What does fishboning of roots in hydro indicate?

[Azimuth]

I am experimenting with a water reservoir below my soil medium in an organic grow. My set-up is much like Earthboxes or Global Buckets and I have the medium in clear pots so I can learn how roots interact in the transition zone.

I have noticed that once the roots hit the water reservoir that they start pretty aggressively fishboning and I wonder what that indicates. I assume it means the roots are pretty healthy and happy but I really don't know.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[013]

Hey Azimuth- every time I’ve seen fish bone roots it’s on hydro plants that hit the res and are zooming along but I’m always happy to learn more from the pros.

I do think it’s a hydro mutation where the roots have converted from the soil side to the hydro side if that makes sense but WTF do I know????

 

[Azimuth]

Thanks, 013.

Plants definitely have water roots, air roots and soil roots and these water roots have a different structure from the soil roots. Much thicker in addition to the fishboning.

Also, they seem to change even before they hit the rez, kind of like they are anticipating the water. Maybe it's evaporation that keeps the soil wetter right there at the bottom or something else that signals them.

Pretty interesting.

 

[Azimuth]

Let me tag a few hydro growers and see if any have input.

@Rexer @FelipeBlu @bluter @Hafta @West Hippie @Buds Buddy @Delps8 @Sativa1970

I am experimenting with a water reservoir below my soil medium in an organic grow. My set-up is much like Earthboxes or Global Buckets and I have the medium in clear pots so I can learn how roots interact in the transition zone.

I have noticed that once the roots hit the water reservoir that they start pretty aggressively fishboning and I wonder what that indicates. I assume it means the roots are pretty healthy and happy but I really don't know.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Rexer]

I admit my ignorance when it comes to this. I know I've read a bit on it, but my memory isn't top notch.

So let me tag someone whom I know, knows, or has talked about it before...
@Tokin Roll can you help?

 

[Hafta]

My thoughts are:
The roots no longer need to follow the water (draining) to access nutrients so they expand in every direction. I see this in hydro . I also experienced this in an outdoor, above ground soil container grow when I grew in a large raised bed (2' x 3' x 1 1/2'). I watered the entire surface and the roots spread at will, no root ball.

I believe you have very healthy roots.
Similar to these?

 

[Azimuth]

So let me tag someone whom I know, knows, or has talked about it before...
@Tokin Roll can you help?

Thanks, Rexer. I figure you hydro growers see this more often so someone in your world must know.

I believe you have very healthy roots.
Similar to these?

Yeah, not quite. Lol. But, it's only been a couple of weeks so maybe one day. After about two weeks mine look like a single main root with side branching every few millimeters on both sides. Looks just like a fish skeleton.

I'm doing this in 'takeout' 1L clear containers and then slip them into a cover cup. My set up is a 1" reservoir in the bottom defined by a "hempy-type" hole at the 1" mark, and then a series of holes higher up.

The reservoir is filled with hydroton up to about 1.5", and then topped with soil. That way there is a 1/2" gap between the bottom of the soil and the top of the water reservoir which hopefully keeps the organic soil from getting too wet and going anaerobic.

So far I've only kept a very low level of water in the rez, so have not filled it completely. I've noticed that the roots fishbone from the ends all the way up into the soil where I can no longer see it, but very extensively all throughout the slightly moist hydroton, even the stuff that's not sitting in the water.

I have to say, that even after only a couple of weeks that these are the happiest plants in the garden. Frankly, I'm pretty surprised at the results so quickly.

And, so far at least, it is only water in the rez, no nutes except what they can find in the soil part.

 

[Tokin Roll]

Correct me if I am wrong, the question sounds like you want to know about the difference between soil roots and water roots?
If that is correct read thought this and let me know if if helps. I have more.

What’s the differences between water and soil roots?​

The first difference between soil roots and water roots is in their physical structure. Soil roots are thicker, having to reach further and deeper than water roots to access enough nutrients and water for. Due to the easier access to water and nutrients, water roots are thin, small, and relatively fragile.

Another difference between water and soil roots is in their energy requirement. Water roots require less energy and time to grow compared to soil roots. Indeed, it is a common practice to start plants (often stems) in a cup of water, and only after they develop the first roots (water type) transfer them to the soil.

The third difference between water and soil roots is in the root hair. Water roots, being constantly submerged, are finer, and have more hairs.

Water roots evolved to breathe underwater. They can extract oxygen that naturally dissolves in water through also a higher surface porosity (more gas can go in and out), as discussed in this study. Soil roots are not able to do that. That also explains why they tend to suffocate (and then rot) in case they are waterlogged.

Finally, the fifth difference is in their color. Water roots are generally white, while soil roots tend to be yellowish or brown (partially due to the soil). Be careful; discoloration, such as brown water roots, mushy, and light brown, are an indication of root rot.

Stay safe, and grow well my friend,
Tok..

 

[Azimuth]

Thanks, Tokin.

No. I understand there are different types of roots, soil, water and air.

Never having done a hydroponic grow, I've not seen water roots, so when I saw the fishboning I was wondering if it were normal, and what, if anything, it could indicate about the health of the plant and roots.

Since the fishboning is so vigorous once the roots hit the rez, I assume that must mean they are happy. And your reference to water roots "having more hairs" must be what I am seeing.

It's interesting in my set up that the roots start out in soil and as they grow longer they find the rez and turn into water roots.

So, you've got more? I'm always interested in learning. Lay it on me. Whatcha got?

 

[Delps8]

Never heard the term "fishboning roots" but understand that it's a description. It would be interesting to see a photo.

Re. growing in hydro vs soil - there are differences in the medium, the primary one being that there's no impediment to roots growing "optimally" in water. In water, roots don't have to push their way through the denser medium of soil so they can grow as very quickly and there's nothing to constrain the shape of the root ball or the shape of the root hairs themselves.

The pictures that @Hafta has posted look very similar to roots that I've seen in my hydro setup. The color that's been picked up is a function of chemicals in the res water. I switched to Jacks for my most recent grow. The roots were a uniform cream white color until I added some leftover "magic elixirs" from my previous grows when I used Botanicare nutes. Pure Blend Tea is a deep brown color and, after adding nute mix when I did a new res, the roots picked up that color.

All in all, as long as the roots continue to grow, lengthwise and in their diameter, "proceed directly ahead".

 

[Azimuth]

Thanks, Delps.

This is an experiment for me and the container is based on Earthboxes and Global Buckets that combine soil grows with a water reservoir below. Only a couple of weeks in but I'm pretty impressed so far.

 

[Delps8]

Thanks, Delps.

This is an experiment for me and the container is based on Earthboxes and Global Buckets that combine soil grows with a water reservoir below. Only a couple of weeks in but I'm pretty impressed so far.

Sounds like an interesting set up. It would be great if you could post some pictures when time allows.

 

[Delps8]

Never heard the term "fishboning roots" but understand that it's a description. It would be interesting to see a photo.

Re. growing in hydro vs soil - there are differences in the medium, the primary one being that there's no impediment to roots growing "optimally" in water. In water, roots don't have to push their way through the denser medium of soil so they can grow as very quickly and there's nothing to constrain the shape of the root ball or the shape of the root hairs themselves.

The pictures that @Hafta has posted look very similar to roots that I've seen in my hydro setup. The color that's been picked up is a function of chemicals in the res water. I switched to Jacks for my most recent grow. The roots were a uniform cream white color until I added some leftover "magic elixirs" from my previous grows when I used Botanicare nutes. Pure Blend Tea is a deep brown color and, after adding nute mix when I did a new res, the roots picked up that color.

All in all, as long as the roots continue to grow, lengthwise and in their diameter, "proceed directly ahead".

I was re-reading the posting from Tokin Roll (good info) and I suspect that a difference in the shape of roots in water vs soil is that they're cylindrical with a very small diameter because that shape increases the amount of surface area for a given amount of root material within the root itself.

Using arbitrary numbers, given two cylinders, one with a radius of 3 units and one with a radius of 6 units, both having a length of 10, the amount of root material increases by a factor of 4 yet the increase in surface area is only 2.5 x. Flip that over and this indicates that, all other factors being equal, the morphology that maximizes exposure to the nutrient water in the res is numerous, slender roots rather than fewer, larger roots.