3 grows in, struggling mid flower

[Emilya Green]

I'll never touch FFOF again, it's pure poison I'm telling you....Any chance your on the east coast?

Here is an example of what I mean. I start a plant in FF Happy Frog and its green and pretty, roots nice and white everything perfect. (solo cup or small pot) I then transplant the plant to Ocean Forest and it stops growing, leaves twist and after a few weeks all of the leaves start dropping. Ive tried everything and in the end dumped a full bag of FFOF in the woods.

I've tried it a few times. I'm telling you whatever crap Fox Farm is selling on the east coast is garbage. (My local nursery tried to warn me too...They get nothing but complaints from their customers.) They do recommend Happy Frog or Coast Of Maine.

I guess I am lucky. My Ocean Forest, bought from a local farm supply store, is perfect. I use it all the time and transplant into it immediately out of the solo cup stage, where I do use happy frog. Happy Frog was sold in the beginning as a medium most conducive to growing roots, and you are seeing that in your early plants. After that you need a more robust soil, and you don't need the sphagnum moss in your grow because as it breaks down, it goes acidic. I see this often in late flower when people are in this stuff, when the pH of the soil drastically changes, and without flushing out the decomposed moss, it can kill a grow.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

stop using happy frog but if you want more drainage, add more perlite. Use Ocean Forest with 20% perlite or pumice. FFOF was actually made to grow cannabis. If Ocean Forest is coming in unclean where you live, run it through your oven at 300° for 30 minutes to kill any bugs and larvae. If you have a bad taste in your mouth regarding OF, give Roots Organic 101 a try. There are good soils out there.

Lastly, if you have added rocks or gravel in the bottom of your containers "to help drainage" this is totally a mistake. A layer of gravel or rocks will actually hold moisture in the bottom of the container. Soil is designed with several parameters in mind. Flow through rate (how fast it absorbs moisture), moisture retention rate (how much water it can hold), cation exchange rate (how many nutes it can grab for use in the water only pass) and pH. Messing with these parameters by mixing different soils or adding stuff like perlite or vermiculite, will change the way the manufacturers intended their soil to be used.

Thanks, yes I've done the boil the soil trick but am torn. Yes, it gets rid of bugs, but it also gets rid of all the good microbes/Fungus/bacteria as well. So, I'm torn with this.

I've accepted that bagged soil comes with bugs, especially fungus gnats, but they are easy to get rid of so I did not boil my soil last grow. I was trying to keep my soil alive with good stuff. (adding Great White as well)

My biggest worry isn't fungus gnats, its root aphids or worse. I'm not sure if bagged soil has the risk of coming with aphids--if so I might go back to boiling the soil (or baking it) and adding great white later to get the microbes going.

 

[Emilya Green]

Another plug for Ocean Forest...
Why do distributers all over the world have problems with bugs in Ocean Forest?

Because it is a rich soil with organics decomposing inside. Bugs love that stuff. If it wasnt such a good soil, it wouln't draw the bugs.

You have two good solutions. Bake the soil when it comes in or use a good 5 week systemic insecticide, first in the solo cups and then near the end of veg. The stuff will be gone before harvest, and your bug problem will have been eliminated in a safe and effective manner.

I used to bake my soil religiously as it came in the door. Then I realized that storing the soil in my grow area attracted the bugs all over again. Once I decided to get serious and use modern chemicals, bugs no longer were an issue in my grow rooms.

 

[Emilya Green]

Thanks, yes I've done the boil the soil trick but am torn. Yes, it gets rid of bugs, but it also gets rid of all the good microbes/Fungus/bacteria as well. So, I'm torn with this.

I've accepted that bagged soil comes with bugs, especially fungus gnats, but they are easy to get rid of so I did not boil my soil last grow. I was trying to keep my soil alive with good stuff. (adding Great White as well)

My biggest worry isn't fungus gnats, its root aphids or worse. I'm not sure if bagged soil has the risk of coming with aphids--if so I might go back to boiling the soil (or baking it) and adding great white later to get the microbes going.

Great White is not microbes, it is fungi. There are many products to bring in microbes too, but you don't need microbes if you are feeding from a bottle. If the plants are bottle fed, they simply ignore any microbes trying to work in there and they will eventually die out. Don't worry about the microbes unless you are an organic farmer, but yes, add in the Great White, or my favorite @DYNOMYCO in when you are building your containers.

I have found too that my systemic insecticides do not kill microbes or fungi... just bugs. My problems have typically been aphids, thrips, and fungus gnats, and my systemic solution to all of this kills them all.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

I guess I am lucky. My Ocean Forest, bought from a local farm supply store, is perfect. I use it all the time and transplant into it immediately out of the solo cup stage, where I do use happy frog. Happy Frog was sold in the beginning as a medium most conducive to growing roots, and you are seeing that in your early plants. After that you need a more robust soil, and you don't need the sphagnum moss in your grow because as it breaks down, it goes acidic. I see this often in late flower when people are in this stuff, when the pH of the soil drastically changes, and without flushing out the decomposed moss, it can kill a grow.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


After that you need a more robust soil, and you don't need the sphagnum moss in your grow because as it breaks down, it goes acidic.


I'm blown away----this is new to me and very useful information although its complicating things for me a bit. I though it was salt buildup, but yes around week 5-6 flower my PH dropped way too low. Maybe it was the Sphagnum moss.

Thanks, one more thing to add to my troubleshooting list. Acidic soil caused by Sphagnum moss. Maybe I'll get rid of Happy Frog as well.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

Great White is not microbes, it is fungi. There are many products to bring in microbes too, but you don't need microbes if you are feeding from a bottle. If the plants are bottle fed, they simply ignore any microbes trying to work in there and they will eventually die out. Don't worry about the microbes unless you are an organic farmer, but yes, add in the Great White, or my favorite @DYNOMYCO in when you are building your containers.

I have found too that my systemic insecticides do not kill microbes or fungi... just bugs. My problems have typically been aphids, thrips, and fungus gnats, and my systemic solution to all of this kills them all.

Ok, thanks yeah I wasn't really sure what was in great white, I just used it around the roots during transplant. Thanks for the correction.

I might go back to boiling, we'll see. I've found BTI (Mosquito Bits tea) makes fungus gnats a non-issue but there are other bugs to worry about.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

Another plug for Ocean Forest...
Why do distributers all over the world have problems with bugs in Ocean Forest?

Because it is a rich soil with organics decomposing inside. Bugs love that stuff. If it wasnt such a good soil, it wouln't draw the bugs.

You have two good solutions. Bake the soil when it comes in or use a good 5 week systemic insecticide, first in the solo cups and then near the end of veg. The stuff will be gone before harvest, and your bug problem will have been eliminated in a safe and effective manner.

I used to bake my soil religiously as it came in the door. Then I realized that storing the soil in my grow area attracted the bugs all over again. Once I decided to get serious and use modern chemicals, bugs no longer were an issue in my grow rooms.

Yep, its not the bugs that are a problem for me. The soil I got was just bad, it even stunk like a chicken farm when watered, I mean bad ! No leaves stayed green and lived-- not one in that lousy FFOF soil.

I considered Coast Of Maine Stonington... apparently loaded with bugs, maybe thats a good sign? Good soil= bugs?

Here is another soil on my radar. I was invited to meet with the company that produces this soil, they had a demo at one of my local nurseries and the owner highly recommends it.

Great Lakes Water Only Soil 2 cu ft

 

[Emilya Green]

Yeah man, its not the bugs that are a problem for me. The soil I got was just bad, it even stunk like a chicken farm when watered, I mean bad ! No leaves stayed green and lived-- not one in that lousy FFOF soil.

I considered Coast Of Maine platinum... apparently loaded with bugs, maybe thats a good sign? Good soil= bugs?

Sounds like that soil got wet and moldy and developed a lot of bad bacteria. Yuck... I would never buy again from that distributor, not any of their products. Trust me, there is good FFOF out there.

 

[Emilya Green]

 

[Emilya Green]

Great Lakes Water Only Soil 2 cu ft

That is a totally different style of growing... if you are going to feed from a bottle, go with a cheaper soil... you will be wasting your money on this one.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

Sounds like that soil got wet and moldy and developed a lot of bad bacteria. Yuck... I would never buy again from that distributor, not any of their products. Trust me, there is good FFOF out there.

So, I live in an urban area. My local nursery is a huge dealer, not a small mom and pop shop. Three of the sales advisers there helped me--- 3 different people. Each time I pretended that I hadn't been there before and asked for soil recommendations. Not one recommended FFOF. When I asked about it, you could see them cringe a bit. All three told me it was bad news... But I didn't listen.

If you google it, you'll see many complaining about FFOF. You'll also see that the east coast factory has changed and the recipe has changed. I'm not alone here, I see way too many problems.

Maybe back in the day it was great soil, and maybe some are lucky enough to get good FFOF today, but I really think your gambling on the east coast.

Quick story: I was in line paying for Happy Frog and a woman behind me had a bag of Ocean Forest. I spoke with her and warned her not to use it. The cashier chimed in and warned her to stay away too.

 

[Emilya Green]

Quick story: I was in line paying for Happy Frog and a woman behind me had a bag of Ocean Forest. I spoke with her and warned her not to use it. The cashier chimed in and warned here to stay away too !!!!

That employee is lucky that I was not their manager... they would have been fired on the spot for dissing one of our products like that. Somewhere in your area is a warehouse where a truckload of OF materials got wet and they let it sit for a while. That is a shame. Do what you need to, but when feeding from a bottle a designer soil isnt really needed. Get a bag of perlite and a good hardware store potting mix (not Miracle Grow) and call it good. You will most likely end up with a better product than going through the folks you are using now.

As far as google goes, there are always people complaining about FFOF, just as there are always people on here complaining about me. There is a reason that hearsay evidence is not allowed in court. Consumers as a whole just don't understand that a few bugs is not the end of the world and that it is common around a rich organic soil, and it takes very little knowledge about the subject to lodge a complaint.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

That employee is lucky that I was not their manager... they would have been fired on the spot for dissing one of our products like that. Somewhere in your area is a warehouse where a truckload of OF materials got wet and they let it sit for a while. That is a shame. Do what you need to, but when feeding from a bottle a designer soil isnt really needed. Get a bag of perlite and a good hardware store potting mix (not Miracle Grow) and call it good. You will most likely end up with a better product than going through the folks you are using now.

As far as google goes, there are always people complaining about FFOF, just as there are always people on here complaining about me. There is a reason that hearsay evidence is not allowed in court. Consumers as a whole just don't understand that a few bugs is not the end of the world and that it is common around a rich organic soil, and it takes very little knowledge about the subject to lodge a complaint.

Maybe I'll take it easy on the ocean forest bashing, I'm hoping I didn't hit a nerve, sorry!

I did buy it twice though, two different bags (one small, one large) from two different stores. And in my last grow I decided to give it one more chance, but it was instant problems. Moving my plants out of FFOF into Happy Frog quickly cured everything. Funny too, Happy Frog is cheaper. Just my experience...

 

[DYNOMYCO]

Great White is not microbes, it is fungi. There are many products to bring in microbes too, but you don't need microbes if you are feeding from a bottle. If the plants are bottle fed, they simply ignore any microbes trying to work in there and they will eventually die out. Don't worry about the microbes unless you are an organic farmer, but yes, add in the Great White, or my favorite @DYNOMYCO in when you are building your containers.

I have found too that my systemic insecticides do not kill microbes or fungi... just bugs. My problems have typically been aphids, thrips, and fungus gnats, and my systemic solution to all of this kills them all.

Your one of our favorite too !

 

[greatblueheron]

My friend bought compost from a local redneck. It's made of coffee and yard clippings. He grows directly in that. It's dynamite!

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

I'm taking a little grow break to get my soil problems figured out. It seems to me that it's one of two (with a few others added) problems. 1. Poor Aeration/Compact soil late flower. 2. Salt Buildup from nutrients. (or as mentioned by Emilya here, possible acidic soil due to Spaghum moss deterioration). My goal is to get very light soil additives added to my Fox Farm Happy frog allowing better drainage. Good drainage and light soil should allow me to flush soil salts once or twice during my grow if things go bad again. Flushing compact poor draining soil has worked, but not as well as it should for me. (my plant suffers after a good flush for a week or so)

So, I'm planning to add to Fox Farm Happy Frog:

1. Rice Hulls (10percent or so)
2. Perlite 20 percent or so.
3. Worm Castings-- (for food and aeration)
4. Dolomite Lime. (for cal/mag and hopefully to buffer the soil PH)
5. Possibly mix Happy Frog 50/50 with light warrior.

If I'm way off track let me know! I'm itching to grow more Northern Lights

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

Hmph. I to had issue with ocean forest. Each bag I purchased was infested, had larvae thru entire bag.

I went to multiple stores locally, and tried ordering online. Finally gave up. Happy frog has done me well, until @Emilya pointed out the obvious issue I had. Starving my plants, with strictly water diet.

I'm an idiot.

Good stuff, we are all learning I guess..

Yeah, bugs seem unavoidable it seems, even with good soil. I'm using BTI with great success getting rid of Fungus Gnat Larvae, in fact, I water with a BTI tea to start all of my grows, fungus gnats or not. Without BTI, I doubt I could get rid of the gnats, they just seem to appear in every grow even if I boil/cook the soil. They must be everywhere and still find my soil.

 

[Mountainman80]

Hi all, I just finishing my third grow and am learning a lot. With all of my grows, things seem to take a bad turn right around week 6 of flower. I'm thinking it has to do with my soil and drainage problems.

I started with fox farm Ocean Forest, but got a bad batch that was a nightmare. I moved to Fox Farm Happy frog and am getting much better results. My problem is that if I water heavily to 20% run-off or so, the soil gets waterlogged and my plant chokes. If I use less water, I wind up with salts building up and having PH issues mid to late flower. I am adding quite a bit of course perlite to my soil, but it still seems to get compacted if I water heavily. So, I'm looking for a way to add more aeration and drainage to Fox Farm Happy frog. I could be way off base here, but I think the soil drainage is my problem.

Anyway, I'm taking a little grow break to work on my soil and get this figured out before my next grow. I'd appreciate any tips on how to get my soil right.

I'm growing one plant at a time---

Custom Grow Cabinet 2x2x5
Spiderfarmer SF-1000
Dyna Grow Foliage Pro, Bloom, Magpro, Protekt, Great White, Molasses, CalMag
Was using 3 and 5 gallon cloth pots, just purchased a plastic 7 gallon air pot. (I didn't like the coloration or possible mold growing on the cloth pots.)
RO water
Temps around 72 RH around 50.

Use river rock about 3 inch's deep in the bottoms of ur pots should fix that

 

[Chuckeye]

Use river rock about 3 inch's deep in the bottoms of ur pots should fix that

Actually the current thinking is that does not work...

Cheers

 

[Mountainman80]

Actually the current thinking is that does not work...

Cheers

Have u tried.? Most all.folks.that plant flowers of any kind normally use rock in the bottom s.for.drainage