Yellowing middle leaves, 100% organic soil, slow release amendments

[KillerShroom]

Thanks for checking this out

This plant in the pictures is either White widow or Cheese fem/photo. They got mixed up as seedlings. The other plant is shorter and wide.

This is my second grow, second round of flowering in my growing experience which started in April. I haven't had time to sit down and start a grow journal on here but I mean to. Until then I'm having a yellow deficiency I'm looking for some assistance with. I'm hoping someone can yay or nay my theory and the fix.
I'm still learning how all this N-P-K works but I think I understand the basics. I'm pretty sure she's showing signs of a nitrogen deficiency. Today is just starting week 6 of flower. My first grow finished with an excess of nitrogen so as you could expect I'm a little hesitant to top feed with high nitrogen, especially so late in the flower stage. It looks like inter venial yellowing of the leaves which quickly turns into full yellow leaves which starts with the leaves in the middle/bottom of the plant and it's started working itself up and out to more upper and outer leaves. Mobile.

I'm flowering in an indoor 4x4 tent, 6" intake /exhaust fan and charcoal. It's lit with a Mars Hydro TS3000. Currently 100% @ 12". The lady in question is sitting in 5 gallon fabric with cocoa/perlite/worm casting/Down to Earth slow release amendments. I water between 6.8 - 6.5 PH, for the little organic soil critters that live in there. The soil itself right now is sitting at 7.0 Ph.
The yellowing has expanded since the last watering 2 days ago. The last watering had unsulfured molasses included and a top feed of worm castings, kelp meal, 0-0-22 langbeinite, 3-15-0 bone meal and 4-8-4 rose and flower mix. About 2/3 recommended dose per gallon. I think the top feed was a little late. I should have done it 2 weeks ago in week 4.
I have options at my disposal for top feeding to try and fix this deficiency. For the next watering I was going to top feed with a dose of one of these amendments: 6-1-2 Need seed meal, 5-4-2- Bio live, 6-6-0 Shrimp meal or 7-3-1 Bat guano. Which would be best ??

What would you experienced growers out there suggest in this situation ??? TIA!

Also, do you guys think she's a littlie skinny for week 6?

 

[013]

Hey Killer,

Welcome to the forums at 420...!

Ok first coco is not soil, it’s a totally inert grow media - there are zero nutrients in coco for your plant. Coco is meant to be fed every day with a low dose nutrient solution, it should never be allowed to dry out, it should never get plain water. Coco is DTW or drain to waste which is a low tech form of hydro growing, you should feed to 10% runoff every time. Your ph game is off.... again coco is hydro - not soil.

Its all good but you have (pardon the language) a bastardized method of growing. So there is another problem. Next hydro formats are typically sterile, but you have organic ferts in the mix with all the added amendments - said all that to get to..... amendments are not intended to feed the plant - they are there to feed the soil and the microbes break them down to make them available for the plant.

The question remains if microbes can thrive in a coco environment, I would imagine some could live but that would possibly depend on adding a product like real growers recharge every week or two.

Nope not nitrogen deficiency- all of those products have high N and are not advisable now. Weed uses high N and lower PK in veg cycle but in flower mode it needs little to no N and higher PK.

To your credit - you have good ingredients - but none are matched up for coco, ditch the coco and use a soil mix next time, or stick with coco and do bottle fed nutes. But your plant looks really good, no big issues at all.

I’m going to ask @bluter to weigh in

thats my 2 cents, see what other replies come in

 

[KillerShroom]

Hey Killer,

Welcome to the forums at 420...!

Ok first coco is not soil, it’s a totally inert grow media - there are zero nutrients in coco for your plant. Coco is meant to be fed every day with a low dose nutrient solution, it should never be allowed to dry out, it should never get plain water. Coco is DTW or drain to waste which is a low tech form of hydro growing, you should feed to 10% runoff every time. Your ph game is off.... again coco is hydro - not soil.

Its all good but you have (pardon the language) a bastardized method of growing. So there is another problem. Next hydro formats are typically sterile, but you have organic ferts in the mix with all the added amendments - said all that to get to..... amendments are not intended to feed the plant - they are there to feed the soil and the microbes break them down to make them available for the plant.

The question remains if microbes can thrive in a coco environment, I would imagine some could live but that would possibly depend on adding a product like real growers recharge every week or two.

Nope not nitrogen deficiency- all of those products have high N and are not advisable now. Weed uses high N and lower PK in veg cycle but in flower mode it needs little to no N and higher PK.

To your credit - you have good ingredients - but none are matched up for coco, ditch the coco and use a soil mix next time, or stick with coco and do bottle fed nutes.

I’m going to ask @bluter to weigh in

thats my 2 cents, see what other replies come in

Thanks for the reply. My apologies if I'm not suing the 100% correct vernacular. I'm still learning.

You are correct. Coca coir is not soil. It is the husks/fibers from a coconut shell and is neutral. This grow method I am using uses cocoa as the base to mix up a naturally balanced, mixed substrate. A 25/75 mix of worm casting/cocoa is used to introduce the living microbes to the cocoa. And the amendments all mix to make a complete organic substrate. Top fed about once a month. and watered once a week +/- with added unsulphured molasses. It's the method MR. Canuck uses on YouTube. It's actually sent me down a rabbit hole learning about organic no till soils. IT's extremely interesting. "Teaming with microbes" is an amazing book, as well as "True Living Organics"

I'm noticing the most popular reaction when someone reads cocoa coir is "USE liquid nutes". Unfortunately the salts and chelating agents used in liquid fertilizers will wreak havoc on an organic soil with living organisms. I've read that some liquid ferts. can be used sparingly but I don't want to chance it.
The living organisms that are beneficial and necessary for this method come from worm castings.


My yellowing leaves could be due to the plant being close to the end of flower but it's only week six and the trichomes are clear as glass. I expected at least 10 weeks for flower . The buds haven't even fattened up yet as you can see.

The problem seems to be moving like a mobile deficiency.

 

[bobrown14]

42 days in flower... looks like Senescence to me and perfectly normal.

Stop trying to "fix" the plant.

To grow organically all you need to do is provide all the ingredients in a soil mix and let the plant and microbes do their thing. Just water enough and now is a good time to water extra all the way down to harvest.

The yellowing is something plants do. Senescence

The large fan leaves have a different life cycle than the plant. They will yellow as the petiole begins to shut off the nutrients going to the fan leaves and create a 1 way valve where all stored nutrients go from the fan leaves back into the plant for reproduction (flowers).

This is normal.

You feed the soil not the plant. The soil microbes feed the plant.

2 things are happening:

Leaf Senescence and Abscission.

Suggest a google of these 2 terms and get the water pale out stop with the additions of nutrients that you have no idea the soil needs or not.

Patience is key.... you cant add stuff to soil and expect immediate result.

Suggest in the future if you think you're having a deficiency get some worm castings and kelp meal make a slurry with water and water that in. Wait 3 days ... if nothing changes you dont have a problem.

Some things plants do are normal. Take a look out the window you see fall colors? Your plants will (or should) do the same thing on the way down to harvest.

 

[KillerShroom]

42 days in flower... looks like Senescence to me and perfectly normal.

Stop trying to "fix" the plant.

To grow organically all you need to do is provide all the ingredients in a soil mix and let the plant and microbes do their thing. Just water enough and now is a good time to water extra all the way down to harvest.

The yellowing is something plants do. Senescence

The large fan leaves have a different life cycle than the plant. They will yellow as the petiole begins to shut off the nutrients going to the fan leaves and create a 1 way valve where all stored nutrients go from the fan leaves back into the plant for reproduction (flowers).

This is normal.

You feed the soil not the plant. The soil microbes feed the plant.

2 things are happening:

Leaf Senescence and Abscission.

Suggest a google of these 2 terms and get the water pale out stop with the additions of nutrients that you have no idea the soil needs or not.

Patience is key.... you cant add stuff to soil and expect immediate result.

Suggest in the future if you think you're having a deficiency get some worm castings and kelp meal make a slurry with water and water that in. Wait 3 days ... if nothing changes you dont have a problem.

Some things plants do are normal. Take a look out the window you see fall colors? Your plants will (or should) do the same thing on the way down to harvest.

Yeah. I think you're correct. I think I'm over reacting due the the flowering stage. I think I over watered also. I'm going to let it sit for a few days, let it dry out and just keep watching.

 

[KillerShroom]

Alright Bobbrown14, I haven't touched anything. Just watering as normal. The leaves are looking gross. The trichomes are still clear but the smell is almost gone. When I squeeze a bud I cant smell it anymore. And the discoloration seems to be moving to the sugar leaves. It doesn't look good IMO. PH is still great. Any thoughts ???

 

[013]

@bobrown14

 

[KillerShroom]

@bobrown14

Thanks 013! I'm not too savvy with the forums

 

[bobrown14]

The last pics looks like something going on in the root zone. How much sugar are you adding to your waterings??

Adding too much or along with too much water you can actually promote anaerobic conditions. The wrong microbes take over the root zone. You soil will smell off, you gotta get close to tell.

I use malted barley ground fine in my soil mix and add 1/3 cup at up-pot. The malted barley is a catalyst for microbial activity.

What about your plants ?? I'd just water without any sugar and wait for the soil to dry a little bit. If the soil is waterlogged and you have a funky smell report back.

Thats not good I'd probably water next with some em-1 try to get the balance back.

Do you have proper drainage going on??

 

[013]

The smell will change as the plant moves thru flower cycle, plus your nose is accustomed to the growing plant so you can’t pick up the scent any longer. Rub the stem and then smell of your hand.... that should let you get a good sample of her aroma

 

[bobrown14]

I was talking about the smell of the soil!! anaerobic soil will smell funky and noticeable.

 

[KillerShroom]

Thanks for the replies, guys. The problem is an excess of potassium ( symptoms; calcium, magnesium, zinc and iron deficiencies ) It all fits. I cant keep my hands out of the amendment boxes. On my first grow I had an excess of nitrogen due to adding extra bat guano too late. On this, my second grow it's an excess of potassium.

I currently have 2 plants in 2 different pots exhibiting the exact same symptoms. EXTREME. All green leaves are about gone. Both plants I added extra Langbeinite about a month ago. MY third plant that I didn't add anything extra to is doing great. ( 3 different strains )

I'm starting to understand no matter how many books you read or how much you learn, you can't force it. You have to let the plant do it's thing. As much as I love the mostly " hands off" method of the slow release amendments maybe I should try liquid nutes since I cant keep my hands off the plant. lol

The last pics looks like something going on in the root zone. How much sugar are you adding to your waterings??

Adding too much or along with too much water you can actually promote anaerobic conditions. The wrong microbes take over the root zone. You soil will smell off, you gotta get close to tell.

I use malted barley ground fine in my soil mix and add 1/3 cup at up-pot. The malted barley is a catalyst for microbial activity.

What about your plants ?? I'd just water without any sugar and wait for the soil to dry a little bit. If the soil is waterlogged and you have a funky smell report back.

Thats not good I'd probably water next with some em-1 try to get the balance back.

Do you have proper drainage going on??

I only add sugars along with a worm casting compost tea about once a month. In the interim I bottom water my 5 gallon fabric pots about 1/2 gallon every 3 - 5 days. Water from my tap is 22 PPM. The substrate isn't putting off any weird smells.

I think my only issue with growing is my inability to leave my plants alone, trust the process and allow them to grow and fatten up when they're ready, not when I think they're ready to get fat.

5 days ago I removed as much loose top soil as I could and tried "rinsing" the substrate through with about 5 gallons of water. In a couple days on my next watering I will be adding a 'worm casting only' tea to get those microbes back. Using this grow method I'm not sure if you can really 'rinse' the soil since there are no readily available nutes, but I have nothing else to lose so why not. The plants look like garbage and they're about 2-3 weeks from cutting down.

Thanks for the help guys

 

[Emilya Green]

I only add sugars along with a worm casting compost tea about once a month.

This is the problem. A simple worm casting tea is not a proper tea. A tea must supply the microbes that tend to the elements that the plant is calling for at this stage of the game... if you can't supply those specific workhorses into the system at the right time, you get deficiencies.

Proper microbes is the key to organic growing. If you are doing it the hard way, by brewing your own teas, you need to target those teas to the stage of the grow and enhance the growth of certain microbes, while allowing others not to thrive. These targeted teas actually use a small amount of the nutrient you are needing to feed the plant, but in microdoses just so that those specific microbes thrive in your brew, while others die out. A WC tea is like taking a shotgun to the task... throwing all known microbes at the tea at once, and after the free for all that ensues in the bucket, the ones that survive the battle are what you put in your soil, but most likely they are not the microbes that were needed.

So the symptoms fit... you have several deficiencies going on... because you didn't supply the needed microbes.

You need a microbial superpack, in a very bad way. Apply one of these, a super tea with just the right microbes, and watch your grow totally turn around in 48 hours. You have tried several things.. now it is time to try a different approach.... you have nothing to lose.

I recommend realgrower's recharge for this job if you can get it. There are other versions of this product in other parts of the world.

If you would like to eliminate this entire hassle and always have the correct raw minerals and the associated microbes doing their jobs, in the easiest organic growing method available to 21st century gardeners, check out my method of choice, @GeoFlora Nutrients, one of this forums sponsors and very deserving of our business, and they provide a discount code for our members. It is good stuff.... all organic. Simply top dress the granules in once every 2 weeks and presto... you have the minerals needed and the microbes, and some extra food for the microbes all working hard in your grow. Check out any of my recent journals to see the results of this method of gardening.

 

[ZeroTolerance]

I definitely agree with everyone that having a healthy soil environment and beneficial microbes is good for cannabis growth. I primarily grow with synthetic nutrients though, so I have a different perspective which might be useful here.

Going back to the basics, the issue you posted originally was yellowing of old leaves and slow growth. As far as I can tell, that's pretty classic nitrogen deficiency, which might have been corrected by just adding more fertilizer.

Feeding soil microbes is all well and good, but how can they deliver nutrients to the plant if there are no nutrients in the soil? I think Emilya's suggestion that you use a single fertilizer with all the necessary nutrients is great. As growers we often try to correct single deficiencies by adding single fertilizer or supplements and throw off the balance. Keeping it simple and raising or lowering the levels of a complete fertilizer keeps things in balance.

If it were me I'd probably just use MegaCrop, but if you want to stay organic GeoFlora looks like a good choice. You could probably keep using the amendments and teas, but keep the complete fertilizer available so you have something to fall back on.

 

[bobrown14]

I currently have 2 plants in 2 different pots exhibiting the exact same symptoms. EXTREME. All green leaves are about gone. Both plants I added extra Langbeinite about a month ago. MY third plant that I didn't add anything extra to is doing great. ( 3 different strains )

OK so there's your answer - langbeinite.

Langbeinite is sold under any number of names but the farmer would know it as Sulfate of Potash Magnesia - Sulfate of Potash with Magnesia - a term for Magnesium Oxide whichv is a water soluble form. Chemical formula - K2Mg2(SO4)3.



I've never ever added Mg any to my soil mix and I've used it continuously for 6 years now.

Also some of the different versions of langbeinite/K-mag contain high amounts of chlorine. What version did you use??

Question is now how to "fix". Let me know the version of your k-mag you used.