and fish.

Good guess heirloom, i was thinking 2-3yrs. :Namaste: ..and not the best, just a great working soil :blalol:
 
Everything I've read indicate that deer droppings (moose and elk included) make pretty good fertilizer. However it has the risk of carrying e coli bacteria unless 'hot' composted (which takes special equipment and knowledge) I have deer shitting in my veggie garden all during the winter and I haven't died yet. I think it would be fine for smoking but I wouldn't use it if you are going to make edibles. (I think the bacteria is spread from contact with the plant surface, not through being absorbed as the plant is growing)
 
olderthandirt said:
Two recent mentions of microbeman. Using a search query of The Microbeman or microbeman I'm failing to find anything.

Help the search-challenged (-:
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Here's his webiste - read thru that first article on the opening page = excellent read. Spells out whats what with compost teas and how to, why to, where to, all that and more.

Microbe Organics
 
They are quick around here. :battingeyelashes:
 
Please forgive this interruption but I've only got through 18 pages of this thread so far and my question hasn't been answered yet unless I missed it. Using the no-till living organic soil, even with a green manure cover crop, I don't see how you can continue to use the same soil harvest over harvest. What about all the nutrients that were used by the last harvest? How are they replaced? Are you using it as the 1/3 compost in new soil? Sorry if this is so dumb as to say "DUH". The cost of the mix is a consideration both in the beginning and on down the road. Thank you all for your tolerance. Dan
 
lobosolo said:
Please forgive this interruption but I've only got through 18 pages of this thread so far and my question hasn't been answered yet unless I missed it. Using the no-till living organic soil, even with a green manure cover crop, I don't see how you can continue to use the same soil harvest over harvest. What about all the nutrients that were used by the last harvest? How are they replaced? Are you using it as the 1/3 compost in new soil? Sorry if this is so dumb as to say "DUH". The cost of the mix is a consideration both in the beginning and on down the road. Thank you all for your tolerance. Dan
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Good day Dan. No interruption at all. This is why we're here. :battingeyelashes: Smarter minds than mine are going to step in and offer more in-depth coverage, I'm sure. A good living organic soil has components that won't be broken down for years. So we don't really think of it in terms of nutrients for the plants, but rather raw materials for the soil community. Once the plot has been put into service it's the responsibility of the cultivator to maintain a regular schedule of amendments through teas, drenches, or top dressings of high-quality vermicompost.

So we create a soil matrix that will sustain over years and immediately begin a process whereby we keep replenishing, with a light hand. Our not-so-secret weapon is worms. Many of us raise our own to control the quality of the vermicompost and I believe all of us have worms in our pots.

Am I right here guys?

Worms are master tillers. They till our no-tills so we don't have to and they leave behind droppings that enhance the soil in a way only worms can.

The cost I put into creating my initial plot was a one-time expense. The cost of amending is relatively small and can, if necessary, be done using locally sourced plant material and homemade vermicompost, so cost becomes a non-issue. We consider LOS to be cost-effective. Once established, my plot runs indefinitely. No more soil to build.

There's my simple answer. Like I said, bigger brains than mine will be along and I'll enjoy their answers as much as you will. I started the thread hoping to attract them. It's nice when the plan actually works. :battingeyelashes: :Love:
 
lobosolo said:
Please forgive this interruption but I've only got through 18 pages of this thread so far and my question hasn't been answered yet unless I missed it. Using the no-till living organic soil, even with a green manure cover crop, I don't see how you can continue to use the same soil harvest over harvest. What about all the nutrients that were used by the last harvest? How are they replaced? Are you using it as the 1/3 compost in new soil? Sorry if this is so dumb as to say "DUH". The cost of the mix is a consideration both in the beginning and on down the road. Thank you all for your tolerance. Dan
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lobsolo,

Your question is the most important question I have asked about about growing marijuana - and I have asked a lot more questions than you have posts here :)

I spent about 9 months engrossed in studying permaculture and totally loving the wisdom of Masanobu Fukuoka, but could not fathom how to apply this to the plastic pots, lights and liquid fertilizers in my basement. How to grow according to the model of nature is a great question !!

Growing with the same soil, harvest after harvest, without purchasing a lot of inputs is, in my opinion, one of the most important questions facing human life on a resource limited planet. So when I try to grow cannabis this way, I'm doing my part, learning, and saving a boatload of money on things sold at the hydro store.


SweetSue said:
Good day Dan. No interruption at all. This is why we're here. :battingeyelashes: Smarter minds than mine are going to step in and offer more in-depth coverage, I'm sure. A good living organic soil has components that won't be broken down for years. So we don't really think of it in terms of nutrients for the plants, but rather raw materials for the soil community. Once the plot has been put into service it's the responsibility of the cultivator to maintain a regular schedule of amendments through teas, drenches, or top dressings of high-quality vermicompost.

So we create a soil matrix that will sustain over years and immediately begin a process whereby we keep replenishing, with a light hand. Our not-so-secret weapon is worms. Many of us raise our own to control the quality of the vermicompost and I believe all of us have worms in our pots.

Am I right here guys?

Worms are master tillers. They till our no-tills so we don't have to and they leave behind droppings that enhance the soil in a way only worms can.

The cost I put into creating my initial plot was a one-time expense. The cost of amending is relatively small and can, if necessary, be done using locally sourced plant material and homemade vermicompost, so cost becomes a non-issue. We consider LOS to be cost-effective. Once established, my plot runs indefinitely. No more soil to build.

There's my simple answer. Like I said, bigger brains than mine will be along and I'll enjoy their answers as much as you will. I started the thread hoping to attract them. It's nice when the plan actually works. :battingeyelashes: :Love:
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I am pretty sure I have living worms in 3 pots, dead worms in about 5 pots, and no worms in 6 more pots. It is not a vibrant worm community.

I do have 3 trays full of worms that are wriggling with joy :rofl:

I am proceeding with the belief my worms will produce enough worm castings to replenish my soil. They live on about 50% organic banana peels and 50% cannabis leaves. I sprinkle a handful of powdered rock dust (basalt) about once every 2 months and water about once a month. I added 4 crushed egg shells last month and sure hope I didn't kill a lot of my worms.

I started out with about 1 gallon of dirt and coco coir so the worms could crawl around and the worms have have added about 3 gallons of poop this year. If I can double that poop production, I am hoping this will be enough to replenish my soil in the years to come. -- - This is a few steps in the right direction, I am here in this thread to learn more
:circle-of-love:

P.S. I am not one of the bigger brains SweetSue was thinking of ... I also look forward to their answers :)
 
Could have fooled me:thumb:

Hey, are night crawlers less of a worm then red wigglers? Ive had a few for several months and was expecting to see babies, but nothing yet..
As big as this interweb thing is... Just makes it harder to find what your really after, with non conflicting results.
 
DankWolf907 said:
Could have fooled me:thumb:

Hey, are night crawlers less of a worm then red wigglers? Ive had a few for several months and was expecting to see babies, but nothing yet..
As big as this interweb thing is... Just makes it harder to find what your really after, with non conflicting results.
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Night crawlers could swallow a dozen red wigglers, and they are eaten by big fish, so in that sense they are a lot more of a worm than red wigglers.

And yeah, these internets are so full of good data, bad data, and stupid people posting that finding information is hard.

I read a book by Charles Darwin (yes ,that Darwin!) written with his son on field observations of worms. In Darwin's book the worms have burrows with pebble lined openings. He goes on for pages about how they stuff the burrow entrance with leaves and the differing techniques of which end they use to drag the leaves based upon the leaf shape. They must have been some sort of stiff upper lip, bureaucratic British Empire worms because my little red wigglers never seem to do anything except crawl towards food and away from light. When conditions are good, they multiply like crazy :rofl:

Which is all to say that I don't know anything about the reproductive habits and speed of Night Crawlers. They seem like very good worms in my back yard.
 
Radogast said:
I am pretty sure I have living worms in 3 pots, dead worms in about 5 pots, and no worms in 6 more pots. It is not a vibrant worm community.

I do have 3 trays full of worms that are wriggling with joy :rofl:

I am proceeding with the belief my worms will produce enough worm castings to replenish my soil. They live on about 50% organic banana peels and 50% cannabis leaves. I sprinkle a handful of powdered rock dust (basalt) about once every 2 months and water about once a month. I added 4 crushed egg shells last month and sure hope I didn't kill a lot of my worms.

I started out with about 1 gallon of dirt and coco coir so the worms could crawl around and the worms have have added about 3 gallons of poop this year. If I can double that poop production, I am hoping this will be enough to replenish my soil in the years to come. -- - This is a few steps in the right direction, I am here in this thread to learn more
:circle-of-love:

P.S. I am not one of the bigger brains SweetSue was thinking of ... I also look forward to their answers :)
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But you're definately one of my favorite brains to include in the conversation Rad. :hugs:

I find it so humorous that you can't keep them alive in the pots and I can't keep them alive outside of the pot. :laughtwo: I have to resort to purchasing Worm Power to make up for my own failings as a gardener. Thank goodness the worms I have thrive in my pots. I'm getting ready to leave home for almost two months. Let's see if they can survive my daughter's negligent hand.
 
As you know Radogast, Fukuoka's secret was mulching.

Lobosolo, mulching is your friend. Everything you don't use should be returned to the soil. Cover crops can be grown and mulched in pots. Every dropped leaf should be used as mulch. Supplying fresh organic material for the soil community feed on is how you maintain a potted no-till.

But since some energy will always leave the system (potted soil environment) in the form of harvested materials, you will always need to add amendments to your no till. There's no way around it.
 
lobosolo said:
Please forgive this interruption but I've only got through 18 pages of this thread so far and my question hasn't been answered yet unless I missed it. Using the no-till living organic soil, even with a green manure cover crop, I don't see how you can continue to use the same soil harvest over harvest. What about all the nutrients that were used by the last harvest? How are they replaced? Are you using it as the 1/3 compost in new soil? Sorry if this is so dumb as to say "DUH". The cost of the mix is a consideration both in the beginning and on down the road. Thank you all for your tolerance. Dan
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Hello all, hope you don't mind me chiming in, but Dan here has a good question, and I felt like throwing my 2cents in.

In a Living organic soil, you're counting on the microorganisms, and fungi in the the soil to feed your plants. Sure we add our amendments, such as kelp meal, alfalfa, and other junk, but the magic happens when the microbial life below the soil line takes over.

First off, you may have heard people talking about good fungus and bad fungus. This is true there are certain types of fungus that will attack your plants. What we're looking for in a LOS is a fungus called mycorrhizal. This particular fungi form a symbiotic relationship with its host plant. It sets up colonies on the roots of the plant and facilitates the uptake of water and nutrients. It gives the plants the nutrients that it needs, and stores the excess for future use.

Next, is the bacteria in the soil. Bacteria are the most abundant of the microorganisms in the the soil. Not to get too scientific, but basically, the bacteria in the soil have the ability to transform raw elements into readily available food for the plant. Some important nutrients that are released by microbial activity are Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Sulfur, and iron. When you add amendments like kelp meal, which is high in potassium, and has many trace elements, the bacteria essentially eat the kelp meal, and crap it out making it available for the plant.

Last but not least, the worms. As already stated, the worms till the soil for us, eating things and pooping them out, making food for the plant.

So Dan, to answer your question, I have to say this. When we build our soil, we're trying to set up colonies of microorganisms that take care of our plants for us. When the colonies are set in place, there is no reason to do anything but top dress with amendments, and water. The amendments are for the microbes to eat, not the plant. Feed the soil, and the soil feeds the plant. Hope this makes sense Dan.
 
I reckon springtails would be a great addition to a no till LOS as the blind ones that live in soil are a bit like mini worms that crawl through the soil eating dead organic matter and pooping out plant food.

IIRC the arthropod biomass in woodland soil in order of volume is arachnids then springtails then insects.

Anybody tried cultivating springtails or collecting and using them in their soil?
 
Kushtie said:
I reckon springtails would be a great addition to a no till LOS as the blind ones that live in soil are a bit like mini worms that crawl through the soil eating dead organic matter and pooping out plant food.

IIRC the arthropod biomass in woodland soil in order of volume is arachnids then springtails then insects.

Anybody tried cultivating springtails or collecting and using them in their soil?
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I suspected they might be escape artists
This is what I found at The Fruit Fly Company

Here are some basic do's and don'ts for keeping springtails:

Do's:
· Keep the culture in the coolest place in your house. They like it about 60-65 degrees. Too hot and they will die or just not breed for you.
· Keep a lid on the culture, they will spring out!
· Keep the culture damp, not wet. They like moisture, not flood.

Don'ts:
· Do not put them in direct sunlight!
· Do not refrigerate them!
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Radogast said:
I suspected they might be escape artists
This is what I found at The Fruit Fly Company
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That's the ones with springs and tails....the ones that live underground have done away with that escape mechanism or they would just get a sore head. ;)

The blind ones that live in soil might look like this one:
springtail.jpg


Maybe we should ask Frans Janssens if springtails are any use in organic horticulture? - Checklist of the Collembola of the World

He's the "beard of knowledge" on them :biglaugh:
 
Here is a soil recipe that I am currently using. Sue asked ne to share it here. It's relatively simple but it will serve you well should you use it.

This is the recipe I used.

1.5 cf bag of compost (Glacier Gold Organic)

5lbs of worm castings

1 gallon perlite

2 cups crab meal

2 cups alfalfa meal

5 cups kelp meal

3 cups dolomite lime

20 gallons of used Promix HP with biofungicide.

(I save my used soil in 50 gallon tree pots outdoors and re use that instead of starting from scratch with sphagnum peat or choir. If I was making soil from scratch I would still use a bale of the pro mix to start instead of the peat or choir))

1 cup Mycorrhizea liquid mixed with 1 gallon of water.

It should be ready to use in about 10-14 days

This size batch should fill eight 5 gallon buckets to with 2 inches of the rim.
 
I was just talking to Sue on my grow log thread and she suggested that I bring my dilemma to you guys for comment. I have gotten myself into a little bit of a pickle here, and I am seeking advice as to how best recover from my mistakes.

I went into this organic grow with great expectations, but with my learning curve still way down at the bottom. I got to the 1st week of bloom just fine, but then the nutritional needs changed to more complex requirements, and I had neglected to understand the importance of the microherd and had done nothing to establish it. Of course, because of this, my plants began to starve to death... and it was obvious what was happening with all 4 plants rapidly yellowing from the bottom, so I freaked... and ended up heavily dosing my plants with Jack's duo to keep them alive.


That worked, and the plants showed very strong growth with the applications of the strong nutrients, but I knew that I had just shot myself in both feet... I now had salts stuck in my soil. So here we are today, hoping that I can now turn this around and get it back working like a true organic soil. I have learned about teas, and thanks to The Rev's book I have 3 or 4 recipes for teas for various phases of the grow. I have ordered a good 793 gph air pump that will arrive on Friday. Yesterday I drove to the big city and spent over $200 at the hydro/grow store on things I needed for my teas, and got some more good stuff too... 7gal smart pots for the next run, a big bag of earthworm castings, alfalfa and kelp meals, ancient forest humus, liquid seaweed, refills of both kinds of bat guano, Great White mycorrhizae, a couple of big bags of Roots Organic soil... I should be set for the rest of the winter.


For now, and for watering tomorrow, I have been brewing my first true tea (not counting the big bloom bubble I did earlier in the week) but I know I don't have enough air going through this bucket yet. I have added all the good stuff that Rev suggested and assume that there will be at least some active microlife in this tea by tomorrow night, and indeed, even with just a medium sized aquarium pump and 3 big airstones, it is bubbling up nicely... just not like I see in the pictures of what a true brew should look like. This brew has lots of nutrients in it, so I am hoping that it will make the plants happy while we work harder on getting a true colony in there over the next several weeks.


I think that I understand that with the salts left over from the synthetic nutes, every time I let my soil dry out, the micro life contained there will die. I am attempting to water more often, making certain that the core of the rootball never fully dries out, and I plan on hitting this grow with a fresh batch of AACT each week until the end.


My question to the more experienced in these things is this: am I wasting my efforts here? Should I just continue with synthetic nutes on this run, or can it be saved? Anyone out there have experience in this, in saving an organic grow that stepped over to the salty side? Time will tell I guess... but I refuse to just keep throwing synthetics at this highly enriched soil if I can help it.


Any and all comments are welcome... I am a complete newb when it comes to organics.
 
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