Bill C-45: Canada's Legalization, The Drama Revs Up

[FeloniousPunk]

Hey Wildmanpete,

Nice to have you join us from south of the 49th parallel. Or maybe you from north of the 49th. Hmmm...

It really is very exciting to be an activist these days. Many countries are moving toward legalization, medically and recreationally. The US is doing it state by state. I wont' be sorry to see Sessions go, but I'm not holding my breath.

Peace.

 

[Ian Bastage]

Sort of sideways news . . . the New Brunswick Liquor Corporation has published tenders seeking 3000 sqft stores in 15 locations in the province. This along with their deal with local LP Organigram & soon to be local LP Canopy (they will build a plant in NB) seems to lay out their retail model despite the silence from the gov't.

Moncton, Fredericton, Oromocto, Greater Saint John, Bathurst, Edmundston, Sackville, Shediac, Miramichi, Sussex, St. Stephen, Richibucto, Tracadie, Perth-Andover and the Campbellton will get stores.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Moncton, Fredericton, Oromocto, Greater Saint John, Bathurst, Edmundston, Sackville, Shediac, Miramichi, Sussex, St. Stephen, Richibucto, Tracadie, Perth-Andover and the Campbellton will get stores.

I've been wondering about how many retail locations there will be and how they'll be located. Canada is the second-largest country in the world in terms of physical size, but has less people living it than the US state of California does. One assumes that many people live in cities, but the remainder is spread out quite a bit.

 

[GrEeNdAyZ]

It's been a long time since I have traveled to the East coast...would 15 be a suitable # of locations given the population?

 

[Ian Bastage]

It's been a long time since I have traveled to the East coast...would 15 be a suitable # of locations given the population?

A lot of NB is rural with the 3 major centres (Saint John, Fredericton & Moncton) & numerous smaller ones. But to look at it differently, by population, Ontario is planning 80 stores that works out to 170,000 per store. NB will be 50,000 per store.

 

[FeloniousPunk]

I've been wondering about how many retail locations there will be and how they'll be located. Canada is the second-largest country in the world in terms of physical size, but has less people living it than the US state of California does. One assumes that many people live in cities, but the remainder is spread out quite a bit.

Hey TorturedSoul,

Yes, most Canadians live in cities, mostly along the American border.

I expect that smaller communities would have a hard time supporting brick and mortar stores. Here in Ontario, the government is setting up the CCBO (Cannabis Control Board of Ontario-like the liquor control board -LCBO) and I believe the smaller communities will be shut out. People not near government outlets, or in the case of other provinces, dispensaries, will have access through the mail.

The Provinces and Territories will each determine how to handle cannabis. There will be no standard model.

Here in Ontario they have promised 150 locations by 2020. FYI: there are over 600 LCBOs (Liquor Control Board of Ontario). By July 2018 there will be about 50 CCBOs up and running. For reference, there are probably more than 50 dispensaries in Toronto alone right now. The Ontario Government's plan is not going to service the new legal market very well.

I think British Columbia will be the leader in distribution, although they have yet to announce their model. I believe they will have a hybrid system that will allow the (currently illegal) dispensaries to participate.

For years Canadians have been able to get (illegal) cannabis in the mail. I thought it was really cool to order cannabis online and receive your order in the mail. So except for the legal issue, Canada is stepping backward on cannabis. We are going to get prohibition 2.0, as opposed to legalization.

I expect there will be a slew of lawsuits. If you are a legal junkie, you'll love the upcoming battles.

Peace.

 

[GrEeNdAyZ]

I thought mail-order was going to remain as a nation wide option regardless of what an individual province decided to do. Or am I only thinking that because it was a recommendation made during hearings?

FP, I can't imagine having an access issue in Hamilton. Here in Beamsville, I can see there being a "CCBO Store" anytime soon...our LCBO & Beer Store are the same building and only share 20 parking spots.LOL

 

[Ian Bastage]

I thought mail-order was going to remain as a nation wide option regardless of what an individual province decided to do. Or am I only thinking that because it was a recommendation made during hearings?

That is what the Ministers said when they made the initial announcement last month before the hearings. But being Feds, they are assuming that the provinces will let them collect the tax revenue & then send the provinces their cut. This may not fly with the provinces who will all want as much control over the revenue as they can have.

Edit: I am wrong. That is what the ONTARIO ministers said. But the tax revenue argument remains.

 

[FeloniousPunk]

I thought mail-order was going to remain as a nation wide option regardless of what an individual province decided to do. Or am I only thinking that because it was a recommendation made during hearings?

FP, I can't imagine having an access issue in Hamilton. Here in Beamsville, I can see there being a "CCBO Store" anytime soon...our LCBO & Beer Store are the same building and only share 20 parking spots.LOL

Hey GrEeNdAyZ,

I did some quick research and found that if we allow 1 CCBO per 100,000 people in a city, we would need 92 outlets for Ontario's 30 most populated cities. That is twice as many locations than the provincial government says will be running next July.

If you do the calculations based on 200,000 people in a city, the needed outlets would be 50, 10 more than they said would be running next July. Based on this calculation only 6 cities would get more than one CCBO. Toronto (13), Ottawa (4), Mississauga (3), Brampton (2), The Hammer (2, rounded down) and London (2).

I believe Hamilton has a minimum of 6 dispensaries right now.

It sure looks like the cops are going to make some serious overtime pay trying to stamp out the dispensaries and busting people for not using cannabis at home. Prohibition 2.0, is a police forces wet dream!

Peace.

 

[GrEeNdAyZ]

Hey GrEeNdAyZ,

I did some quick research and found that if we allow 1 CCBO per 100,000 people in a city, we would need 92 outlets for Ontario's 30 most populated cities. That is twice as many locations than the provincial government says will be running next July.

If you do the calculations based on 200,000 people in a city, the needed outlets would be 50, 10 more than they said would be running next July. Based on this calculation only 6 cities would get more than one CCBO. Toronto (13), Ottawa (4), Mississauga (3), Brampton (2), The Hammer (2, rounded down) and London (2).

I believe Hamilton has a minimum of 6 dispensaries right now.

It sure looks like the cops are going to make some serious overtime pay trying to stamp out the dispensaries and busting people for not using cannabis at home. Prohibition 2.0, is a police forces wet dream!

Peace.

Nice work again FP.

Personally I'd like Ontario to go the same route as BC and allow current dispensaries to continue under whatever municipal guidelines are set but with the number they have already shut down it would almost seem unfair to the unlucky ones.

I guess the true unknown is where the actual number of regular shoppers will be once the initial excitement and rush is over.

My wife's department at the hospital has had discussions about legislation over the last couple of weeks. I was surprised that of 25 people plus their families, 3 were hardcore against legalization. The majority of the others don't care one way or the other and will probably never bother trying it, or may once just because. What was most surprising was the anti-legalization girls are all early 30's, yet the good Christian 50+ girls can't wait.

I guess we do get smarter as we age!

 

[FeloniousPunk]

Hi All,

I got smarter when I moved away from the mainstream media and started learning about things that I decided were important. I used to be a big baseball fan (nice to have watched my Cubs win the World Series last year with my brother, a once in a lifetime experience!) and read all the papers I could get my hands on, dailies, weeklies and monthlies. It wasn't long before I realized that people just regurgitate what they read. It wasn't that they had thought about it, it was what they read. Politics is too much a spectator sport. Cheering for your side is not being a good citizen. Those opposed to cannabis "legalization" are reacting to fear mongering. I see this with some of the smartest people I know. I wish they would realize politics is not a team sport, it is peoples lives.

OK, off the soapbox.

I agree that BC will be the model to follow. The hybrid model looks to satisfy everyone.

Peace.

 

[GrEeNdAyZ]

Hi All,

I got smarter when I moved away from the mainstream media and started learning about things that I decided were important. I used to be a big baseball fan (nice to have watched my Cubs win the World Series last year with my brother, a once in a lifetime experience!) and read all the papers I could get my hands on, dailies, weeklies and monthlies. It wasn't long before I realized that people just regurgitate what they read. It wasn't that they had thought about it, it was what they read. Politics is too much a spectator sport. Cheering for your side is not being a good citizen. Those opposed to cannabis "legalization" are reacting to fear mongering. I see this with some of the smartest people I know. I wish they would realize politics is not a team sport, it is peoples lives.

OK, off the soapbox.

I agree that BC will be the model to follow. The hybrid model looks to satisfy everyone.

Peace.

I agree, politics can certainly become a spectator sport. I have been addicted to US politics for atleast 30 months now, I know way more about recent US politics that I do about our Canadian political affairs. Trying hard not to offend our American friends that stop by this thread but, my favourite TV show is Big Brother...have loved all 19 seasons. However, the last two years of US politics has been way better than any season of Big Brother! So I agree FP.

Although to paint all those opposed to cannabis legalization in Canada as being or reacting to fear mongering I can't agree with. To me, when I read that, I see you go against your sentence prior, pick your favourite team and start cheering. Just because a person is opposed doesn't mean they are any more right or wrong than you are. I still think both sides deserve a voice. You know what they say, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

It appears to me that a vast number of people are now only geting there news from Facebook...perhaps a return to mainstream media would be a good thing.

No offense meant my friend.

 

[FeloniousPunk]

Hey GrEeNdAyZ,

No offense taken.

I just see these people react to the Reefer Madness arguments (the better part of 100 years) without consideration of other factors. Is there concern over Cannabis use on a undeveloped brain? Sure there is. Lets do the research. But don't argue against cannabis and let alcohol off scot free. If the brain isn't fully developed until 25 years old, then driving (look at the insurance industry, after 25 years old everything is hunky dory), drinking, voting and military service should be banned until then. But very few people look around and evaluate the big picture. People are afraid of cannabis but willingly expose their kids to alcohol (it seems to be a drug far worse than cannabis). Do any of those anti cannabis co-workers of your wife have the same anti drug values against alcohol? Do they let their kids watch programming with alcohol ads? NFL? Hockey?

I'm supportive of people's views as long as they are consistent. I don't have a problem with a parent being anti cannabis as long as they are also anti alcohol and anti contact sports, all of which risk their children's undeveloped brains. There are very few of these people. I know my views are in the minority, but peoples values are changing.

I am a Tiger-Cats season ticket holder and concede football is a sport that needs to address brain injuries. Nothing is black and white and I am supporting a game that I know hurts people. But I don't deny it.

Peace.

 

[GrEeNdAyZ]

Hey FP,

Thank you for reading my last post as I intended...I was worried that you might take it as an attack and that was certainly not my intention. So thanks.

As a proud recovering alcoholic, I can confidently say alcohol is a way worse substance that pot has or ever will be. My two adult children use cannabis and very rarely drink, my opinion is their way better off that way.

My youngest plays football. As an offensive back with speed to spare he gets hammered all the time. As a parent I guess I have to way the benefits of team sport vs the risk of injury. I understand and agree with the argument of the undeveloped child's brain but I think it's a difficult one to make because of what are already socially accepted norms...DL at 16, enrolments in the military, contact sports etc. All are the way it is and the way it has been. Even alcohol consumption, my youngest starts high school next year...I'd be a fool to expect that some time over the next 4 years he won't end up at a house party with a beer in his hand long before he turns 19. I'm sure 50 or 100 years from now cannabis will be another "the way it is" thing.

As I posted before, I honestly trust that my tax dollars do make there way back to me in some form or another. I'm hopeful that tax revenues from cannabis will make its way to research. Making an argument for legislation would be so much easier with good data. Don't get me wrong, I know there is info available. To me it's either old, difficult to interpret or just anecdotal. I have found a couple of studies that relate to me and lung disease or COPD. I think the most resent was from the early 2000's. Double blind study, participants with and without COPD...seeing as I do the breathing tests from this study every other week I was able to understand the results. Unfortunately it was really inconclusive. Participants with COPD reported little change in breathlessness after receiving THC but did score slightly better on function tests. COPD participants given a placebo scored the same as those given THC. The test results were so marginal that they are easily explainable with a slight change in humidity in the testing room. Non COPD participants scored lower when given a placebo or the same as their baseline when given THC. More than half of all participants reported euphoria when given a placebo. My own "testing" is about the same...I think I can walk farther, faster and at a greater incline on a treadmill when I'm high, but I think it's anecdotal.

The anti-legislation women my wife works with, they wrap their kids in bubble wrap and expect a trophy win or loose...so there is that.

 

[TorturedSoul]

My youngest plays football. As an offensive back with speed to spare

DL at 16

If that's code for losing one's virginity, I'm guessing that the average age is, just as it was when we were kids, lower than that.

starts high school next year.

some time over the next 4 years

house party with a beer in his hand

That one might already have happened. Around here, it almost seems to be expected of school-aged athletes. So much so that the individual players are aware of that attitude - and of the fact that they seem to get a "free pass" on their issues at least once. Although... After thinking about it, I suppose it's possible that this is more common in locations where being a star - or even a regular player - on a school sports team could be one of the top five things to ever occur in their life :icon_roll .

I think the most resent was from the early 2000's. Double blind study, participants with and without COPD...seeing as I do the breathing tests from this study every other week I was able to understand the results. Unfortunately it was really inconclusive. Participants with COPD reported little change in breathlessness after receiving THC but did score slightly better on function tests. COPD participants given a placebo scored the same as those given THC. The test results were so marginal that they are easily explainable with a slight change in humidity in the testing room. Non COPD participants scored lower when given a placebo or the same as their baseline when given THC.

When I'm able to soar (get high), I find that I've ignored much of the pain - and the issues causing same - compared to when I'm not high. I generally notice this after the fact, lol, because "during," I'm too busy getting on with life to stop and analyze. It's not so much that the substance actively combats the pain (as I do NOT favor indicas) - I'd guess - but, instead, that the cannabis either allows or actively causes my brain to treat pain as just like the other 64,535 things that make life a thing to be endured rather than enjoyed, which is to say, it minimizes their significance to my conscious mind.

Right up until I attempt an activity that is above the "this causes pain, so I would rather not do it" category and well into "this activity is simply beyond my body's current capability - and (re)learning this sad fact causes immense pain during/after the collapse" territory, lol, at which point I remember that, yes, pain still hurts. For example, I might get high and go to the grocery store, without being (overly) bothered by my leg. Later, if I'm high enough to forget that it's still not in great shape that I attempt to go up my stairs at something approaching a normal pace - and get shown this as I am bouncing down however many steps I actually made it up, to that point... Yes, the pain thing still exists...

There's also that wicked lady "Hope." I would not be surprised if it could even give a mild, temporary boost to things like the above. Perhaps not the objective things (although it may be possible in limited scenarios, due to causing the body to unconsciously work harder at a thing), but certainly the objective ones. Seems to be the same reason why some people would spend way too much money on a bolt-on for their performance (or "performance" ) vehicle, announce to all who would listen that it definitely made their car faster, with "proof" being that they could "feel it in the seat of their pants," only to be terribly surprised and disappointed at the end of the race, lol.

The issue with double-blind studies, IMHO, is that they are not truly blind - the participants are aware of the fact that they're participating. It'd be better if they were secretly dosed (or not) with the substance being tested/evaluated, and then carefully observed and monitored (again, secretly) to see if there was a positive result, a negative one, or none at all. Be kind of tricky to set up studies that way, though, lol.

EDIT: BtW:

As I posted before, I honestly trust that my tax dollars do make there way back to me in some form or another. I'm hopeful that tax revenues from cannabis will make its way to research.

Yes, trust the government. Hope, too. This makes things easier for it.

[/SARCASM]

 

[GrEeNdAyZ]

Love the sarcasm TS...lol!

I'm not totally naive enough to think that the Canadian government is not full of corruption and waste...lol...close though! At the same time I'm also not totally anti-theman to think that the government and or police are out to get me either. I'm proud to be Canadian and the things that I think being Canadian means. As a Canadian I think I'm supposed to apologize now for being proud...so I'm sorry. Lol

Seriously, for me and my family, I really don't have much to complain about...well maybe this...since the little town I live in is growing so fast, it now takes me 45sec longer to get the the grocery store...so I'll bitch that our 3 traffic lights need to be synchronized better.

As for my boy...he's not being raised any different than I was. If he gets hurt on the field, suck it up princess! If playing high school football keeps him involved and he has a few beers and gets laid...good for him! I don't think he's sexually active yet, but, I spent some time behind the portable's at the catholic school when I was his age to. So to me, your right, it's the same as when we were kids.

I think you did a better job explaining than I did when it comes to an increase in activity when high. That's exactly what I mean when I say anecdotal. I cant even imagine how you would come up with a truly blind study with cannabis, particularly smoking it. Plus it clearly has such a different effect on one person to the next, so many variables.

Hey your not being fair with you performance car analogy...you know as well as I that if I put an "R" sticker on the back of my car I gain 50 HP and 2/10th in the quarter!

 

[FeloniousPunk]

The best bang for your performance buck is switching to smaller wheels.

It will take a huge chunk out of your 0-60 times. That is real performance your co-pilot can measure on their timex.

Peace.

 

[FeloniousPunk]

The best bang for your performance buck is switching to smaller wheels.

It will take a huge chunk out of your 0-60 times. That is real performance your co-pilot can measure on their timex.

Peace.

Of course if you recalibrate the speedo the performance gain is lost!

LoL

Peace.

 

[Ian Bastage]

We are hearing info from the media in Quebec . . .

"The Quebec government will establish a nonprofit public company to manage the distribution and sale of recreational cannabis within the province, according to a report in the newspaper La Presse.

The news means entrepreneurs will be blocked from participating in marijuana retail in Canada's two largest provinces, Ontario and Quebec.

According to La Presse, the corporation will be a not-for-profit subsidiary of the Société des alcools du Québec (SAQ), a provincial Crown corporation responsible for the trade of alcoholic beverages.

It will oversee 20-40 retail counters, according to the report in the French-language newspaper.

The newspaper noted the province wants to table a bill before mid-November. The Quebec government has not yet unveiled the retail plan, however." from Marijuana Business Daily

 

[Ian Bastage]

"Chagger said the government plans to bring Bill C-45, the Cannabis Act, before the House for report stage next Wednesday, November 1. Report stage allows the House to again consider the bill as a whole with input and consideration from the House Standing Committee on Health, and also suggest new amendments prior to the third reading of the bill.

If and when the bill passes third reading in the House of Commons, it will then be sent to the Senate where it will repeat the same process of readings and committee hearings before having a chance at becoming law.

The impaired driving bill, C-46, which is seen as a companion to the Cannabis Act, just completed report stage this week and is expected to begin debate at third reading in the House on Friday Oct 27. Report stage for Bill C-46 was completed during the course of three days of the House meeting . . .

Even after passing third reading in the House, both bills will have to make their way through a similar process in the Senate, before having the opportunity to receive Royal Assent and become law." Lift News