THC/CBD Decarboxylation for extractions

L

Lab Rat

New Member
I'm not going to bore you with my entire medical situation; simply put I have a type of benign tumor in my brainstem for which there is no treatment other than surgery. Smoking or vaping high THC strains helped with the nausea and appetite control but this as medicine didn't really kick in till I tried edibles.

The left side of my body has a partial paralysis and edibles (specifically oil) has helped reduce the paralyzed area.

At some point a pothead friend of mine commented how much higher he got from "happy" brownies but not from my oil; which did make you high but not as much. The answer is heat, specifically the temperature of the oven.

According to Wikipedia:
Decarboxylation is a chemical reaction that removes a carboxyl group and releases carbon dioxide (CO2). Usually, decarboxylation refers to a reaction of carboxylic acids, removing a carbon atom from a carbon chain. The reverse process, which is the first chemical step in photosynthesis, is called carboxylation, the addition of CO2 to a compound. Enzymes that catalyze decarboxylations are called decarboxylases or, the more formal term, carboxy-lyases.

Now when you smoke, the heat of the flame/cherry auto decarbs your product; its actually way too hot but some THC manages to get through into the smoke.

Here's the trick, you can decarb to boost or remove a certain component so you can end up with 2 or 3 different oils/tinctures from the same strain.

decarb_graph_zps33f82670.jpg


Decarbing will convert THCA to THC when using 250*F for 27 minutes. You can do this with an oven for which its thermostat has been previously calibrated to be precise. I personally use an induction cooktop that gives me precise temperature control.

What happens after 27 minutes? In my case THC gets in the way of accessing the more medicinal CBD so I tried to remove it. By letting the product keep cooking until 51 minutes I managed to remove the head high. The THC starts converting to CBN. This has allowed me to make (from the same plant) nighttime and daytime medicine. One to help you sleep and deal with nausea and another to deal with the numbness and pins and needles.
 
Here's my problem; in Costa Rica (where I am) its still quite illegal so high CBD strains are quite rare and what little knowledge is out there usually revolves around boosting THC but CBD has a lower evaporation temperature so what is the temperature and time to decarb CBDA to CBD?
 
Great post, very informative. Have you ever tried consuming Cannabis raw (fresh or dried)? Maybe supplement your normal activated Cannabinoids with living, inactive ones and see if that helps to heal the source of the issue.

*edit*

I just saw your second post. I've always read that CBD decarbs best at 280F for ~60 minutes.

Cheers :)

:green_heart:
 
I've read about juicing the leaves and consuming it naturally and I would if I could but as I'm not a grower its actually a bit of a problem. What I've seen is that in order to juice the leaves but not kill the plants you need something like 30 plants per person.

280 for 60 minutes doesn't make too much sense to me. Due to the lower evaporation temperature of CBD you would think that decarbing for CBD would be lower than for THC.

CBD: 180 degrees Celsius (356 degrees Fahrenheit)
THC: 200 degrees Celsius (392 degrees Fahrenheit)

In my experiments going for longer decarbs removes THC so what little CBD is there becomes more available. But it doesn't seem to make more of it.

I'm hoping that someone can do a before and after to see what happens to CBDA.
 
CBD: 180 degrees Celsius (356 degrees Fahrenheit)
THC: 200 degrees Celsius (392 degrees Fahrenheit)
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Where are you getting these temperatures? I have found boiling points, which is the reverse, thc has lower boiling point.

From mghq...
THC (Δ-9-tetrahydrocannabinol)
Boiling point: 157° C / 314.6° Fahrenheit
Properties: Euphoriant, Analgesic, Anti Inflammatory, Antioxidant, Antiemetic

CBD (cannabidiol)
Boiling point: 160-180°C / 320-356° Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Analgesic, Antipsychotic, Anti Inflammatory, Antioxidant, Antispasmodic

CBN (Cannabinol)
Boiling point: 185°C / 365° Fahrenheit
Properties: Oxidation, breakdown, product, Sedative, Antibiotic
Click to expand...

I have been asking around, is there a way to decarb thca->thc->cbn while still keeping the cbd available? I am asking for those who want to use medicinal marijuana but may have a drug test. It seems like there may be a sweet spot of temp range/duration where this can happen? Like maybe 315F for an hour? Right at the boiling point of thc but not quite cbd, such a small range between the two. Maybe that is why someone on another forum said it is possible but not easy.
 
I have a vascular mutation in my brainstem (kinda like a tumor) so I can "feel" the CBD doing its thing. As the CA (cavernous angioma) shrinks; more feeling comes back to my left arm/left leg.

THC doesn't do much for me other than get me high and when I boosted THC content through decarb (27 minutes @ 250F) I had the be borderline bad trip to get the healing effects of CBD. Its like THC is running interferance.

By decarbing at 250*F for 51 minutes I removed the head high and found that I could take less oil and get the same healing effect. I have not found anything that turns into CBD and if anything decarbing too long might affect its quantity.

I'm not stating what is or isn't medicine; I'm stating what is or isn't medicine in my specific case. A friend's dad has Parkinson's and he prefers what I do for myself, says it makes me less sleepy.

As for the temps, I found online. I can't say how accurate they are but in general high heat is a no no.
 
So more than decarbing for CBD, its really getting rid of the THC by converting to CBN and thus making the smaller CBD content more readily available.
 
Do you think your sweet spot of 250f for 51m would pass a pee test or simply be a by product of building tolerance? Yes, high temps are a no no, especially since most people when they talk about decarb are talking about preserving thc.
 
Although the head high is reduced I'm not sure the % is low enough so that you would pass a pee test. Also smoked it leaves the system much faster than tacked or ingested.

Yeah decarbing to remove THC was all trial and error and there was very little to no information on that. My CBD/CBN oil will make a healthy person slightly warm but will really activate my numb nerve endings.
 
Lab Rat said:
Although the head high is reduced I'm not sure the % is low enough so that you would pass a pee test. Also smoked it leaves the system much faster than tacked or ingested.

Yeah decarbing to remove THC was all trial and error and there was very little to no information on that. My CBD/CBN oil will make a healthy person slightly warm but will really activate my numb nerve endings.
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Yes, your post is why I joined this forum, you were as close as I have found to anyone who is doing what I am looking to do. I am thinking there is still a degree of thc in your oils as it seems to me from information available, you are doing a nice job of decarbing cbd. The thc would be declining, that coupled with tolerance and all the good cbd is giving you that nice feeling you describe.

What concentration method are you using and genetics for that matter? I believe concentration method(alchemy), genetics and decarboxylation are the keys to potent, disease specific medicines.

And they want to isolate particular cannabinoids as opposed to whole plant healing??? Insane world.
 
Well I don't think that I'm decarbing for CBD as much as getting rid of the THC and turning it to CBN. I think CBD content doesn't vary much from the CBDA percentage; if anything its decreased. CBD decarb temperature is 176*F and I'm using 250*F to decarb THC.

If I only cared about CBD I wouldn't go over 176*F during decarb or evaporation but THC limits your dose while a high CBD/reduced THC oil permits heavier doses without sending you to another planet.

Here's where I got that last tidbit on CBD decarb temp, no idea on the time though and like you said the internet is quite full of people talking about how to boost THC instead of trying to get rid of the head high.

CBD is not good for insomnia, nausea or appetite control so people receiving chemo might benefit more from a high THC strain.
 
I don't know who is correct on those boiling points or evaporation temps but boiling and decarb is not the same thing and to remove 1 you run the risk of destroying the other.

Just yesterday I got 6.5 ounces of a high THC strain called Hindu Kush. I will be turning it all into oil but in this case I will be boosting the THC. Its not what we are talking about but the process is the same, it just has a different decarb profile. The customer has terminal liver cancer, failed his chemo and got sent home to die. Doctors estimated he had 1 month to live, that was like 6 months ago.

After he got maxed out on morphine he started trying the RSO. He's gained weight, is not taking any analgesics at all (no morphine) and is in no pain, I'm not sure what is going on with his tumor but his health is improving; 3 words, quality of life.

He tried both high THC and reduced THC oils and although he did not have any pain with either he prefers the high THC one because it helps him sleep and gives him more appetite.

Another customer with Parkinson's likes both oils, high THC as nighttime medicine and a low THC/high CBD/CBN oil for the daytime.

I'll document the process, I just would rather not put them on youtube (too much exposure) but we'll figure something out.
 
Yes, very confused about decarboxylation. The info I am finding is opposite what you say, for the most part.

Extraction of pharmaceutically active components from plant materials - GW Pharma Limited
Decarboxylation of cannabinoid acids is a function of time and temperature, thus at higher temperatures a shorter period of time will be taken for complete decarboxylation of a given amount of cannabinoid acid. In selecting appropriate conditions for decarboxylation consideration must, however, be given to minimising thermal degradation of the desirable, pharmacological cannabinoids into undesirable degradation products, particularly thermal degradation of THC to cannabinol (CBN).

Preferably, decarboxylation is carried out in a multi-step heating process in which the plant material is:

i) heated to a first temperature for a first (relatively short) time period to evaporate off retained water and allow for uniform heating of the plant material; and
ii) the temperature is increased to a second temperature for a second time period (typically longer than the first time period) until at least 95% conversion of the acid cannabinoids to their neutral form has occurred.

Preferably the first step is conducted at a temperature in the range of 100° C. to 110° C. for 10–20 minutes. More preferably the first temperature is about 105° C. and the first time period is about 15 minutes.

If the plant material is derived from cannabis plants having a high CBD content (defined as >90% CBD as a percentage of total cannabinoid content), the second temperature is preferably in the range from 115° C. to 125° C., preferably about 120° C. and the second time period is in the range from 45 to 75 minutes, preferably about 60 minutes. More preferably the second temperature is in the range from 135° C. to 145° C., preferably 140° C. and the second time period is in the range from 15 to 45 minutes, preferably about 30 minutes. In another embodiment, most preferred for a mass of plant material greater than 4 kg, the second temperature is in the range from 140° C. to 150° C., preferably 145° C. and the second time period is in the range from 55–90 minutes. The latter conditions are preferred for processing amounts of, for example, 4–6 kg of starting plant material and the exact figures, particularly time, may vary slightly with increased mass.

If the plant material is derived from cannabis plants having a high THC content (defined as >90% THC as a percentage of total cannabinoid content), the second temperature is preferably in the range of 115° C. to 125° C., typically 120° C., and the second time period is preferably in the range of 45 minutes to 75 minutes, typically about 60 minutes. More preferably the second temperature is in the range of 100° C. to 110° C., typically 105° C., and the second time period is in the range of 60 to 120 minutes. In another embodiment, most preferred for a mass of plant material greater than 4 kg, the second temperature is in the range of 140° C. to 150° C., preferably 145° C., and the second time period is in the range of 45 to 55 minutes.

Most preferably the decarboxylation step is conducted at temperatures and for times which ensure at least 97% conversion of the acid cannabinoids to their neutral form, whilst ensuring thermal degradation of THC to CBN is less than 5%.
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Here gw pharma is saying to use a higher temp but a shorter duration, which does not seem to make a whole lot of sense to me. Another guy claims...

Decarboxylatiion of Marijuana Decarboxylating Cannabis for Maximum CBD Levels
For maximum CBD levels, decarb at 280° F for 1 hour.
For maximum THC levels, decarb at 280° F for 30 minutes.
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I have seen the sc labs vids before, in their thca lab, they do not specify temp. If you are using their temp for cbd, where are you getting your thc temp from? Could it be that the 176F temp is where cbda begins to decarbox but not the ideal temp, never mind duration?

I personally have witnessed a cbd hemp oil stimulate my cats appetite while suppressing her nausea. She had late term kidney disease and a cbd hemp oil carried in hemp seed oil brought her back from the brink.

Yes, quality of life.
 
Sorry, can not respond to pm's, count post too low.

Oy vey. Thanks for the information, perhaps why I am not getting any feedback on my rsoplus thread, which involves an additional extraction. I see decarboxylation as a key to the medicine profile, someone mentioned I should look to fractional distillation of cannabinoids, which makes sense and is of interest to me.

I have been discussing the method I would like to use for making the oil, which is to simply make an alchemical spagyric instead of the alchemical tincture. This I am theorizing would boost potential because we would be treating physical ailments with the physical aspect of the plant. Not to mention the subtle energies such as planetary influences and the alchemist's intent. Boosting potential and selecting proper genetics and proper decarboxylations I feel would lead to the most potent, specific disease profiled medicine that we are currently ready for. Alchemists claim this is still not the most powerful plant medicine.

I am looking forward to continued discussions with you, especially about decarboxylation which I am still trying to understand. I understand thca->thc->cbn, all having differing medicinal qualities and metabolites? Can I use decarboxylation to transform the thca to cbn while still retaining medicinal quantities and qualities of cbd and other cannabinoids. For those who are bound to tests but might benefit from all the other medicinal cannabinoids. Obviously you think not however other information and people seem to think so, I am confused.

I would love to hear about your concentration method!
 
Most normal healthy people can't feel a CBD high by itself and they need some THC in there so I'm a bit reluctant to go 280*F for that long just because some pothead says so. I have seen many websites and decarboxylation claims but I always refer back to this chart and I don't do several times and temperatures. 250*F for 27 minutes or 51 minutes.

decarb_graph_zps33f82670.jpg


A friend of mine used to do it in phases like you describe but when I made the oil it was so much stronger than when he made it and it was using a clone of the same plant so he pretty much stopped doing it and gave me the raw material.

He used an oven but never checked the thermostat so his decarb was way off.
 
GW Pharma, according to their patent is using 284f for 30 min after an initial heating at lower temp. Higher temp then they are using for thc decarb however it is for a shorter duration, which does not make sense to me. It also is quite a bit higher than sc labs claim of 176f. Lots of conflicting info out there.

Still interested in your concentration methods.
 
Hi friends, I am researching how to make the best medicine for tumor reduction... I am living with St 4 melanoma. I have access to high CBD raw material as well as high THC raw material. I've read about kief, mixing kief in veg glycerin, vaporizing, decarboxylation, RSOil, edibles, etc... I am ready and willing to experiment. My intent is to have the medicinal value of tumor reduction without being stoned. I do not have symptoms of pain or nausea to deal with. What is your recommendation for the best way to accomplish this? I am wondering if making kief (dry ice method,) would be the best way to preserve... deliver and assimilate the CBD. Thanks... I appreciate your thread here... this is my first post. Best to you, AnnAlive
 
I use this chart and the line for 250*F. I don't use several temperatures or several times. 27 minutes @ 250*F to boost THC and 51 minutes @ 250*F to reduce THC and convert it to CBN.

decarb_graph_zps33f82670.jpg
 
You could go 293*F for 7 minutes but go over a bit on the time and you'd be quickly losing THC. The 250*F line has a less pronounced drop so you could go a minute over with no real problems.

Preheating is fine as long as you don't go over 176*F (80*C) because then you are decarbing unintentionally.
 
AnnAlive said:
Hi friends, I am researching how to make the best medicine for tumor reduction… I am living with St 4 melanoma. I have access to high CBD raw material as well as high THC raw material. I've read about kief, mixing kief in veg glycerin, vaporizing, decarboxylation, RSOil, edibles, etc… I am ready and willing to experiment. My intent is to have the medicinal value of tumor reduction without being stoned. I do not have symptoms of pain or nausea to deal with. What is your recommendation for the best way to accomplish this? I am wondering if making kief (dry ice method,) would be the best way to preserve… deliver and assimilate the CBD. Thanks… I appreciate your thread here… this is my first post. Best to you, AnnAlive
Click to expand...

I recommend this method

Cannabis Oil Dosing Tutorial: Tacking Method

Mission Statement: This OPINION is a guide for people who have run out of all traditional medical options for cancer or other serious illness, have heard of concentrated cannabis oil and its healing properties, and want to treat themselves or a loved one in a safe manner. These opinions are...
www.420magazine.com
 
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