Advanced Nutrients No PH Or PPM Testing?

TorturedSoul said:
I think you've got it backwards, lol.
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Then what? The big bad nutrient company is demanding that your hydro shop make a profit?

"No! You may not charge less than this amount! We demand that you make enough money to pay your bills and keep your doors open!"


WTF? Is that seriously what you're claiming Advanced Nutrients is doing?

Either you're saying that AN won't let them charge over a certain amount or under a certain amount (you've failed yet to be clear on which one). The first case is good for us, the second case just doesn't make sense except to protect the small hydro shops from getting screwed over by the big ones.

Remember how there used to be dozens and dozens of little general stores around? And then giant general stores like Wal-Mart figured out they could come in and price cut so low they were actually losing money, but that because they were really big and national they could do it in small local areas, drive the small businesses bankrupt, and then price fix to their heart's content?

And now we've just got Wal-Mart and a few others.


I'll bet you anything that IF (big if) what you're saying about AN making demands on their retail prices is true it's to protect small businesses, and thereby us. The retail price doesn't really matter to them in terms of money - they get paid wholesale price. So if they're worried about the retail price it can't be for selfish reasons.
 
hydroherb said:
Then what? The big bad nutrient company is demanding that your hydro shop make a profit?

"No! You may not charge less than this amount! We demand that you make enough money to pay your bills and keep your doors open!"


WTF? Is that seriously what you're claiming Advanced Nutrients is doing?
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Umm... No. If you'd go back and reread the other person's comment, and then yours, and then mine, you might realize that the other person was strongly inferring that AN sets a minimum price on their merchandise (for at least a portion of their retailers). And that, when you got the impression that he was inferring the opposite, I suggested that your impression probably wasn't what he meant.

hydroherb said:
Either you're saying that AN won't let them charge over a certain amount or under a certain amount (you've failed yet to be clear on which one).
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I actually thought it was pretty clearly stated in CBP420'ss post to begin with. When you got it backwards and I posted "I think you've got it backwards, lol," I thought that would have been all the clarification that you would need and therefore didn't make a lengthy post about it. But I made an assumption about you, and I apologize for doing so.

I wasn't personally suggesting that this behavior IS the case, only that that was what CBP420 was meaning. I have no proof one way or the other; only suggestions like the above that I've occasionally seen around when doing the odd Google search. For all I know it could be 100% true or 100% false. The only thing that I DO know is that such a practice is not unheard of in the retail market as a whole - I used to work at a place that lost its "Gold Vendor" status because its prices were set below the minimum.

I asked my "local" (only three hours away, lol) hydro store owner once if he'd consider carrying the brand so that I could try some of the products and he informed me that he had considered it and felt that the line was not for him. So I don't have a handy retailer that deals their stuff that I can ask about it.

Oh, when I pressed him, he said that it wasn't because their marketing/labels were slanted towards cannabis farmers (said that half his customers were cannabis farmers), but he wouldn't tell me what his reason was. So I have ZERO personal information. Might have been something as simple as he did not wish to provide a separate counter space for their line - I know Coke comes unglued if they see Pepsi in their coolers. <SHRUGS> Who knows?

Weird thing is that I've asked him to carry a few other brands - both before and afterwards - and he always got right on it. But that's neither here nor there.

I was going to PM the person who made the original suggestion, but his last activity date was either the date he posted the above or the day after.

hydroherb said:
I'll bet you anything that IF (big if) what you're saying about AN making demands on their retail prices is true it's to protect small businesses, and thereby us.
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Now that you mention it, in the (NOT cannabis-related) situation that I personally experienced, we would have been allowed to sell at lower prices had we guaranteed a larger yearly minimum order (Platinum-Vendors had a $120K/year buy, which we just couldn't make as ours was one of those Mom & Pop types). Which would seem to be protecting the larger businesses.
 
My understanding of AN is that they DO have a minimum advertised price policy as do many other companies in many businesses. It is also my understanding that they have "above average" margins.
MAP is an effort to curb discounting, but not for the exclusive benefit of the small shop. Often it is in effort to protect the preceived value of the product.

A pefect example are cables.

You can buy an excellent quality hdmi cable on ebay for 6 bucks. Now for me that makes a good quality HDMI cable worth 6 bucks. If I pay any more than that in the future, I better get some value added for my money.

now if I market the same cable, with some nice packaging and a HUGH advertising budget, making claims that your picture will be better and I want that cable to sell for 60 bucks.

I need to protect that products perceived value. To sell this snake oil, I need dealers. To get dealers to make room on their crowded shelves for this amazing new cable, I need to offer them a DEEP discount. So not only will they be improving the lives of their customers with this incredible product, they'll also make more profit.
Now this leaves your product open to discounters using your product as a loss leader and advertising your 60.00 super cable for 29.95. when your customers see this advertised multiple times, they start perceiving the value of that product at the lowest price they've seen. They will then automatically start lumping these monster cables into the same catagory of cheaper brands.

To the benefit of the retailer, If they keep feeding this marketing monster, it will continue to deliver customers to their store willing to pay a premium for their products with little need to discount. These customers are already convinced it's a premium product, they need little further enticement.

come to think of it a new episode of Futurama I saw last week took a shot at this type of marketing with MOM's eyephone. Actually they took a shoot at everything they could!

I have no problem with AN or this type of marketing, I just don't buy into it.
 
MAP pricing is counter to everything that the so called 'free market' is supposed to be.

My local golf shop lost its PING account for tossing in a free hat with a new complete setup for golf. This guy was buying new clubs, a bag, shoes and some other stuff and asked if they could throw in a free hat...Turns out this 'guy' was a secret shopper for PING and when the report got back to PING about the hat not be sold at MAP, the account was closed fro two years.

What is this world coming to when corporations have more power than everyone?
 
SnowBender said:
MAP pricing is counter to everything that the so called 'free market' is supposed to be.

My local golf shop lost its PING account for tossing in a free hat with a new complete setup for golf. This guy was buying new clubs, a bag, shoes and some other stuff and asked if they could throw in a free hat...Turns out this 'guy' was a secret shopper for PING and when the report got back to PING about the hat not be sold at MAP, the account was closed fro two years.

What is this world coming to when corporations have more power than everyone?
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Totally my point.
 
SnowBender said:
What is this world coming to when corporations have more power than everyone?
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We give them that power everytime we buy on price alone and not on value. Often the more expensive of two identical items can be less expensive in the long run if your dealer adds value with his selection, knowledge and service.

I purchased a fresca sol mail order as there were none available in town. I broke the glass one night and needed a replacement ASAP. We had a new shop in town that happened to have one on their shelf. They let me take the new one, ordered me glass for my old one and completely saved my ass. I then purchased the new one (not obligated) and they gave me a good price, but not what I paid for the first one. I now purchase everything I can from them, gladly pay their price and know they have my back if I need something.

I have a relationship with my local shop now and will never buy mail order again no matter how tempting the perceived savings might be.

It's also a good idea to keep in mind that MAP is minimum advertused price, not min sales price. It is still illegal to price fix. I doubt PING would penalize a good paying dealer. Stories like these are often given as cover for deeper problems in a business.

Just my .02 on the whole free mkt thing. Personally, I think the walmat-inization is the biggest problem with our economy.
 
I agree completely. Value is more important than price.

Price is still important, of course, but no amount of saving is worth getting crap. I mean if you could get a 52" flat screen for $5 that would only work for a day or two, you'd get really tired of replacing it all the time. By the same token you wouldn't spend 5 million on one regardless of how great it was.

If you buy the best thing you can afford you rarely end up with buyer's remorse.


WalMart and those other evil empires are systematically destroying everything but their own markets. Great if you want to buy cheap crap, but they push more and more of the high quality products out of business every year.

Think about it... if something is a premium product for its category, odds are pretty good that the company that makes it is small. If the company that sells it is huge, odds are they're cranking out mass-production at the expense of quality.
 
Just to be clear on what I said let me give you an example.
I go into my local hydro store and get some Big Bud and some Carbo Load, Prices marked on the lid and they add up to $150. OK, now usually my guy smiles and tells me my total is $131.70 including tax. I say great and give them some money, I leave happy and they are happy that they just sold $131.70 worth of product.

Now when I walk into my local hydro store that same transaction would cost $164.63 including tax. I ask why the prices went up and I am not getting my loyal customer discount. They proceed to tell me that AN will remove the line if they give discounts on AN products. While Big Mike tells his BS about the "Good 'ol Boys" and how he is combating the business practices that he is now employing.

I could care less about how someone does business, It's really not up to me. What I am upset about and can not get my head around is the hypocritical behavior that Big Mike and AN follow. I have even approached them about this and they say to throw in free stuff to go around the no discount policy. Complete BS and very hypocritical. This is one opinion out of many I am sure, but I do spend a lot at the Hydro store as I manage a few grows.
 
That's price fixing and it is illegal. If this comes to the attention of the proper regulatory agency. Big mike will have some big problems. If he shut down a business I owned for this reason he would hear from my attorney in a ny minute.

MAP is a careful dance around the laws but only can address just that, what u can advertise, not what u can sell for.
 
Hi,

I am an AN user (grandmaster level) I have used the old formula of AN (pre ph perfect) and the new formula and I can safely say the new formula works much better and it really does keep your PH in check. There are a few products from AN (piranaha and Tarrantula I suspect) that causes your PH to rise during the first few days after a reservoir change. The new formula is much more stable. I have never had to adjust my ph more then .5 with the new formula. Plus everything is now more concentrated so I use less then before.

It is not cheap to run the full GrandMaster lineup but it is actually cheaper now to use the full AN lineup then it was even 6 months ago because everything is more concentrate.


I cant comment on yeild vs another brand but I can surely say that the new AN formula is more stable then the old formula. Its not just hype it works.
 
WarBux79 said:
Hi,

I am an AN user (grandmaster level) I have used the old formula of AN (pre ph perfect) and the new formula and I can safely say the new formula works much better and it really does keep your PH in check. There are a few products from AN (piranaha and Tarrantula I suspect) that causes your PH to rise during the first few days after a reservoir change. The new formula is much more stable. I have never had to adjust my ph more then .5 with the new formula. Plus everything is now more concentrated so I use less then before.

It is not cheap to run the full GrandMaster lineup but it is actually cheaper now to use the full AN lineup then it was even 6 months ago because everything is more concentrate.


I cant comment on yeild vs another brand but I can surely say that the new AN formula is more stable then the old formula. Its not just hype it works.
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Sweet! I was really hoping it would live up to the hype. I was going to try it anyway but it's good to know I won't be taking any major risks.

Question for ya... you said you adjusted pH .5 at the most. Did you ever test their claim that they've expanded the "sweet spot" for pH? Supposedly it works in a massive range now without lockouts or burning. It's supposed to be the combination of enhanced stability and that bigger sweet spot that make it so you don't have to adjust pH at all.
 
Guys before the conversation turns into a debate about marketing practices, can i slip a question in? :P

So I have been checking out AN's new Bigger Yields Ph perfect bundles: Hobbyist, Pro, etc...
you get Voodoo Juice, Big Bud, B52 and Overdrive with the Hobbyist level, when you get the Pro bundle, will you still get the products from Hobbyist along with those from Professional? or do you just get the 3 products from Pro?
 
CannaRebel said:
Guys before the conversation turns into a debate about marketing practices, can i slip a question in? :P

So I have been checking out AN's new Bigger Yields Ph perfect bundles: Hobbyist, Pro, etc...
you get Voodoo Juice, Big Bud, B52 and Overdrive with the Hobbyist level, when you get the Pro bundle, will you still get the products from Hobbyist along with those from Professional? or do you just get the 3 products from Pro?
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If I'm not mistaken the bundles are designed to build off each other. So the Hobbyist bundle is the one that comes with the base nutes and the Pro bundle doesn't. So it stacks with the Hobbyist bundle. I'd say I'm like 99% sure that's the way it works.
 
hydroherb said:
It actually is possible to have a self-balancing solution... nothing really radical there. Any decent hydroponic solution sold now has some buffering agents in it designed to resist changes to the pH of a solution outside a specific range.

What's impressive in their claims is that they're saying it works over the long term.

I'm skeptical, but what they're talking about isn't beyond the scope of science, ESPECIALLY if the real trick is in chelation.

Plants like a specific pH range, right? But why? It's not the pH that's the most important, it's the availability of the nutrients. There's only a narrow band where all the necessary nutrients are chemically available. Too high or two low and you get pH lockout, right?

Well if you chelate one of the nutrients the pH it's available at expands. If you do that with all of them suddenly it's not so bad for the pH to be higher or lower than it ought to be.


That's what I'm betting they've done here... packed in chelates out the wazoo so that sure, your pH is 5 or 7 or whatever, but the plant is still happy as a lark because nothing is locked out. Do that with the right buffers to keep things from going nuts and you could conceivably build a nutrient that doesn't need monitored.
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Actually I think your exactly right what I read is as long as your source water is between 4.8-8.5 i believe then when mixed it will be perfect for your plants all they have done is make sure that if the nutrients are mixed into water in that range then the solution will not be acidic or alkaline enough to burn the roots off but as said the key is chelating for the ph perfect part.

But the ppm perfect thing intrigues me I believe they are more or less just using a weaker strength of nutrient but by using differnt types of nitrogen,phosphorus etc etc they can feed smaller amounts of each to obtain the same result. Sort of like when we eat a meal that has all we need in it but it requires you to eat a huge steak ,potatoes ,couple differnt vegetables ,some fruit for desert etc you get super stuffed or over nutriated but by eating smaller amounts of food that contain multiple sources of required nutrition you can eat less and be far more healthy and not ever feel like you ate to much . I basically think this is how they make the ppm perfect work use lots of sources of different nutrients in smaller amounts so the plant can get a bit of everything it needs at all times and never be hungry or overfed .
 
This is actually a reasonable conversation....thank goodness.

As with any product, make sure you do your research. I mean, every company has marketing teams that try to sway you, but you need to look at the facts, read the reviews, and see what the company does for its growers.

Oh, and then you need to actually use the nutes to see if they work or not. You can't completely discount anything until you try it out.

Advanced Nutrients wins on all accounts, in my book.
 
Hi guys so basically this is a perfect 3 part base nutrients for beginners that want to do a hydro grow without the hassle of working out ppm's and maintaining a stable ph level without the risk of lockout?
 
smokey1507 said:
Hi guys so basically this is a perfect 3 part base nutrients for beginners that want to do a hydro grow without the hassle of working out ppm's and maintaining a stable ph level without the risk of lockout?
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Exactly. It's not the greatest idea to grow without a ppm meter, but you can use this without the pH meter for sure.

The base nutrients alone are somewhat less stable than if you run the Hobbyist bundle as well, but there's "stable" and then there's "more stable" and where "stable enough for me" lands within that range varies from grower to grower.

I would recommend that if you don't have a ppm meter you grow at no more than 75% of the recommended strength on your nutes, to play it safe. Also, since you probably aren't running RO water, see if you can get a good ppm reading of whatever water you will be using, so you know how hard it is.

The biggest problem you're likely to have is that without a pH meter to double check with, and without running RO water, you may not be able to achieve the pH Perfect benefits. It's only guaranteed to work with RO water because unless they know exactly what is in the water they can't be certain their method of maintaining the ideal pH will work. Some people with 200ppm water have no problems, some people with 60ppm can't get it to stay stable. But everyone with RO has no trouble.


Short version: if you're using RO, it works just fine without any checking of pH or ppm. If not, results could be the same or they could be not so great. It's hard to say.
 
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HERE YOU ARE GUYS!!! THE ANSWERS TO ALL QUESTIONS CONCERNING ADVANCED NUTS. :thumb:

I m gonna try them and see if they work.
 
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