300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

OK, a bit baked, so let's see..................oh yeah, an update

the LED plants:

the HID plants:

I flushed them very thoroughly again with straight tap water followed by a couple of gallons of tap water PH'ed to 6.0.

The last time I flushed them, I followed up with a couple of gallons of rainwater with 5ml of Cal-Mag, and they did fine with that, but I think my initial problems were completely due to not thoroughly rinsing and flushing the coco before using it, not my tap water, so I've gone back to watering with tap water PH'ed to 6.0, which takes 2ml per gallon of GH PH-down, so that's a cinch. Ok, that was a long sentence, lol.

What I've noticed as far as differences between the groups is that since I since I went to the HPS bulb, the HID plants have stretched just a little more, but also bushed out a lot. I wouldn't say they necessarily have more biomass than the LED plants, however, because the stems on the LED plants, both main and branches, are slightly thicker than the HID plants, and just subjectively, the LED plants look and feel "heavier" to me than the HID plants.

The foliage on the LED plants is lusher, the leaves a little larger and thicker. The HID leaves feel thinner, although not papery or anything like that. It's just a small but noticeable difference, as are all the differences between the groups at this point in the grow.

I didn't look very carefully, but I though I saw a few pistils tonight, so things should get interesting soon.

Do cloned plants generally go into bloom faster than from-seed plants when you flip them, or is it about the same?

for following and sorry for my ramblin

 

[Troublesome2]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I would say that a clone would go into flower quicker than a seed being as the clone is as far along in life as its mother as soon as its rooted and flipped to 12/12 it will flower quickly... Im no expert but just my opinion

 

[Tyrone Hamilton]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

-----

Here's a nice graph I made from the chart data that puts the above into focus (HPS PAR vs. Sunlight as a Function of Distance):

(Click to enlarge pics so the text isn't all fuzzy - wide graph!)

The bold red line at 100% (y-axis) shows where Full Natural Sunlight PAR is crossed from increasing/decreasing distance.

I had to cap the y-axis at 300% so there was still sufficient delineation at lower irradiances/higher distances, so the first point of the graph shows the HPS at 9" away (263% x PAR of Natural Sunlight), and almost ~13x light saturation levels!

<Bloody Hell...>

Dogsnova mentioned 12" as being a good distance. For this light, we get roughly:

148% of Full Sun PAR and 21,392 foot-candles! (more than 2x that of full sunlight!). That's still a heck of a lot of light - and realistically, probably a good upper limit, if plants can be kept relatively short, also. Maybe 10" in a pinch, but that's pushing it. Hope the plants don't make any sudden moves at that level--!
----

Again, real-world levels might be a bit lower from various losses. Measuring directly under the light with a quality light meter would be better, but these might be useful as a 'rule-of-thumb', for grows using Enhanced Spectrum HPS and Electronic Ballasts - which are becoming more of the norm nowadays.


Hope that helps...enjoy! :icon_cool


Regards,

-TL

Man, Lurker... posts like these are why I nommed you for MOM!

This is also why I went vertical CMH...

 

[Tyrone Hamilton]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Nice video SS! I hope you do more of them in the future... this way I don't have to make up a voice in my head for you...

On the clones vs. seed in 12/12 - I noticed my clones were starting to shoot pistils even before the switch to 12/12... I think they were so old that they just could not wait! They are much further along than any seed grow I've done after two weeks 12/12, but I've never flowered plants after they've sat in solo cups for three months either until now.

 

[Dexter4Morgan]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Have you tried using rainwater exclusively and no tap water ? I save rainwater for my garden plants and flowers and it helps. I have 60 gallons in garage right now I'm saving for my grow.

What is the PH of plain rainwater? Don't have a tester yet but I'm curious.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

thanks bel,

and that's independent of the amount of veg time the clones get before they're flipped?

 

[dogsnova]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Very interesting observations dog, thanks for posting them.

I experienced the results of having this LED light too low on the Sunset Kush grow, so I appreciate what you're saying about not going too low, or even raising up to a height that won't damage the flowers.

It's hard for me to keep the LED light at 19-20", but much lower and the leaves start to fold, and the plants have excellent growth and don't show any stretching due to lack of intensity.

SS my bad, I was referring to the HPS side... Sorry if any confusion...

The LED side has 90 degree lenses.. Much different focal point IMO.. That light can get away with it being 18" or so off the canopy..

I think the 400w HPS side will lack some of it's punch so to speak at 18" to 20" off the canopy...

This is funny........ I'm defending a dinosaur HID...lol...

Just so everyone knows... I own one of Mikes 300w led light purchased at full price... For my garden and my med needs.... I will take Mikes led light hands down..

I've used an air cooled 400w HPS in a 34" x 34" area for the past 5 years. Spent the first three years making it as efficient as I possibly could ..lol (BS HID heat problems).... Used Mikes light once and damn near hit the best yield ever for me and my patients from that space. Needless to say the HPS and all it's awesome heat and glory are no longer welcome in my garden....

I will say I'm surprised that those HID girls are not stretching as much as one would think...

SS dose that strain just about double in size when flowered under HID like most of today's hybrids do, or is this the first time you've seen this strain flowering under HID?

Nice observation on the leaves being thicker and the stems being thicker on the LED side.... I got the same result.. It translated into thicker/denser flowers as well.. I'm quite sure it will do the same for your strain..

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

It depends on the age of the mother, but in general, clones will go into bloom faster due to the mother's ripeness to respond. If the seedlings have grown enough to be competent, they will show sex under veg and then evocation will happen right after the flip, if not, you have a built in delay due to the juvenile nature of the seedlings. The older the mother, the more mature the clones.

b

he's right SS. if the mom that was cut was further along then yes she will flower faster, its all depends on how long u veg ur seeds for to see the flowering. they wont flower until their old enough.


i am very curios to see witch light flowers 1st or if at the same time? The HID plants do seem more bushy, might lead to some good light penetration since their more open up. but the led plants look more lush to me, not to sure why this is?

i am shocked ur HID hasn't stretched more at this point and time? either u have a short strain? or u have a kick ass bulb?

 

[MedScientist]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I was thinking some more about this today.

It gets complicated, lol. It's difficult to compare dissimilar technologies and keep things fair.

If I'm able to drop the HID light lower than the LED light, it's going to be mostly because it's air-cooled, and that puts the LED light at a disadvantage.

or am I missing something?

They both require the same ventilation setup to manage heat, but the HID light needs additional measures taken in order to be used at all, so it doesn't seem fair to use the benefit of air-cooling to drop the HID light down lower, when that benefit is a consequence of having to compensate for a weakness.

you know what I'm sayin', lol

I do understand what you are saying..

My 2 cents... just my opinion... but you ARE doing a comparison between the 2 technologies... so I believe you should try to maximize your results from each light? The results will be more trustworthy if you did everything to maximize yeilds on Both sides independantly. If the HID can handle being closer to the canopy.. then so be it... Just as you are doing everything you can to get the best yeild from the LED's. If you were comparing to CFL's, I would expect to see them within a few inches for max effectiveness. I've seen HID/LED comparison grows where the HID side yeilded under 0.3 g/w, which just isnt right or average, and should not be used to "compare". I know what to expect from the HID in a Cool Tube, so Your results WILL help in our analysis, but....

I would LOVE for you to get close to 1 g/w from the HID.... Then smash that yeild with the LED!

Good Luck +rep

 

[Propa Gator]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

What is the PH of plain rainwater? Don't have a tester yet but I'm curious.

Should be neutral [pH 7.0] or slightly acidic, depending on the local atmospheric CO2 load.

And sulfur dioxide from not-so clean coal technology. Little goes a long way.
My EC meter couldn't pick up anything to measure in some rainwater I had. Needs cal/mag

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

speaking of rain, I'm collecting some more right now.

the ppm of rain coming off my roof after it's been raining for a few hours is 32.

I'm using big tubs, buckets, etc., but I really want one of these:

now that would last me through a few grows

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

No such thing as a touchy subject, just touchy people.

I meet very few people who can discuss most things dispassionately, but you're right.

In my capacity as 'The Minister of Genetic Information' I am a regular recipient of either gifts of seeds or clones to the Ministry, or donations [rescues] to the orphanage. This particular plant is Blue Odyssey [BD X Odyssey], one of the results of impulse buying by a collective member, who knows that I'm partial to Blue Dream.

I'm very partial to Blue Dream also. It's an amazing strain. It gains the beautiful blue rock-hard Blueberry nugs, but the effect, IMO, is almost all haze, and the aroma and flavor are just so dang good. I haven't grown it, yet

These clones were from Coffeeshop Blue Sky in Oaktown. This clone was put into my mothership as I always snip a few clones and spike them in the floratorium to do a smoke check in order to see who stays and who goes. My mothers are under 16/8 and this clone flipped under that regimen. So I put her into the flower room and this is what she looked like four weeks into 12/12.

maybe some ruderalis got in her jeans?

or she's just an outlier?

does that make her more desirable to you or less?

I don't necessarily have a predilection for the color, but it seems to have one for me.
Pick the most mite and mold resistant females, breed as necessary to get what else you need, and you end up with purple plants.

I'm not sure I would end up with purple plants, lol, but I sure do admire yours.

So, yes, I do believe that there is some sort of loose correlation between purples and potency, there may be weak ones out there but they don't run in my circles.

good to know that beauty and function aren't mutually exclusive in the pursuit of the ideal .

As far as psychoactivety goes, I'm psycho and hyperactive, so I'm probably not the best one to ask on that, the aesthetics are nice but not necessary, I like reds and golds just as much.

aesthetics *are* nice, but they all look the same once that flame hits them

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Mr Sun, do you compromise your noise tolerance for that fan? I heard it
Video don't lie, sounds and works like mine. Well

It's nowhere near as loud as it sounds in that video. This camera has adjustable mike sensitivity and a switchable wind filter, so I need to play with those. I think the way it's set up right now amplifies things.

Trust me, I hate noise. I won't compromise on that because it would make growing much less enjoyable for me. If a fan gets noisy and I can't fix it, it's done .

Right now, I'm running both tents and my cab, so three S&P exhaust fans and three circulation fans, plus the fans on the LED light, and the noise level is tolerable, but I wouldn't want it much louder.

It's *much* quieter when I duct the exhausts into the attic, but it's getting colder and I need the exhaust to keep my garage warm, which is working well. On the previous LED comparison grow in cold weather, I had to use a 1500w radiant heater to keep my garage warm. That sucked, lol.

If you pushed the girls a bit more into the corners, you could drop a 250 right down in there

I believe I've heard that Propa-sition before, and you know I'm dying to .

Your DR80s are so much better than my IKEA conversions, 250 vert perfect IM(not so)HO!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I would say that a clone would go into flower quicker than a seed being as the clone is as far along in life as its mother as soon as its rooted and flipped to 12/12 it will flower quickly... Im no expert but just my opinion

thank you Troublesome, I appreciate the feedback!

Nice video SS! I hope you do more of them in the future... this way I don't have to make up a voice in my head for you...

That voice was heavily processed for security purposes. I actually sound like Richard Simmons.

On the clones vs. seed in 12/12 - I noticed my clones were starting to shoot pistils even before the switch to 12/12... I think they were so old that they just could not wait! They are much further along than any seed grow I've done after two weeks 12/12, but I've never flowered plants after they've sat in solo cups for three months either until now.

yep, they definitely behave differently than seedlings. I like how Gator once described seedlings as being stupid compared to clones, lol.

Have you tried using rainwater exclusively and no tap water ? I save rainwater for my garden plants and flowers and it helps. I have 60 gallons in garage right now I'm saving for my grow.

No, I haven't used it exclusively for a whole grow because I keep procrastinating about buying a rain barrel. I have about the same amount as you do, so I might be able to finish my current grow with it, excepting any heavy flushing, but I'm currently using tap water because my tap water, at 245ppm, seems to work well with coco. I think I'm going to add 1/2 Tbsp of epsom salt to help prevent the calcium from locking out the magnesium, PH it down to 6.0, and I'm good to go.

I am foliar spraying with rainwater every 2-3 days or so.

What is the PH of plain rainwater? Don't have a tester yet but I'm curious.

The rainwater here is 7.0. The ppm is 32.

It takes 0.7ml of GH PH down to bring it down to 6.0, whereas it takes 2.0ml to bring my 7.0 tap water down to 6.0.

Dancing ladies at the Setting Sun Saloon. Y'all got sum nice lookin' saloon girls there, partner!

b

thank you b, you should see them now!

actually, you will

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

It depends on the age of the mother, but in general, clones will go into bloom faster due to the mother's ripeness to respond. If the seedlings have grown enough to be competent, they will show sex under veg and then evocation will happen right after the flip, if not, you have a built in delay due to the juvenile nature of the seedlings. The older the mother, the more mature the clones.

b

These were the ones I cut at the last moment from the mom that died from stem rot, so she was not mature when they were cut.

They're doing OK though, just started showing some hairs yesterday and look like they're swinging into bloom nicely.

I was concerned because I had cut them from an immature mom, but they've been alternating their nodes for a while now and seem to be with the program.

thanks b!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

SS my bad, I was referring to the HPS side... Sorry if any confusion...

No, I knew you were referring to the HPS side, I was just speaking generally about distance.

The LED side has 90 degree lenses.. Much different focal point IMO.. That light can get away with it being 18" or so off the canopy..

At what distances do you generally run your GLH 300?

I think the 400w HPS side will lack some of it's punch so to speak at 18" to 20" off the canopy...

I agree, that would not be using it effectively.

This is funny........ I'm defending a dinosaur HID...lol...

hey! that dinosaur is heating my garage, lol.

Just so everyone knows... I own one of Mikes 300w led light purchased at full price... For my garden and my med needs.... I will take Mikes led light hands down..

I've used an air cooled 400w HPS in a 34" x 34" area for the past 5 years. Spent the first three years making it as efficient as I possibly could ..lol (BS HID heat problems).... Used Mikes light once and damn near hit the best yield ever for me and my patients from that space. Needless to say the HPS and all it's awesome heat and glory are no longer welcome in my garden....

Thank you dog, for being up-front and candid with your experience. Makes me even more curious as to the results of this grow.

I will say I'm surprised that those HID girls are not stretching as much as one would think...

SS dose that strain just about double in size when flowered under HID like most of today's hybrids do, or is this the first time you've seen this strain flowering under HID?

They really haven't stretched much at all. This is the first time I've personally grown this strain, but I researched it before making the choice and most growers reported a 2X stretch or a foot of stretch.

Nice observation on the leaves being thicker and the stems being thicker on the LED side.... I got the same result.. It translated into thicker/denser flowers as well.. I'm quite sure it will do the same for your strain..

will be very interesting to compare the final products.

thank you dog!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

he's right SS. if the mom that was cut was further along then yes she will flower faster, its all depends on how long u veg ur seeds for to see the flowering. they wont flower until their old enough.

cool, thanks Irish.

the mom was immature. The clones were salvaged before she died from stem rot, but she was only about 4 weeks old and 12" tall.

they seem to be doing real well though, so it doesn't seem to have slowed them down.

i am very curios to see witch light flowers 1st or if at the same time? The HID plants do seem more bushy, might lead to some good light penetration since their more open up. but the led plants look more lush to me, not to sure why this is?

I took some pics tonight and both groups are starting to flower at the same time and roughly the same rate. The LED plants seem very slightly ahead at this point, but it's very close.

i am shocked ur HID hasn't stretched more at this point and time? either u have a short strain? or u have a kick ass bulb?

It's a sativa dom strain, so it's not a shortie.

I'll tell you what though, PPP responds to LST so naturally that it's a trip. The day after I LST'ed them, I look in there and there's new shoots almost up to the level of the main cola. The next day, all the tops are leveled off and they start branching and bushing out like crazy.

Most of their energy is horizontal, not vertical, and the tents are corner to corner already. It's really something. If you want an indoor sativa that goes nuts horizontally when you LST it, Pure Power Plant is it.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I do understand what you are saying..

My 2 cents... just my opinion... but you ARE doing a comparison between the 2 technologies... so I believe you should try to maximize your results from each light? The results will be more trustworthy if you did everything to maximize yeilds on Both sides independantly. If the HID can handle being closer to the canopy.. then so be it... Just as you are doing everything you can to get the best yeild from the LED's. If you were comparing to CFL's, I would expect to see them within a few inches for max effectiveness. I've seen HID/LED comparison grows where the HID side yeilded under 0.3 g/w, which just isnt right or average, and should not be used to "compare". I know what to expect from the HID in a Cool Tube, so Your results WILL help in our analysis, but....

I would LOVE for you to get close to 1 g/w from the HID.... Then smash that yeild with the LED!

Good Luck +rep

thank you MedScientist, and nice to meet you bro .

thank you for the reps.

I appreciate your feedback on the light distancing, and I agree. Each tent should be treated individually and yield should be maximized as much as possible, and that may require different distances to canopy.

It wouldn't be fair otherwise, and wouldn't tell us much either.

I'd love to get anywhere near 1 g/w with either tent, preferably both

 

[dogsnova]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

At what distances do you generally run your GLH 300?

SS... I run one of Mikes 300w (360w actual) units aprox 10" off the canopy. I have it in a 34" x 34" area on a light mover.. I'm getting no bleaching at this height because the LED unit never stops for more the 60 seconds on each end.... The light mover seems to be a nice little trick for LED setups IMO..

When I was running the air cooled 400w HPS setup that too was in a 34" x 34" area on a light mover.. At the end of using the HPS setup we were running it 12" off the canopy at the start, and pulling the light up to aprox 15" to 17" after day 45 or so of flowering..

After thorough testing of the HID setup... Pulling the HID light up greatly helped in the deterioration of THC at the end of flowering..

The deterioration of THC is normally associated with the radiant heat coming off the hot HID bulbs..

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

thanks for the additional info dog.

10" without a mover would be way too low for this LED light, but without a mover it seems to work best at 18-20" or thereabouts. It's weird to see the plants so far away and not stretching at all. Just the opposite actually, they get all stocky and stacked.




If the 400w HID had not been on a light mover, would you still have run it at 12"?