Seed shell stuck to seedling and killing it?

[SFBP]

New here and have enjoyed reading various posts. So glad to have y'all to come to for advice and moral support.

Started four seeds ( 2- Super Lemon Haze and 2-Great White Shark from Greenhouse Seeds, Feminized Seed ) in 72 degree spring water in a dark cupboard, they didn't sink. Exactly 24 hours later pulled them out of the cupboard and they were all still floating but when I tapped them this time they all sunk immediately. ( Next time should I try tapping them after an hour to get them to soak better? ) and then transferred them to wet paper towel and put them back in the cupboard at 72 degrees. Exactly 24 hours later one of the SLH roots was over an inch long and curved down from where it came out of the seed and pretty straight down in a line for most of its length. The other one was much more curled. The GWS roots were a lot shorter and thicker and much more curled than the SLH.

I gently put them all in premoistened Jiffy Peat Pots, being careful not to damage the roots. They are in a 24X12 "green house" on a head mat at 74 degrees with a hood and Sun Blaster 24 inch grow light with reflector. 24 hours later the one SLH was showing really well the stem curved and trying to uncurl out of the soil and the other seed was just barely a pin point of white in the soil. Well within 12 hours the one that was only a pin point was now standing tall at 2 inches with beautiful green cotyledon and even the first real leaves sprouting from the center of the cotyledon. The one that showed so much promise at the start now appeared to have the seed shell still stuck on it and it appeared to be killing the seedling. BUMMER.

Can anyone tell me if this is going to kill this seedling? IS there ANYTHING I could have done to prevent the shell from sticking? I did remove the shell when it was obvious that the other SLH had surpassed the one with the stuck shell but the cotyledon on it still is all rounded in the seed shape and yellow and hard. it has been 24 hours now and it is not appearing to have made any changes in the last 24 hours since removing the shell. It is not worse or better, pretty much exactly the same.

The GWS seeds seem to be lagging behind the SLH even though they are in the same nursery. I had one the GWS seeds sprout and have a very curly looking stem and very weak stem and the cotyledon on that one was very long narrow on each side but now as it gets more light it is starting to stand up and turn very green at first it seemed to be possibly too deeply planted so I helped it by gently taking a very few little pieces of peat off it to help it. And it looks now like it helped as it is looking fine. BUT it's sister, like the one SLH seedling, seems to have the shell stuck too,..... so of course I have taking it off gently but it too doesn't appear to be progressing.

Should I have helped them get out of the soil or not? If I had of soaked the seeds better by waiting an hour to tap them down to make them sink so they soaked while sunk for the 24 hours? or soaked them longer than 24 hours? Would that have prevented the stuck shell issue? Any ideas to prevent this in the future?

 

[SFBP]

WOW The one seedling GWS popped open the cotyledon FINALLY THANK YOU GANGA GOD

I read that there is a membrane inside the shell and if that sticks it can cause problems so when you gently crack the shell ( helmet ) off you should wet the head of the seedling if it looks like it is still in the shape of the shell, and if it seem to have a hard coating on it, it could be the membrane so use clean saliva ( if there is such a thing ) to wet the head as the enzymes in the saliva can help dissolve the membrane and do not expose it to direct light as that just cooks the membrane to a harder coating,........ kinda makes sense,........ so I gave the "Helmet Head" a good licking, so to speak,........ and turned off the light for the night,...... will keep my eye on it,....

 

[SFBP]

WOW The one seedling GWS popped open the cotyledon FINALLY THANK YOU GANGA GOD

I read that there is a membrane inside the shell and if that sticks it can cause problems so when you gently crack the shell ( helmet ) off you should wet the head of the seedling if it looks like it is still in the shape of the shell, and if it seem to have a hard coating on it, it could be the membrane so use clean saliva ( if there is such a thing ) to wet the head as the enzymes in the saliva can help dissolve the membrane and do not expose it to direct light as that just cooks the membrane to a harder coating,........ kinda makes sense,........ so I gave the "Helmet Head" a good licking, so to speak,........ and turned off the light for the night,...... will keep my eye on it,....

 

[SFBP]

After reading more,..... lesson here is that you cannot read enough and google your questions and the answers are there,...... I turned the Helmet Head seedlings upside down and soaked JUST THE HELMEt in slightly WARMER water carefully and gently picked at the edges of the membrane that turned crusty and hardened and soaked more and gently picked the edge and then I could see and feel the membrane letting go,.............. and finally poof,..... off it came

Knowing now what I know, I would never again let a helmet sit on a seedling and never again wait so long to remove it and I would make SURE to soak it when I removed the helmet to make sure the membrane was also off so the cotyledon could open and flourish,......

 

[SFBP]

It still looks pretty much the same,........ I think the one on the right actually has the very tiny sprouts of real leaves starting,... hopefully,......... the one on the left with the closed yellowish head,............ it still looks exactly the same,... hmmmmm,.........

 

[Truth Seeker]

No changes?

I always pick off my girls's helmets. If they don't fall off by the end of the day that they sprouted, I carefully pull them off them. They are in search of the light and I don't want them to die or do a super stretch.

Hope your babies pull through!

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Seed shell stuck on top of sprout is often a sign of shallow sowing of seed...

If sown a bit deep as the seed sprouts through soil the pressure/friction removes the outer the shell !


How ever dampening with water & left for 15 minutes will make shell softer & easyer remove, repeat process if required !

 

[GreatLife4All]

Seed shell stuck on top of sprout is often a sign of shallow sowing of seed...

If sown a bit deep as the seed sprouts through soil the pressure/friction removes the outer the shell !


How ever dampening with water & left for 15 minutes will make shell softer & easyer remove, repeat process if required !

Excellent thoughts FD.

I have had this happen many times. I generally give it a day to correct itself. If not, I simply pick off the seed shell. And then, if required, pick off the membrane. I don't think I have ever lost a plant due to "helmet head" - at least not after the first couple of times.

And I have often wondered what the cause of this was. I have pretty good anecdotal evidence that it is planting the seed too shallow - but I have never chased it down. But it doesn't seem to be that easy either...

It also seems that some seed shells are extremely hard and are prone to doing this even if planted an inch deep.

I also know that storing any seed in the wrong environmental conditions can cause the shell to become hard - and thus cause problems from "helmet head" and germination.

But the fix is the same... no matter the cause. Get the shell and membrane off as quickly and gently as possible. The method suggested by FD sounds very good.

An interesting topic for sure!

 

[donpaul.p]

the only issue is if you pull the shell of to early it can just cause the stem to rot as the seedlings is not formed enough to start growing,

ive pulled seeds off to early and seedlings then just rot and not open, if the seedlings is ok then the seed shell will pop off no matter what, the only time they dont is if you dont plant them deep enough, i find planting them around 5ml deep with the flat end poiting up,
the flat spot on the seed is the sort of hinge that allows it to open, so when it sprouts the tap root grows out of the rounded edge of the seeds, so if you plant seeds direct try and plant them aroun 5ml deep with the flat spot on the seed facing up, this will save the seedling having to twist round before it pushes the seed upwards and out of the growing medium,

i find soaking seeds give less success than planting direct into a growing medium, plus if you take a close look at a seedlings in paper towel method you will see the tap root is covered in fine hairs, when you transplant you damage these and it can stress the plant, their was rumours it caused a higher male ratio but ive not noticed this and still have the same ratio when i plant direct so i found that info not to be true, how ever i do have higher germination rates and seedlings seem much healthier when planted direct instead of transplanting from paper towel,

if their going to grow then they will grow just as well in medium so i find this method has always worked the best, all though im making my own seeds so from time to time ill put 10 seeds in paper towel just to check germination rates and see how many seeds pop open, but seeds that i buy get planted direct and i only use paper towel to run germination checks on different batches of seeds

 

[Scarfinger68]

i find planting them around 5ml deep with the flat end poiting up,
the flat spot on the seed is the sort of hinge that allows it to open, so when it sprouts the tap root grows out of the rounded edge of the seeds, so if you plant seeds direct try and plant them aroun 5ml deep with the flat spot on the seed facing up, this will save the seedling having to twist round before it pushes the seed upwards and out of the growing medium,

i find soaking seeds give less success than planting direct into a growing medium, plus if you take a close look at a seedlings in paper towel method you will see the tap root is covered in fine hairs, when you transplant you damage these and it can stress the plant, their was rumours it caused a higher male ratio but ive not noticed this and still have the same ratio when i plant direct so i found that info not to be true, how ever i do have higher germination rates and seedlings seem much healthier when planted direct instead of transplanting from paper towel,

I am going to respectfully disagree with you and then agree with you Don. Only because I do it the opposite as you described unless I am just misunderstanding you.

I plant my seeds as if they were a raindrop falling to the earth. The heavier round/flat end will be down and the pointed end will be up. The tap root comes out of the pointed end (well maybe to the side a little) and then turns downward (making an upside down U shape). I use tweezers when planting and 5/5 sprouted last grow and 4/5 this grow. I am only speaking from experience

When you plant the flat end up... the tap root come out and makes an S shape because it initially turns up and then realizes it is upside down and uses more energy to go back down.

The above statements are for planting directly into your soil which like you I agree works better than paper towel and risking damaging the tap root.

The time the flat end is planted up is when people use the paper towel method and grow a slightly longer tap root. They just put it flat end up and tap root down.

If I misunderstood you... feel free to slap me upside the head

 

[Scarfinger68]

I am going to respectfully disagree with you and then agree with you Don. Only because I do it the opposite as you described unless I am just misunderstanding you.

I plant my seeds as if they were a raindrop falling to the earth. The heavier round/flat end will be down and the pointed end will be up. The tap root comes out of the pointed end (well maybe to the side a little) and then turns downward (making an upside down U shape). I use tweezers when planting and 5/5 sprouted last grow and 4/5 this grow. I am only speaking from experience

When you plant the flat end up... the tap root come out and makes an S shape because it initially turns up and then realizes it is upside down and uses more energy to go back down.

The above statements are for planting directly into your soil which like you I agree works better than paper towel and risking damaging the tap root.

The time the flat end is planted up is when people use the paper towel method and grow a slightly longer tap root. They just put it flat end up and tap root down.

If I misunderstood you... feel free to slap me upside the head

This is how I plant directly into FFOF soil. No pre-germination.

 

[donpaul.p]

ok

their seems to be 2 different methods of planting seeds, the first method and method i have always used is you point the flat spot on the seed upwards so the tap root only has to grow down into the soil, this is what my seeds do, my tap roots dont turn round or grow one way then the other, i put the flat spot facing upwards and the tap root grows out the bottom and pushes the seed shell up and out the soil, when i plant them this way my tap root dont twist up then down like in the pic above, ive had to replant a few seedlings early on and the tap root just grows strait down without coming up then going back down, if it did this id see the tap root coming out the soil before going back downwards. when i had fungus gnat larvae in the soil i had to throw the soil away as the grubs was eating the seedlings, so when i dug down the tap root was only 1cm to 2cm in length and it was growing strait down and had not turned if it did it would of pushed the tap root out of the soil, but the tap root was strait down on the seedlings with the seed been pushed upwards

but ive just searched the net and their is good arguments for both sides, the method i use always works and i can say my seedlings tap roots dont grow upwards then turn down when i plant them with the flat spot facing upwards as ive always been told to use this method,

pointing the flat spot down means the tap root has got to grow upwards first then turn to grow downwards, maybe that is a better method , when i used to just throw my seeds in the soil i had tap roots that would grow up then down and id have to put more soil on top due to this, but since using the flat spot facing upwards ive not had any issues with the tap root growing upwards then down,

but ive read both sides of the discussion so what ever works for you id keep doing, or just plant the seeds on their side, or just throw them in the ground like most outdoor commercial growers do,

from my own experience i have no issues when planting the flat spot upwards, i can say for sure that my tap root does not grow up then down, so i guess either method will work as the tap root will always want to grow down and push the seed up, when i plant flat spot up the tap root grows out of the bottom and continues to grow down, ive not seen any that grow upwards then turn and grow down,

maybe im totally wrong, next time i plant some seeds in a week or 2 ill try both methods and see what happens, i dont think its going to make a huge difference in successful plants as all should grow with no problems, but ive always used flat spot up as ive seen myself that the tap root tends to grow strait down, at least thats what im sure ive been seeing but not paid that much attention.

when i plant my next lot of seeds ill see what happens, i got lots of seeds of my own crossed so dont mind sacrificeing some of them to find out exactly whats going on.

so your saying flat spot down so the tap root has to grow up then it turns down, but flat spot up means the tap root grows down, then grows up then grows down again, im pretty sure my tap roots are not doing this, im sure i would of noticed as i dont always plant my seeds deep enough but im sure i would see the tap root grow upwards like i have in the past but since using the flat spot up method ive not had any issues with tap root growing up before down.

so ill give both methods a try and sacrifice some seeds to find out whats going on, it will just be a case of carefully digging down to see whats going on, or i guess its possible to use paper towel method but have the paper towel standing up instead of lying flat so the seed has got place to grow down as well as up instead of it been on a flat surface, if i do that i might be to see exactly whats going on,

thanks for the info, ive always been told its the flat spot up so the tap root can grow strait down, but maybe im wrong and been told some wrong info

 

[Scarfinger68]

ok

their seems to be 2 different methods of planting seeds, the first method and method i have always used is you point the flat spot on the seed upwards so the tap root only has to grow down into the soil, this is what my seeds do, my tap roots dont turn round or grow one way then the other, i put the flat spot facing upwards and the tap root grows out the bottom and pushes the seed shell up and out the soil, when i plant them this way my tap root dont twist up then down like in the pic above, ive had to replant a few seedlings early on and the tap root just grows strait down without coming up then going back down, if it did this id see the tap root coming out the soil before going back downwards. when i had fungus gnat larvae in the soil i had to throw the soil away as the grubs was eating the seedlings, so when i dug down the tap root was only 1cm to 2cm in length and it was growing strait down and had not turned if it did it would of pushed the tap root out of the soil, but the tap root was strait down on the seedlings with the seed been pushed upwards

but ive just searched the net and their is good arguments for both sides, the method i use always works and i can say my seedlings tap roots dont grow upwards then turn down when i plant them with the flat spot facing upwards as ive always been told to use this method,

pointing the flat spot down means the tap root has got to grow upwards first then turn to grow downwards, maybe that is a better method , when i used to just throw my seeds in the soil i had tap roots that would grow up then down and id have to put more soil on top due to this, but since using the flat spot facing upwards ive not had any issues with the tap root growing upwards then down,

but ive read both sides of the discussion so what ever works for you id keep doing, or just plant the seeds on their side, or just throw them in the ground like most outdoor commercial growers do,

from my own experience i have no issues when planting the flat spot upwards, i can say for sure that my tap root does not grow up then down, so i guess either method will work as the tap root will always want to grow down and push the seed up, when i plant flat spot up the tap root grows out of the bottom and continues to grow down, ive not seen any that grow upwards then turn and grow down,

maybe im totally wrong, next time i plant some seeds in a week or 2 ill try both methods and see what happens, i dont think its going to make a huge difference in successful plants as all should grow with no problems, but ive always used flat spot up as ive seen myself that the tap root tends to grow strait down, at least thats what im sure ive been seeing but not paid that much attention.

when i plant my next lot of seeds ill see what happens, i got lots of seeds of my own crossed so dont mind sacrificeing some of them to find out exactly whats going on.

so your saying flat spot down so the tap root has to grow up then it turns down, but flat spot up means the tap root grows down, then grows up then grows down again, im pretty sure my tap roots are not doing this, im sure i would of noticed as i dont always plant my seeds deep enough but im sure i would see the tap root grow upwards like i have in the past but since using the flat spot up method ive not had any issues with tap root growing up before down.

so ill give both methods a try and sacrifice some seeds to find out whats going on, it will just be a case of carefully digging down to see whats going on, or i guess its possible to use paper towel method but have the paper towel standing up instead of lying flat so the seed has got place to grow down as well as up instead of it been on a flat surface, if i do that i might be to see exactly whats going on,

thanks for the info, ive always been told its the flat spot up so the tap root can grow strait down, but maybe im wrong and been told some wrong info

I like to say... "Do what ever works for you" It just goes to show that there isn't just one way to do things when it comes to cannabis.

One reason I started planting point up was this picture:

See how they naturally come out and then turn down. I believe this helps the seedling peel the seed shell off as it gets pulled up. If flat end is up and it pushes straight up it doesn't get any drag to pull shell off? Maybe more helmets are left on this way? Have you experienced a lot of attached seed shells with flat side up?

Thanks for keeping this an adult conversation.

+Reps for researching

 

[donpaul.p]

great pic, not had any problems with seed shells unless i dont plant them deep enough, im sure planting them anyway is totally fine,

but i think they curl like that because of how their are inside the seed shell, if you have ever had a bad seed and popped the shell off you will see its curled up inside the seed shell, so i guess thats why it grows like that, but i find i have faster sprouting seeds when i plant them with the flat side facing up, but for ages i just planted the seed any way it fell in the hole and had no problems with seeds that way,

so each to their own i guess, but interesting, i might try both ways and see which has a faster growth out the ground, chances are their is going to be little difference

thanks for providing the pics and info,

 

[FrankFoster]

My buddy always has this happen in shallows. tweezer the shell off.

 

[Karrionwalker]

No changes?

I always pick off my girls's helmets. If they don't fall off by the end of the day that they sprouted, I carefully pull them off them. They are in search of the light and I don't want them to die or do a super stretch.

Hope your babies pull through!

You made me feel so bad I ran in there and I just touched it very gently and the cat came off. Thank you. She looks so much happier now and you’re right she was reaching for the light.