3 grows in, struggling mid flower

[CharlesBukowksi]

Hi all, I just finishing my third grow and am learning a lot. With all of my grows, things seem to take a bad turn right around week 6 of flower. I'm thinking it has to do with my soil and drainage problems.

I started with fox farm Ocean Forest, but got a bad batch that was a nightmare. I moved to Fox Farm Happy frog and am getting much better results. My problem is that if I water heavily to 20% run-off or so, the soil gets waterlogged and my plant chokes. If I use less water, I wind up with salts building up and having PH issues mid to late flower. I am adding quite a bit of course perlite to my soil, but it still seems to get compacted if I water heavily. So, I'm looking for a way to add more aeration and drainage to Fox Farm Happy frog. I could be way off base here, but I think the soil drainage is my problem.

Anyway, I'm taking a little grow break to work on my soil and get this figured out before my next grow. I'd appreciate any tips on how to get my soil right.

I'm growing one plant at a time---

Custom Grow Cabinet 2x2x5
Spiderfarmer SF-1000
Dyna Grow Foliage Pro, Bloom, Magpro, Protekt, Great White, Molasses, CalMag
Was using 3 and 5 gallon cloth pots, just purchased a plastic 7 gallon air pot. (I didn't like the coloration or possible mold growing on the cloth pots.)
RO water
Temps around 72 RH around 50.

 

[Mayne]

its fortified soil, no need to water to run off, PH 6.5, Pots should off flat surfaces, like floor,

I hate cloth pots also,

 

[Emilya Green]

This sounds like common salt lockout, not the soil getting waterlogged. Have you ever tried actually flushing the soil about this point in the grow to get rid of the salts? I bet someone told you that watering to 20% runoff avoided salt buildup, but sadly, this just isn't true. Let's look at the numbers to see why.

If you do a proper flush using 3x the container size of fresh water, you will have watered to 300% of the container volume. You instead are watering 20% extra, or 280% less than what would be needed to flush the soil. Let's say you water 5 times, every time doing the 20% runoff. You still are 200% down from what a real flush would have given you in a proper flush. The 20% runoff idea doesn't make any sense... it can't work like a real and proper flush. I think that doing a proper flush at mid flower would solve your problem... its worth at least a try to see.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

This sounds like common salt lockout, not the soil getting waterlogged. Have you ever tried actually flushing the soil about this point in the grow to get rid of the salts? I bet someone told you that watering to 20% runoff avoided salt buildup, but sadly, this just isn't true. Let's look at the numbers to see why.

If you do a proper flush using 3x the container size of fresh water, you will have watered to 300% of the container volume. You instead are watering 20% extra, or 280% less than what would be needed to flush the soil. Let's say you water 5 times, every time doing the 20% runoff. You still are 200% down from what a real flush would have given you in a proper flush. The 20% runoff idea doesn't make any sense... it can't work like a real and proper flush. I think that doing a proper flush at mid flower would solve your problem... its worth at least a try to see.

Thanks for taking the time to help me out here! Yes, I have flushed three times now (about double the amount of water to soil--once per grow around end of stretch) and it worked, BUT flushing causes its own problems and I really hate doing it. I'm not sure why, but Fox Farm soil holds the flushed water way too long leaving my plants choking for oxygen (air) and going without any nutrients for up to a week until things dry out. So, for me, it's lose/lose. Flushing is bad, and the 20% runnoff watering technique isn't good either. I've also tried bottom feeding, but that keeps salts building up as well.

I am planning to add something to the Fox Farm Soil next grow in addition to perlite. If I can get the soil to drain more freely, I'll flush as needed. Thats the trick for me, getting soil that can be flushed without getting bogged down. If I can flush and dry out quickly, my problems should be solved.

Note: After flushing fox farm soil, you can see the soil level drop as it gets compacted, another problem I have with flushing. I am using cloth pots too.... RH around 50.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

I'm taking a grow break to work this out. For now, I am researching using 50/50 Fox Farm Happy Frog, and Light warrior. I'm hoping that light warrior will aerate and improve the drainage of my soil. I'd love the ability to flush my plants without drowning them for a few days.

Is there something else I can add to my soil to lighten it up? Peat moss? Vermiculite? I'm already using a lot of Perlite and wouldn't want to add more, its starts to float after a while, especially after flushing.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

its fortified soil, no need to water to run off, PH 6.5, Pots should off flat surfaces, like floor,

I hate cloth pots also,

I figured I'd try one of these this grow and got this for under ten bucks (used) on ebay. We'll see how it works (7 gallons) or so

)

 

[Emilya Green]

I'm taking a grow break to work this out. For now, I am researching using 50/50 Fox Farm Happy Frog, and Light warrior. I'm hoping that light warrior will aerate and improve the drainage of my soil. I'd love the ability to flush my plants without drowning them for a few days.

Is there something else I can add to my soil to lighten it up? Peat moss? Vermiculite? I'm already using a lot of Perlite and wouldn't want to add more, its starts to float after a while, especially after flushing.

First, Happy Frog was not meant to be used in the way you are doing this. Mixing two different soils with two different purposes is not the answer either. Happy Frog was originally sold as a light starter soil, and it is mostly composed of sphagnum moss. As such, it also has a more complicated pH profile, with buffers on both the high and low end. A better soil for your purposes is Ocean Forest, but you have already rejected it for your own reasons.

I suspect that you are not watering correctly, yet you are blaming all of the problems you are seeing on the soil and not the way you water. I invite you to read my signature work, How to Properly Water... the link is down below. I suspect that you are watering too often and not letting your soil dry out all the way to the bottom between waterings, and I further suspect that by doing so, you have damaged your lower roots and this is why you seem to be having trouble draining the container.

Second, I have been doing this for years, and for a good part of that time I used FF nutrients, and I still use FF soils. When I used the synthetic nutes I had a need to flush several times during the grow, fully 3x the container size, not shortcutting the job with going with only 2x. I have never seen a problem after a flush. This cleansing acts every bit like a plain water watering and I always got a growth spurt after the flush. I have never imagined that my soil was waterlogged, and I wonder why you do.

You must be doing something fundamentally wrong for you to have such problems. Let me ask you this, are you alternating feeding with plain water every other time all through the grow? What has made you so afraid of water and so convinced that a designer soil, one made for this application, is not working for you? Have you ever tried the "lift the pot" method of determining when it is time to water, or do you have a set interval that you use?

 

[Emilya Green]

After flushing fox farm soil, you can see the soil level drop as it gets compacted, another problem I have with flushing.

Do you not compact your soil a little bit when you are building your containers? Especially in cloth containers, if you do not pack the sides in a bit with your soil, you of course are going to get voids and soil dropping as it compacts with normal watering. Loose soil in your containers is not the way to go, and not the way to help the container drain. The water in your container doesn't drain or even evaporate... the plant has to use it.

If your soil level drops after a good watering, you didn't pack the soil correctly. Flushing by itself should not cause noticeable dropping of your soil level.

 

[Mayne]

I figured I'd try one of these this grow and got this for under ten bucks (used) on ebay. We'll see how it works (7 gallons) or so

)

meh,, even worse, I threw like 5 of those away.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

First, Happy Frog was not meant to be used in the way you are doing this. Mixing two different soils with two different purposes is not the answer either. Happy Frog was originally sold as a light starter soil, and it is mostly composed of sphagnum moss. As such, it also has a more complicated pH profile, with buffers on both the high and low end. A better soil for your purposes is Ocean Forest, but you have already rejected it for your own reasons.

Long story here, but here on the east coast, something really bad has happened to FFOF soil. In fact, my local nurseries warn AGAINST using it at all. I've tried it a few times and my plants suffered horribly. Moving to Happy Frog instantly cured all of the problems I had. I'm also considering Coast of Maine Stonington Blend, and a Michigan lake soil.

I've been reading that many are mixing Light warrior 50/50 to Happy Frog or Ocean Forest. (not my idea) My hope is that this will improve aeration and drainage?

I suspect that you are not watering correctly, yet you are blaming all of the problems you are seeing on the soil and not the way you water. I invite you to read my signature work, How to Properly Water... the link is down below. I suspect that you are watering too often and not letting your soil dry out all the way to the bottom between waterings, and I further suspect that by doing so, you have damaged your lower roots and this is why you seem to be having trouble draining the container.

OK, I am up for tips on watering, it is very possible I'm doing something wrong here BUT... I became so obsessed with watering that I actually use a scale to weigh dry soil in the pot. I know the dry weight and know exactly when the soil needs water by weight. I can also monitor the amount of water the plant is drinking (I'm a geek, I keep a log) Usually, 2-3 days before the soil dries out. I also like to give an extra dry day from time to time, my plants seems to like it. I'll have a good look at your signature and watering tips to see if I'm missing a trick.

Second, I have been doing this for years, and for a good part of that time I used FF nutrients, and I still use FF soils. When I used the synthetic nutes I had a need to flush several times during the grow, fully 3x the container size, not shortcutting the job with going with only 2x. I have never seen a problem after a flush. This cleansing acts every bit like a plain water watering and I always got a growth spurt after the flush. I have never imagined that my soil was waterlogged, and I wonder why you do.

Thanks, yes this is a good question. I'm not sure why but my plants get very unhappy after flushing, I understand how important it is especially when using synthetic nutes but my plants hold the water way too long, almost a week or so. I know this using a scale to weigh, my plant drinks little water 2 days after a flush, and then it slowly starts breathing and drinking again. So I could be way off base, but I really think I need better drainage and aeration in order to flush....I'd love to continue to use Fox Far Soil as well.

You must be doing something fundamentally wrong for you to have such problems. Let me ask you this, are you alternating feeding with plain water every other time all through the grow? What has made you so afraid of water and so convinced that a designer soil, one made for this application, is not working for you? Have you ever tried the "lift the pot" method of determining when it is time to water, or do you have a set interval that you use?

Yes, I am watering once every 2-3 days and occasionally go 4 (all being monitored by weight using a scale) I feed at half strength or so around once a week. (1-2 plain waterings to every feeding.) As my plant gains size and enters the flowering stage, water consumption increases and I water every 2-3 days without the 4th day.



Thanks so much for taking the time to help, I am listening to your advice and really appreciate it.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

meh,, even worse, I threw like 5 of those away.

Dammit ! Don't say that man ! I knew something was wrong with these, not many people seem to use them. Ohh well, we'll see how it does. I like using the plastic sides to train my plants, cloth was a pita.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

Do you not compact your soil a little bit when you are building your containers? Especially in cloth containers, if you do not pack the sides in a bit with your soil, you of course are going to get voids and soil dropping as it compacts with normal watering. Loose soil in your containers is not the way to go, and not the way to help the container drain. The water in your container doesn't drain or even evaporate... the plant has to use it.

If your soil level drops after a good watering, you didn't pack the soil correctly. Flushing by itself should not cause noticeable dropping of your soil level.

I compact the soil lightly when potting per the soil instructions. I dont cram it in there, but I dont keep it fluffy either. Over time, even with normal waterings, you can see the soil level dropping and as time moves on the soil becomes cement like.

After my last grow, I inspected the roots (5 gallon cloth container). The entire pot was a giant ball of thin roots, almost as if there was no soil at all.... In fact, I could hardly get any soil to drop out shaking and squeezing the soil by hand. (Durban Poison grow, 16 weeks).

 

[Chuckeye]

You may want to consider moving the ProMix HP

No nutrient content, flushes easily, is ph buffered and is about $5/3gallon fabric pot here...

Lightly feed with every watering and when flushing, the last of three doses I add feed so the plant never goes hungry.

Good luck figuring this out, eh ?

Cheers

 

[Mayne]

Dammit ! Don't say that man ! I knew something was wrong with these, not many people seem to use them. Ohh well, we'll see how it does. I like using the plastic sides to train my plants, cloth was a pita.

I know bro,,,,,, sorry. I just didnt like them, u might. just make sure you use them correctly. There are open hole on 1 end, and closed holes on the other, you want the closed holes on top, so when you water, they dont pour out. I just found that watering is uneven in them. I use black buckets from dollar tree now, and drill holes in the bottom, and then i buy a strainer from the dollar tree, and cut it to fit the bottom, so wet soil isnt sitting in the bottom as the strainer doesnt allow soil to sit directly on the bottom.

 

[Emilya Green]

I feed at half strength or so around once a week.

You have just solved the mystery. Why in the world are you feeding half strength at the very point in the grow where they need the most nutes ever?? The instructions from the nute manufacturer are clear, yet you are giving half strength. What do you know that the scientists who developed the nutrient line don't know? Everything else sounds good, especially the watering by weight part of it.

 

[Mayne]

You have just solved the mystery. Why in the world are you feeding half strength at the very point in the grow where they need the most nutes ever?? The instructions from the nute manufacturer are clear, yet you are giving half strength. What do you know that the scientists who developed the nutrient line don't know? Everything else sounds good, especially the watering by weight part of it.

because his light is only 100 watts, and nute manufactures assume your using a 1000 watts hps.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

You have just solved the mystery. Why in the world are you feeding half strength at the very point in the grow where they need the most nutes ever?? The instructions from the nute manufacturer are clear, yet you are giving half strength. What do you know that the scientists who developed the nutrient line don't know? Everything else sounds good, especially the watering by weight part of it.

Lol, because of nutrient burn! My DP plant didn't like full feedings and got roasted quickly. I slowly increase nutrients and decrease when leaf tips show signs of nutrient burn.

I've been thinking a lot about the replies here, I'm not one of those people that asks for help and then brushes over the help provided, I dig deep and really appreciate advice.

The earlier post that mentions flushing 2-3 times during a grow has my attention, at most I've flushed only once per grow and I think the salts are building up causing lockout. Maybe I'm feeding at 1/2 strength due to the fact that the plant is locked out with too many salts piling up in the soil.

So next grow, I'm all about the flush. Keeping salts away. Now, I just need to get my aeration and drainage sorted out and I'll be a flushing fool! (Funny, most feed schedules advise to flush a few times during the grow, maybe I shoulda listened.)

 

[Emilya Green]

because his light is only 100 watts, and nute manufactures assume your using a 1000 watts hps.

so then advise him to use only 10% of the nutes if this logic is valid.

 

[CharlesBukowksi]

because his light is only 100 watts, and nute manufactures assume your using a 1000 watts hps

So I think its important to understand that I have more light than I can ever use here with the SF-1000. I am in a small cabinet 18 "x18" x 48". The light puts out more than enough for this small space.

Side note: my budget allows for a bigger light, but my space doesn't! I have my eyes on the SE-3000 but its too much for my space.

 

[Mayne]

so then advise him to use only 10% of the nutes if this logic is valid.

well, definitly not 100%. Tuff call without seeing the plant, as plant size matters.