3rd grow going poorly please help

[Roy Growin]

His plants are clearly dying and you want him to rug his shoulders and call it a day? They need better watering practice and a pH balanced complete plant food in low dose say 0.3-0.4 EC / 150-200ppm. My two cents.

Clearly dying? Don't think so, they don't look dead to me
OP came here for opinions, all of which are valid
Up to @Jongavin1 what sounds right for him/her
Let's not hijack the thread discussing whether internet videos are the best place to become informed

 

[Wastei]

First, I see no reference to mostly soilless, other than your assumption that this is so. @Jongavin1 said that he is re-using soil, with added compost.

Making assumptions like this without all the facts could wreck a grow. Since we are not using coco, any reference to using runoff is totally off base. Runoff measurements out of soil are meaningless and should not be encouraged.

Quotes from Bugbee don't help to convince me. He is a paid scientist employed by a light company, certainly not an independent scientist and as far as far red and UV, I feel the real world has already moved way beyond the experiments he did years ago, although they keep being rehashed over and over again on the forums. As far as his expertise in soil goes... he has none and should not have even been mentioned here.

It's not wise talking shit about Dr.Bruce Bugbee on a Cannabis forum, heads up

Quote:

Bruce Bugbee is an American scientist. His work includes research into space farming with NASA and at Utah State University, where he is the Director of the Crop Physiology Laboratory

 

[Wastei]

sorry... clearly dying? With intact green cotyledons? They look pretty healthy to me.
Shrug his shoulders and call it a day? Did I say that? I tried to explain why they have stalled, and pointed him to the best guide to a better watering practice that I know of.

Sidepoint... what is a pH balanced plant food?

Agree to disagree. I think OP has all the info he needs to sort his problems in this thread and references to a scientist who's work is very explanatory and useful to the grower and the whole Cannabis Community.

He's done more for this industry than most. His data, degree and references are all real, point referenced and checked by other scientists.

A pH balanced complete plant food contains the 16 different essential minerals in readily available form for plant to uptake and is able to keep pH of the medium in range until next watering/feeding. It's not more complicated than that.

Clearly dying? Don't think so, they don't look dead to me
OP came here for opinions, all of which are valid
Up to @Jongavin1 what sounds right for him/her
Let's not hijack the thread discussing whether internet videos are the best place to become informed

Who's talking about internet videos? I'm referencing Dr. Bruce Bugbee?

 

[BeccaBuds]

It's pretty easy to make a strong argument that reused soil needs to be re-amended (and given time to cook). Cannabis is a heavy feeder and can drain all the nutrients out a 10 gallon pot in one crop in ideal conditions. If you don't re-pot in fresh soil, do a pH balanced fertilize w/ a Cal-Mag additive... and drain well after.

 

[Emilya Green]

We will be waiting for years for the scientific community to catch up with the advances we "un-real" basement scientists have made over the last decade. Bugbee or any of the others have not done research into the use of trigger lights or the proper use of far red or UV light, because the industry has not funded this research. I have personally done more research into these areas than any published scientist, so excuse me while I chuckle about this blind devotion given to this guy. Sure, Bugbeen is a legend... but the world continues to move on and he needs to follow up with some of the work being done out here in the trenches in the cannabis world. There is more credible information and new ideas out here to be explored, such as how I have pretty much eliminated excessive stretch and have effectively increased my grow period by 2 hours per day using specially timed far red lights. Bugbeen so far can only tell us that there is an Emmerson effect from far red. I am confident that he will catch up... when Apogee decides they want to use trigger lighting in their products. Sometimes real science has to be done away from the constraints and limited funding of the corporate world.

Anyway... nice spirited discussion, and you are right, @Jongavin1 will now have to decide which way to go with this. There of course can only be one gardener... the one that is standing right there. Good luck @Jongavin1 and please let us know how this goes.

 

[Emilya Green]

It's pretty easy to make a strong argument that reused soil needs to be re-amended (and given time to cook). Cannabis is a heavy feeder and can drain all the nutrients out a 10 gallon pot in one crop in ideal conditions. If you don't re-pot in fresh soil, do a pH balanced fertilize w/ a Cal-Mag additive... and drain well after.

I reuse fox farm ocean forest at least twice before phasing it out of my gardens. And especially if you are using external nutrients during most of a grow, how "used" do you think that soil really gets? As a holder for the plants, soil could be reused without harm many times and without depleting its vital nutrients. And again, please explain what a pH balanced fertilizer is?? I know of no such thing.

 

[BeccaBuds]

buffered to the needed pH to make the nutrients available to the plant. dah

 

[BeccaBuds]

outta hear. guess why?

 

[Emilya Green]

buffered to the needed pH to make the nutrients available to the plant. dah

really? who does that? Is that what you are using? Nutrients are always acidic. Adding them to your water drives the pH down and you need to use a pH up product to bring the pH back into the usable range... the range where the chelated elements in the nutrient mix are able to be released from their bonds and become mobile within the soil. There are NO pH neutral nutrients out there. There are some that don't need to use a specific range of pH to become available, such as veganic nutrient systems using amino acids to chelate the nutrients.

 

[Jongavin1]

really? who does that? Is that what you are using? Nutrients are always acidic. Adding them to your water drives the pH down and you need to use a pH up product to bring the pH back into the usable range... the range where the chelated elements in the nutrient mix are able to be released from their bonds and become mobile within the soil. There are NO pH neutral nutrients out there. There are some that don't need to use a specific range of pH to become available, such as veganic nutrient systems using amino acids to chelate the nutrients.

i appreciate all the help from everybody these are not autos I’m going to try some calmag when they’re ready for another feeding but other than the ph/ soil being wrong I don’t know what could be causing this slow/ not at all growth problem I’ve been very cautious with my waterings until I did a flush yesterday to try and help with nutrient lockout

 

[SmokingWings]

they grew good for about a week but now they’re showing all kinds of problems like yellowing and possibly nutrient lockout?

I do not see any problems at this time, certainly nothing to worry about. At most it looks like one seedling lost a cotyledon and another has a tip or two turning brown on the single blade leaves. Certainly nothing indicating a problem.

It would help if we knew why you think there is a 'possible nutrient lockout'. What happened in the last two weeks that made you feel that this could now be a problem?

might’ve used too much peat moss in my soil or something

There are mixes specifically for seed starting that are 50% or more sphagnum peat moss so there should be no problem at this time with your own personal mix. @Emilya Green mentions that she re-uses her soil and many of us do the same to one degree or another. It is not as if the soil can get any older than it already is at several billion years. Mix up a decent batch of soil and it will last a lifetime with not much more than some replacement of the organic materials as those are consumed by the micro-organisms.

The only thing that might be going on is what is common to so many growers. We check on the seedling several times during the day and our imaginations start to control what we are seeing. The next day our imagination leads us to thinking we have new problems.

We water to often or we become afraid of watering too often and let it dry out. We think the soil ran out of nutrients so we dump some of everything on and water it in. The list goes on. Sit back and relax.

 

[Jongavin1]

I do not see any problems at this time, certainly nothing to worry about. At most it looks like one seedling lost a cotyledon and another has a tip or two turning brown on the single blade leaves. Certainly nothing indicating a problem.

It would help if we knew why you think there is a 'possible nutrient lockout'. What happened in the last two weeks that made you feel that this could now be a problem?


There are mixes specifically for seed starting that are 50% or more sphagnum peat moss so there should be no problem at this time with your own personal mix. @Emilya Green mentions that she re-uses her soil and many of us do the same to one degree or another. It is not as if the soil can get any older than it already is at several billion years. Mix up a decent batch of soil and it will last a lifetime with not much more than some replacement of the organic materials as those are consumed by the micro-organisms.

The only thing that might be going on is what is common to so many growers. We check on the seedling several times during the day and our imaginations start to control what we are seeing. The next day our imagination leads us to thinking we have new problems.

We water too often or we become afraid of watering too often and let it dry out. We think the soil ran out of nutrients so we dump some of everything on and water it in. The list goes on. Sit back and relax.

My step father has 2 of the same seeds going in different soil and they look infinitely better than mine and he planted them after me. mine have been the same size for about a week I gave them the recommended floraflex seedling nutes expecting them to soak it up and put some dark green back into the leaves. But nothing hence me thinking they can’t absorb the nutes because of ph or something.

 

[SmokingWings]

I still think that you are over-think what is going on. Because you step-father used different soil does not mean that yours is bad or it needs anything. He might be placing his Dixie cups in a different spot so the plants gets a little less sun. Now his plants are stretching a bit to get a bit more sunlight so they are larger.

At the most, at this time, I would do something along the lines of what @Roy Growin mentions and add a liquid Kelp mixture the next necessary watering or sprinkle some Kelp Meal on the soil and let the micro-organisms do their part.

 

[Emilya Green]

i appreciate all the help from everybody these are not autos I’m going to try some calmag when they’re ready for another feeding but other than the ph/ soil being wrong I don’t know what could be causing this slow/ not at all growth problem I’ve been very cautious with my waterings until I did a flush yesterday to try and help with nutrient lockout

Your plants are not using much calcium at the moment and if you were needing magnesium we would see clear signs of that on your leaves. You don't "need" extra cal or mag at the moment, but adding it in maintenance amounts is not going to hurt anything. Will it make your plants grow faster? I doubt it.

Watering this weed, either too much or not enough, is the most common problem in the gardening world. Watering this weed is not intuitive, because it doesn't want regular and abundant water... you need to starve this plant of water to make her grow rapidly. If you coddle her, she will get lazy. If you don't force her to grow roots, she will not do so aggressively. It is all about how many roots you grow and how dense they become as to how much product your plant will be able to produce.

Between waterings, you need that soil to get as dry as the sahara desert. If you pick up the cup, your human senses should not be able to feel ANY water weight in there at all, as compared to a similar cup filled with dry soil. It is better to let your plant start to wilt, and then water her, than it is to water too often. When you do finally water, you should carefully soak that soil like it were a sponge, seeing just how much water you can get that soil to hold before producing runoff. After this, let the plant work on that water for however many days it takes to get to the totally dry point again. At first it will take 5-7 days, but then the roots grow stronger. The next wet dry cycle will only be 3-4 days... and then more roots grow. Pretty soon, your plant will be able to drain the container of every bit of water, in 36-24 hours. When this has happened, you have filled your container with dense roots and you are ready to transplant into a 3x larger container to start the wet/dry cycle again.

The more devoted you are to growing dense roots in each stage before moving on, the bigger, healthier and better producing plant you will end up with. You have to work to create a solid rootball. It doesnt happen naturally, it is the direct result of proper watering.

 

[Keffka]

Agreed with every thing @Emilya Green said with tact and candor even in the face of blatant sexism and disrespect.

Bugbee doesn’t belong being tossed around as some sort of definitive answer to anything by the majority of home growers. He is running in a highly synthetic environment with equipment and materials most home growers won’t ever come close to. His findings don’t apply to Joe 6 pack in the backyard with solo cups. Not to mention, they’re quickly becoming outdated and profit driven. They’re useful as a reference, not the final word. Especially if we’re talking soil.

OP I see a plastic bin next to your solo cups. Are you placing that bin over the cups? Does it have plenty of holes drilled into it if you are? You could be choking off oxygen and causing your plants to stop transpiring otherwise which would limit your growth severely and cause the stunting and compaction signs you’re seeing.

 

[Jongavin1]

Agreed with every thing @Emilya Green said with tact and candor even in the face of blatant sexism and disrespect.

Bugbee doesn’t belong being tossed around as some sort of definitive answer to anything by the majority of home growers. He is running in a highly synthetic environment with equipment and materials most home growers won’t ever come close to. His findings don’t apply to Joe 6 pack in the backyard with solo cups. Not to mention, they’re quickly becoming outdated and profit driven. They’re useful as a reference, not the final word. Especially if we’re talking soil.

OP I see a plastic bin next to your solo cups. Are you placing that bin over the cups? Does it have plenty of holes drilled into it if you are? You could be choking off oxygen and causing your plants to stop transpiring otherwise which would limit your growth severely and cause the stunting and compaction signs you’re seeing.

No holes but I make sure the bottom of it is propped up so air can blow through I’ll post pictures of my step fathers much younger and healthier plants compared to mine on my lunch break the only variable is the soil we’re using and the solo cups. I’m letting the girls dry out and then going to try the kelp/ seaweed thing

 

[Emeraldo]

@Jongavin1 you certainly have lots of interesting answers to read through...

I've looked at your OP and photos. Your plants are NOT dying, so no worries there. Yes, there is a bit of yellowing, but I'm not sure why you think it's a lockout.

Seedlings at about 3 weeks invariably show they need food. The are starting to demand Nitrogen. Even more than N, they need Phosphorus and Potassium. All the more so because you are using depleted soil. Did you amend it?

You haven't said much about how you are feeding. If they were mine (and you can look at how my 3-weekers are doing in my current journal at the top of my signature), I would give those seedlings some flowering food, yes, flowering food which at about 3-9-4 has the perfect nutrient mix for seedlings this age. Just work a tsp into the soil before you water.

@Phytoplankton's comment makes a lot of sense. You will have to repot the seedlings soon. They can't stay in the solo cups much longer, and what better occasion to put them into some rich new soil? You could mix up your own, or maybe buy high quality commercial soil like FoxfARM Ocean Forest?

If'n it was me, I'd go buy some fresh soil and repot those babies in it. Why bother chasing unknown problems, and play the too much/not enough game. Start with good fresh soil and keep it simple.

 

[Jongavin1]

@Jongavin1 you certainly have lots of interesting answers to read through...

I've looked at your OP and photos. Your plants are NOT dying, so whoever made that wasteful comment should imho apologise! Yes, there is a bit of yellowing, but I'm not sure why you think it's a lockout.

Seedlings at about 3 weeks invariably show they need food. The are starting to demand Nitrogen. Even more than N, they need Phosphorus and Potassium. All the more so because you are using depleted soil. Did you amend it?

You haven't said much about how you are feeding. If they were mine (and you can look at how my 3-weekers are doing in my current journal at the top of my signature), I would give those seedlings some flowering food, yes, flowering food which at about 3-9-4 has the perfect nutrient mix for seedlings this age. Just work a tsp into the soil before you water.

I did not amend the soil I had the same issues last year I’m using floraflex as my nutrients they’ve got a whole line up for everything from seedlings to harvest I’ve been following there low dose feed schedule because they’re baby’s.

 

[Emilya Green]

I think that people tend to uppot way too early. That solo cup is going to be your last best chance to develop a tight solid rootball. There is no harm in leaving the plant in the solo cup until her roots start running out of room, and these plants are not even close to filling that cup. When that happens you will start to see complaints from the lower fan leaves, but again, that is not happening. The leaves extending over the edges of the cup, or spotting some roots coming out of the bottom holes are not valid reasons to uppot. I use the wet/dry cycle to tell me when it is time to transplant, because I can clearly see by the water use when the roots are still rapidly growing, and I can see when we reach the point of diminishing returns, when the roots are able to first drain that cup in a day or so. If you wait much longer than this, the plant's water use actually slows down as the roots start getting in each other's way. If you hurry up and move to a larger container before this has happened, you lose a lot of the control you had in forcing those roots to grow, and growth will slow down. It is a shame to move to a bigger container and watch her just sit there, growing very slowly for a time, when a solid rootball from the previous stage will immediately leap into action trying to fill that new space... and the plant above will be rapidly growing too. It is all about the roots and how you manage them, while you still can.

Regarding feeding, I am a proponent of feeding hard and feeding early so I agree with everyone's comments about feeding and it sounds like you are following the directions for the feed you are using. I don't see any deficiencies, but I do think your plants could take advantage of more food if you gave it. As far as the slow growth goes, I still think it is your watering practices causing this. Please tell me how much do you water when you do water, and how do you determine that it is time to water? Are you alternating giving nutes one time and plain pH adjusted water the next time?

 

[Jongavin1]

I think that people tend to uppot way too early. That solo cup is going to be your last best chance to develop a tight solid rootball. There is no harm in leaving the plant in the solo cup until her roots start running out of room, and these plants are not even close to filling that cup. When that happens you will start to see complaints from the lower fan leaves, but again, that is not happening. The leaves extending over the edges of the cup, or spotting some roots coming out of the bottom holes are not valid reasons to uppot. I use the wet/dry cycle to tell me when it is time to transplant, because I can clearly see by the water use when the roots are still rapidly growing, and I can see when we reach the point of diminishing returns, when the roots are able to first drain that cup in a day or so. If you wait much longer than this, the plant's water use actually slows down as the roots start getting in each other's way. If you hurry up and move to a larger container before this has happened, you lose a lot of the control you had in forcing those roots to grow, and growth will slow down. It is a shame to move to a bigger container and watch her just sit there, growing very slowly for a time, when a solid rootball from the previous stage will immediately leap into action trying to fill that new space... and the plant above will be rapidly growing too. It is all about the roots and how you manage them, while you still can.

Regarding feeding, I am a proponent of feeding hard and feeding early so I agree with everyone's comments about feeding and it sounds like you are following the directions for the feed you are using. I don't see any deficiencies, but I do think your plants could take advantage of more food if you gave it. As far as the slow growth goes, I still think it is your watering practices causing this. Please tell me how much do you water when you do water, and how do you determine that it is time to water? Are you alternating giving nutes one time and plain pH adjusted water the next time?

I’ve been watering about once every 2-3 days because it’s getting warm out here I like to pick up the cups and see how light they are before watering just to make sure not to over water plain ph water twice then nutes when I feed nutes I bottom feed