Are we using too much light?

[Grassmaster]

Lex says plants are unable to use light above 45,000 LUX?

This dude says at least 40,000 lux in veg?

Right now my lights 4 cob system is using a total of only 100 watts of power (for 4 plants). I have to raise the lights way away to keep them from getting too much light? If you have them close to 1 foot away I get 65,000 LUX? And one of my plants looks stressed. I'm guessing Lex may be right?

 

[TorturedSoul]

Are we using too much light?

Hmm... Must be the subject of the weekend, lol.

Lux = very poor way to measure light, unless you're planning your home interior lighting. It's weighted - and heavily so - towards the portions of the visible spectrum that appear brightest to the Mark I Eyeball, Human. Which isn't exactly the best portion of the spectrum for plants.

In theory, then, when comparing two lights of comparable efficiency and wattage, the one with the LOWER lux reading could just as easily be the most powerful grow light.

This has been common knowledge since well before "PAR" became an oft discussed topic, so part of me wants to question the judgment of anyone who has uploaded a video to YouTube recently (IOW, last few to several years at least) with a subject such as "plants are unable to use light above 45,000 LUX).

But, yeah, there is a maximum amount of light-energy that a plant can process at one time. And also in a day's time; see:

cannabis DLI

(DLI is an abbreviation for Day Light Integral, and plugging those the two terms into your favorite web-search engine ought to provide lots of information on the subject.)

Raising your garden temperature will help a bit. Doing so whilst adding CO₂ supplementation will help quite a bit in terms of how much light-energy your cannabis plants can effectively process. But there's still going to be an upper limit, otherwise enough light would allow us to literally watch them grow (into trees, lol).

 

[Mayne]

Look, when you have 1 light, knowing your lux is important, not because of spectrum or anything, but knowing your intensity that you have. Thats allllll it does, measure intensity, IN YOUR GROW AREA.

If you have a 300 real watt light, you veg with HALF of what the TOTAL intensity to the height you can get nearest your LED before burning. SO, THAT is your ceiling, and You take HALF that LUX, and that is your baseline for Veg, because when you Flower, you want to double your veg watts.

So, knowing your total lux possible, You know what you should be giving your plant from seedling to finish.

You dont give a seedling 1000 PAR, You dont give a week 4 veg 1000 PAR, UNLESS, your flower is 2000 PAR,

My plant is flowering nicely at 30,000 lux, and NEVER gets more then that,

BUCKET SIZE Matters, because a 1 gallon will only grow so many roots, and more roots, OR BIOMASS, In a 3 Gallon, will grow MORE BIOMASS, and a 5 gallon will grow more then the 3, should anyways.

a Stalk of 1/4 inch thickness, cant take the amount of light that a 1/2 inch thickness stalk, because its LESS BIOMASS, and needs less light then the larger stalk.

Stem thickness is relative to lux, AND nute PPMs, AND BUCKET SIZE, AND WATTS,

a LUX meter gets you dialed in, because you can give your plant to much light, and a lux meter shows Intensity.

I have a very precise plan im following with certain things right now, and LUX or light intensity is the main narrative for it.

I havent even watched this dudes video yet, because he is wrong on alot of things,lol..

Bottom line is, you dont give your plant the same flower intensity that you would give it 2 weeks in veg.

ok, now i will watch the vid,LOL>.

 

[Mayne]

ok, i watched vid, and yeap, he hit it on the head.

seedlings need 5,000-10,000 lux 1-4 week veg, 20,000 Mid flower to finish, 35,000 lux is just great. The thing with the sun is, the plant matter is cooled, and doenst have a blanket of heat on it, like the LED would be, so the plant has to work double time to cool itself, then u get deficiencies, because the plant is using up Mag and potassium to keep herself cool,

 

[Althegardener2]

How high should light be on seedlings? I've got a 6k led I used for the last batch but wasn't sure on the height distance because with vegetables I usually lower it way down so they don't stretch. Thanks for any reply.

 

[Mayne]

stretch is from genetics and cold night temps,

what watts you have?

 

[Althegardener2]

To be very honest I don't know. I know it is 6k and full spectrum. I'm going to spring for something better pretty soon and I can't afford fancy so I'm thinking about just setting up full spectrum leds available locally and work with them, unless there is a better alternative for us poor folks?

 

[Mayne]

Mars TS1000, best light for the money, to be honest. Zon for $150, but you get timer, temp/humidity meter, soil meter, hang kit, cant beat it, great starter/hobby small area light. and its dimmable.

what size area you have to work with?

 

[Althegardener2]

Thank you for the recommendation. Seriously I couldn't get anyone to narrow it down for me on the other forum. I'll definitely look that up asap.

 

[Mayne]

No Problem. Ive seen them in action, they are great lights, and on the cheap side, and cooler running. Most would say use a hps, but that is a whole nother can of worms, with cooling and exhaust. Other forums arent so hot on mars, they are struck in mind with the old tech Mars used when they entered the LED business, things have changed, plus they are DIY crazies, but simple plug in and use, this is the best route for the money, AND learning experience to get some grows under your belt for fine meds,

Great luck to you,

If you had a lux meter, i can give you a general idea for your seedlings that u have now, iphone has an app to get a basic idea of it.

 

[Grassmaster]

How high should light be on seedlings? I've got a 6k led I used for the last batch but wasn't sure on the height distance because with vegetables I usually lower it way down so they don't stretch. Thanks for any reply.

You have to have some type of light meter to know how far away to have your lights. I'm using my cellphone app. I have 2 meters but they are broken. I'm not going to buy a meter again from those companies.

If you buy new lights get the most efficient ones. I'm only using 100 watts for 4 plants during veg with my cob system.

 

[TorturedSoul]

stretch is from genetics and cold night temps,

And amount of light (or lack thereof), and spectrum. Grab two clones from the same mother, stick one under a HPS and another under a MH of the same wattage, run both lighting setups from start to harvest, and they'll both be receiving (very roughly!) the same amount of photons - but you'll tend to end up with a somewhat more compact plant in the room/box/tent that contains the metal halide, while the one being lit by the high pressure sodium ends up being both larger and slightly more productive. Incidentally, the lux values of the two lights will be significantly different (due to the differing spectrum, with more of the HPS' output in those wavelengths that we perceive as being brighter than they actually are).

Mars TS1000, best light for the money, to be honest. Zon for $150, but you get timer, temp/humidity meter, soil meter, hang kit, cant beat it, great starter/hobby small area light. and its dimmable.

I won one of those! I haven't really had a chance to use it to any purpose yet, as I was just in the seedling stage when some SOB attempted to burglarize my house (FFS!). I came running from another room (I was home at the time, thankfully) to take care of that little issue, but ended up getting caught up on the dining room doorway trying to swing the shotgun around at the same time I was trying to run through, so the miscreant got away and is still breathing at large. This caused my already epic paranoia level to skyrocket, so now I'm trying to find an alternate location to park my new grow tent and do a grow. So far, the best offer I have is to pay someone $100/month plus the difference between this year's and last year's electric bills. So that's not really palatable to me, lol.

Anyway, my initial impression is that it's a pretty good light - and a great one for the price. I love the perimeter reflector on it, that's the one suggestion I made when I got a couple SP-150s at the beginning of the year along with the new 39"x39" (Mars-Hydro ) tent.

I like that they leave the cooling solution up to the individual gardener instead of sticking some "computer type" fans on/in it (and charging a premium for doing so).

I did learn that, while with the TS series products and the SP-250 it's easy to move the power supply out of the grow space (just buy a longer cable, I think), it doesn't appear to be quite so straightforward with the SP-150. It can still be done, obviously, but could conceivably void the warranty, so I'll most likely wait until my SP-150s' warranties have expired before doing so.

Incidentally, I was browsing around the company's website the other day and learned that, if the customer does not want to (or cannot) perform any needed repair on their light and, instead, has to send it in to be repaired... Although they advertise their warranties as being for three years, well...

Notice: Within 3 months, we cover the shipping and repair charges. Among 3-12 months, you pay the shipping charges to repair centre. Among 12-36 months, you cover round-trip shipping charges, repair charges, and handling fee.

In other words, if the customer has to have them fix it, it's - effectively and practically - only a one-year warranty . Because they charge you coming, going, fixing... and a little bit more profit (aka "handling fee"), besides.

So it's not all sunny days and happy thoughts. Keep those components cool, LMAO. . . .

 

[Mayne]

dang, that sucks man, be safe..

I had 2 clones, put 1 under the 4000K and 1 under the 3000K, and the 4000k out stretched the 3000K, and it should of been the other way around, so theres that. and it was closer to the outtake exhaust, and was getting colder air then the other, but spectrum really isnt a huge meaning to the grow game to be honest. Its about intensity, and again, Lux shows that, IN THAT TENT, compared to itself, which is all that is needed.

I dont think your understanding what im sayin man..

Heck, i have 1 genetic, that will grow 3 inches a day with the light right on top of it, and another strain using the same light, that dont stretch at all.

My CBD i have growing showed sex, and better growth with under 10,000 lux since seed. Its growing so good, i topped it twice, showed sex in less then 20 days from germination. Unreal.. I put her back into veg mode, and plan to fill 3x3 scrog with her. Tomorrow she goes up to 13,000 lux..

The max lux i can use is 55,000 Lux, or about 850 par. But ive found thats wayyyy to much for my plants. That is the distance between gain and fall because of cob distance from eachother on my rig. think its like 16 inches. But ive found, around 500 PAR or 35,000 lux is my sweet spot for final weeks of flower.

So, now i know my max is 35,000 lux i want to use for the final 4 weeks of flower, about 2 weeks after the stretch.

So if im growing at 12/12 from seed, i know my genetics will take about 10 weeks, start to finish.
So, i take that 35,000 lux and divide by 2, so i have 17,500 Lux to use thru Veg, because I want flower to have 2 times the veg watts, but in our case, Lux, because we need a Baseline FOR OUR SETUP. Not anyone else, Just what can OUR lights, In OUR tent do intensity wise, Dont care about spectrum, dont care about none of that. I know 3000k and 4000K will grow good fruit.

Working backwards this is the certain program for my 12/12 from seed using my created genetics of FireOG/Lemon Thai cross, and my FireOG/Lemon Thai/ShipWreck Cross i created.


week 10- 17,500 Lux ( 4500K) (Flush) ( leaf strip)
Week9- 35,000 Lux ( flush 4 gallons RO, )
week8-35,000 Lux (400PPM Per week, 200MegaCrop+200mag)
week7-35,000 lux (400PPM Per week, 200MegaCrop+200Mag)
week6-22,000 lux (350PPM Per week, 150MegaCrop+200calmag)
week5-19,000 lux (300PPM Per week, 100MegaCrop+200Calmag)
week4-16,000 lux (200PPM per week, just calmag)
week3-13,000 lux (200PPM per week, just calmag)
week2-10,000 lux (200PPM per week, just calmag)
week1-7,000lux (200PPM ,of just calmag) Im on a Feed Water Water Feed schedule, because i use 2 gallon superroot pots and they dry out pretty quick, I have to add, i use Cocoloco, and its HOT out the bag. Today i ran off from first calmag watering, going in was 200PPM, coming out was 1,700PPM, so i know for at least 4 weeks, i should need any nutes, but will adjust if bottom leaves yellow by increments of 50PPM,

The premisis is, Use half of available total LUX for Veg, and the other half broken up for flower. Same as using a 200 watt light for veg, and a 400 watt light for flower.

As for the Mars ts, If i could get one, id definitely get one, just not in my budget right now. But id put 4 in a tent before spending $900 on HLGs stuff, thats for sure, no brainier.

 

[Grassmaster]

ok, i watched vid, and yeap, he hit it on the head.

seedlings need 5,000-10,000 lux 1-4 week veg, 20,000 Mid flower to finish, 35,000 lux is just great. The thing with the sun is, the plant matter is cooled, and doenst have a blanket of heat on it, like the LED would be, so the plant has to work double time to cool itself, then u get deficiencies, because the plant is using up Mag and potassium to keep herself cool,

I repaired my Lux meter. My phone app was off. To get it to match my meter I had to turn the phone app down from 2 to 1.3 Different cameras on phones so they have to be calibrated.

 

[Mayne]

how many watts is your Cob Rig Grassmaster?

 

[Mars Hydro]

LEX video kinda old, usually lux are for human and PAR is for plants, so now the mostly used way is to check the PPF and PPFD the light put out.

 

[Mayne]

we know that Sara, but not everyone can buy a PAR meter, that just converts LUX anyways, its a big LED community scam. I have done tests to confirm this also, so its not just me talking crap, PAR is great for the producers of the light for a Selling Point, but in little home grows, Lux meters work just fine, staying with the notion that LED growers burn their plants because they give them to much light, and thats a fact.

Intensity is intensity regardless of light, and Both the $153 PAR meter and the $30 Lux meter is just the same, The Lux degrades with distance, as does the PAR meter, at the same rate.

 

[TorturedSoul]

You've seen PAR meters for sale that cheaply? I don't know if I'd trust it (unless I could take it to the nearest college that possesses an integrating sphere and test it against their readings.

An Apogee MQ-500 (which seems to be a decent meter, with multiple sensor options and upgradeable firmware, IIRC) is generally going to sell for around $525, maybe slightly more, depending on the seller.

I'll have to respond to your previous post later, because it's a PITA to do more than a simple reply with no quote splitting on this cell phone, and I'm currently "parked" in the high weeds in my ghillie suit on thief watch. It was a well thought-out post, imho, and deserves more of a response than be up to without my laptop.

I heard someone say rape is worse than thievery. Now I've never suffered the former, so this is purely speculation, but: You end up feeling violated either way - but if it's only rape, lol, at least you get to keep your stuff. They BOTH should be considered to be capital crimes. . . .

 

[Grassmaster]

how many watts is your Cob Rig Grassmaster?

It will go to 440 watts when turned up all the way.

 

[Mayne]

You've seen PAR meters for sale that cheaply? I don't know if I'd trust it (unless I could take it to the nearest college that possesses an integrating sphere and test it against their readings.

An Apogee MQ-500 (which seems to be a decent meter, with multiple sensor options and upgradeable firmware, IIRC) is generally going to sell for around $525, maybe slightly more, depending on the seller.

I'll have to respond to your previous post later, because it's a PITA to do more than a simple reply with no quote splitting on this cell phone, and I'm currently "parked" in the high weeds in my ghillie suit on thief watch. It was a well thought-out post, imho, and deserves more of a response than be up to without my laptop.

I heard someone say rape is worse than thievery. Now I've never suffered the former, so this is purely speculation, but: You end up feeling violated either way - but if it's only rape, lol, at least you get to keep your stuff. They BOTH should be considered to be capital crimes. . . .

Be safe brother, and yes, i agree, we need eye for eye justice if you ask me.