What bugs can live in bagged soil?

[OG Sinse]

I'll try to keep this post short, what kind of bugs/eggs can live in bagged soil?

I live in the Southern East Coast of the US. I have many nurseries to shop from and almost all of them store their soil outdoors. While shopping for soil at all my local nurseries, I've noticed flies hovering around the bag soils. I've also noticed the same thing with soil stored indoors. Flies every where.

So, I'm trying to figure out what type of pest could be attracted to soil. Fungus Gnats are almost guaranteed where I live, and this makes sense. Fungus Gnats look for wet/moist soil and lay eggs. I'm OK with fungus gnats, they are easy to handle with BTI... But what else may be lurking in the soil? I have no idea. (Fungus Gnats eat fungus which is present in bagged soil---But what else can be attracted to soil alone?)

Is it possible to get Broad Mites, Spider Mites, White Flies, Aphids, etc.. in a bag of soil? Why would they be attracted to soil without a plant? Does a bag of Fox Farm have a possibility that it will contain something like Mites or Aphids? How long can they stay in a bag of soil without a plant to feed off of?

Since I'm really not sure, I bake and boil my soil to 180 degrees which I hate to do, but I hate Aphids and Mites a lot more. Yep, I kill all the "beneficials" as trade off.

I cant tell you all how much time I've spent researching this, there isn't a lot of information.... Sorry I typed so much, I really try not to ! Lets try to trim my question down. Lets take a bag of Fox Farm Soil straight from the factory and leave it outside with a few tears in the bag... What can I expect to see get into my soil?

 

[Phytoplankton]

Probably not mites, they really don't have any part of their life cycle in soil, but they could be overwintering in there. Same with aphids and whiteflies, they overwinter on plants, not soil. Pretty much any insect that has a stage of the their life cycle that lives in soil could be there, such as thrips. There can also be beneficial insects in the soil. Most of the insect problems are from the way the soil is stored once it leaves the manufacturer. Outdoor storage is normally where the problems occur. The blackflies you see are attracted to the smell of decaying matter, but they are not the problem. I have used FFOF for years and have never had any issues (but I also live pretty close to where it's manufactured, so it's very fresh and hasn't been sitting around). I store mine outdoors, on a pallet off the ground and covered with a tarp. Most of the time in an indoor grow you bring the mites in on your clothing, or by bringing a plant or tools that were outside, inside without disinfecting. I've never had aphids during an indoor grow. Boiling and cooking your soil will work, but it will also kill all the good fungus and micro-organisms.

 

[SmokingWings]

Is it possible to get Broad Mites, Spider Mites, White Flies, Aphids, etc.. in a bag of soil? Why would they be attracted to soil without a plant?

There is a chance you will come across just about any insect that spends one or more stages of its life cycle in soil. They are there in hibernation, or a pupae stage or even part of an adult stage. Any one of those can attract an insect to a bag or pot of soil. It is not necessary for there to be a living plant at the same time.

I bake and boil my soil to 180 degrees which I hate to do, but I hate Aphids and Mites a lot more. Yep, I kill all the "beneficials" as trade off.

Spider Mites do not live in soil. If they fall off the plant they will try to get back up to the leaves. Aphids are the same...unless it is Root Aphids and they will live in the soil. And, the only time I have come across Root Aphids is when I am trying to get a cutting to start rooting in damp soil. If the cutting already has healthy roots then I do not see them.

I don't sterilize my soil. To me it is not worth the time.

Just got the msg that @Phytoplankton posted a msg and I see he is mentioning the same.

 

[OG Sinse]

Probably not mites, they really don't have any part of their life cycle in soil, but they could be overwintering in there. Same with aphids and whiteflies, they overwinter on plants, not soil. Pretty much any insect that has a stage of the their life cycle that lives in soil could be there, such as thrips. There can also be beneficial insects in the soil. Most of the insect problems are from the way the soil is stored once it leaves the manufacturer. Outdoor storage is normally where the problems occur. The blackflies you see are attracted to the smell of decaying matter, but they are not the problem. I have used FFOF for years and have never had any issues (but I also live pretty close to where it's manufactured, so it's very fresh and hasn't been sitting around). I store mine outdoors, on a pallet off the ground and covered with a tarp. Most of the time in an indoor grow you bring the mites in on your clothing, or by bringing a plant or tools that were outside, inside without disinfecting. I've never had aphids during an indoor grow. Boiling and cooking your soil will work, but it will also kill all the good fungus and micro-organisms.

There are two flies that I see coming out of my closet. (where I store Fox Farm Happy Gnat soil)... Fungus Gnats, easy to swatch and catch. You can clap your hands and kill fungus gnats. The other fly looks exactly like a fungus gnat, but is difficult to kill. They can dodge you easily and are very difficult to kill with the clap technique. I fear that these are Aphid Flyers, but can they live in soil without a plant? if So how long?

Anyway, yep I know I'm killing good things baking and boiling my soil. I add back Mykos, Great White, Recharge etc....to get life going in the soil. I'm a gardening hypochondriac now and worry all the time so unfortunately I'll continue to boil and bake my soil. These dam pests are almost impossible to see !

 

[OG Sinse]

There is a chance you will come across just about any insect that spends one or more stages of its life cycle in soil. They are there in hibernation, or a pupae stage or even part of an adult stage. Any one of those can attract an insect to a bag or pot of soil. It is not necessary for there to be a living plant at the same time.


Spider Mites do not live in soil. If they fall off the plant they will try to get back up to the leaves. Aphids are the same...unless it is Root Aphids and they will live in the soil. And, the only time I have come across Root Aphids is when I am trying to get a cutting to start rooting in damp soil. If the cutting already has healthy roots then I do not see them.

I don't sterilize my soil. To me it is not worth the time.

Just got the msg that @Phytoplankton posted a msg and I see he is mentioning the same.

I only grow one plant at a time, boiling and baking the soil is easy but I imagine this would be a big hassle for large scale grows.

One plant at a time and I have more weed than I can possibly smoke. I'm taking a 6 month break from growing as well to catch up and finish my weed from previous harvests ! I've got weed curing for 2 years now and its losing its potency.....

I smoke daily as well and one plant is too much weed. So, I'll just keep on boiling my soil to help cure my paranoia/grower hypochondriac worries...

Thanks for the response, much appreciated.

 

[013]

it’s easy for any bagged soil to carry pests. I use bulk rice hulls and they seem to come with soil mites baked in.

I’ve used this same trick with tubs of rice hulls as well as new bagged soil or old soils to be recycled….


Don’t know with any certainty but I suspect many bagged soil critters just go dormant but get jump started when we pop it in a container and add water….

what I’ve found that helps me is to recook the soil but not in the oven… I take a clean 35 gallon plastic trash can, to the bottom I add about half gallon of water, BTi via mosquito bits, plus I spray in a mix of Spinosad and BTk coating the bottom and sides, fill with soil, water it in and them finish by adding more mosquito bits and spraying the top and edges of the soil with more Spinosad & BTk….

Snap a lid on it and let it sweat for 45 days… the bin needs to heat up so no dark basements or indoor concrete slabs, place it outdoors where it will get few hours of direct sun exposure each day…

you can use same method to cook in microbes, mycos, or any other soil amendments….

 

[OG Sinse]

it’s easy for any bagged soil to carry pests. I use bulk rice hulls and they seem to come with soil mites baked in.

I’ve used this same trick with tubs of rice hulls as well as new bagged soil or old soils to be recycled….


Don’t know with any certainty but I suspect many bagged soil critters just go dormant but get jump started when we pop it in a container and add water….

what I’ve found that helps me is to recook the soil but not in the oven… I take a clean 35 gallon plastic trash can, to the bottom I add about half gallon of water, BTi via mosquito bits, plus I spray in a mix of Spinosad and BTk coating the bottom and sides, fill with soil, water it in and them finish by adding more mosquito bits and spraying the top and edges of the soil with more Spinosad & BTk….

Snap a lid on it and let it sweat for 45 days… the bin needs to heat up so no dark basements or indoor concrete slabs, place it outdoors where it will get few hours of direct sun exposure each day…

you can use same method to cook in microbes, mycos, or any other soil amendments….

Thanks so much ! Here is a classic example of cannabis growing terms meaning two completely different things.

Cooking soil

Yes, I cook and boil my soil, but I have thought hard and long about trying your cooking method for many reasons. So, there is definition 1: cooking the soil (boil, steam, bake, or microwave) and definition 2: letting the soil "cook" naturally, allowing all the life to decompose the soil...Done correctly this should heat up the soil without any heat added, and as you say "no cold basements or chilly floors"... I also love that you start off with BTI, something I use for the first two waterings after adding soil to a pot. I have zero fungus gnats now but am almost 100% guaranteed to get them without BTI...

I have a soil bin, unfortunately in a basement, so I'm not sure I can fully cook as you mention but I may try allowing the soil to "cook" (Def 2) for a few months before usage. I have a pet rabbit and mixing a little rabbit manure into the cooking process might do good things. Thanks for the tip, you have me interested in trying this now. (in between grows now)

Rice Hulls

Dam man, sorry to write a book back at you, but I was blown away when you mentioned rice hulls ! I don't see a lot of talk about them but I have been considering their use to help aerate my muddy Fox Farm Soil. (with added perlite)... You've already warned about soil mites coming in rice hull so you beat me to the question what buds can come in rice hulls. How well do rice hulls work for you and what good things do they do? I'm hoping the soil mites are friendly, but any mite makes me very nervous.Any tips using rice hulls would be greatly appreciated!


Thanks much man for all the good ideas here. Now I'm off to google Spinosad and BTk..

 

[OG Sinse]

When I originally posted this thread, I had hoped that people might cross a few pests off my list of soil hypochondria. (I think I have mites, white flies, aphids, etc.... But cant see them anywhere...

I was really hoping people would say things like spider mites cant live or overwinter in soil..(as an example).... I'm sure that their are some pests that are only interested in a living plant, why would they be interested in soil alone? I On top of that, if pests are in the soil, how long can they live? Lets say, as an example, I have spider mites or spider mite eggs in my soil. How long can they live in soil alone? As you can see I have a million questions.

Anyway, this may be an overly complex question that not many have an answer for. I cant find anything about pests living in bagged soil searching the internet...So, with this in mind, I will be boiling and baking my soil which isn't too bad for a small grower like me.

And as the great song says.... Paranoia thought destroyah !... (I forget which song this is) I'll send a like to anyone that knows...Yes, I worry too much--- that's why I love smoking weed !

 

[Justin Goody]

Fox Farm soils come with beneficial mites that eat other harmful mites.

They are huge and white compared to normally reddish or multicolored spider mites, scared the crap out of me the first time I saw them crawling all over a black pot

 

[OG Sinse]

Fox Farm soils come with beneficial mites that eat other harmful mites.

They are huge and white compared to normally reddish or multicolored spider mites, scared the crap out of me the first time I saw them crawling all over a black pot

Thanks, Ive never seen anything like this yet, but its good to know there is such a thing as beneficial mites. I'm older though and have a hell of a time seeing anything, even with a loupe. If I had beneficial mites chances are I'd over worry about them.

 

[013]

Thanks so much ! Here is a classic example of cannabis growing terms meaning two completely different things.

Cooking soil

Yes, I cook and boil my soil, but I have thought hard and long about trying your cooking method for many reasons. So, there is definition 1: cooking the soil (boil, steam, bake, or microwave) and definition 2: letting the soil "cook" naturally, allowing all the life to decompose the soil...Done correctly this should heat up the soil without any heat added, and as you say "no cold basements or chilly floors"... I also love that you start off with BTI, something I use for the first two waterings after adding soil to a pot. I have zero fungus gnats now but am almost 100% guaranteed to get them without BTI...

I have a soil bin, unfortunately in a basement, so I'm not sure I can fully cook as you mention but I may try allowing the soil to "cook" (Def 2) for a few months before usage. I have a pet rabbit and mixing a little rabbit manure into the cooking process might do good things. Thanks for the tip, you have me interested in trying this now. (in between grows now)

Rice Hulls

Dam man, sorry to write a book back at you, but I was blown away when you mentioned rice hulls ! I don't see a lot of talk about them but I have been considering their use to help aerate my muddy Fox Farm Soil. (with added perlite)... You've already warned about soil mites coming in rice hull so you beat me to the question what buds can come in rice hulls. How well do rice hulls work for you and what good things do they do? I'm hoping the soil mites are friendly, but any mite makes me very nervous.Any tips using rice hulls would be greatly appreciated!


Thanks much man for all the good ideas here. Now I'm off to google Spinosad and BTk..

Hey thanks for the kind words OG and big apologies for ghosting, sadly I’ve got big meeting later today.. so I’ll try keep it short and hopefully circle back later.

The cool thing is rabbit & goat manure are pretty much ready to use but slow cooking in a tub does no harm either..

Typically you want to cook about a trash cans worth of soil at a time, if you use smaller tubs then it needs to cook longer. It really helps if the soil bin is in warm location or exposed to direct sunlight few hours each day. If basement or garage is only option then elevate the soil bin up on pallet cuz an indoor or covered concrete slab temp stays at 55 degrees all year long, which is not conducive to internal thermally cooking your soil. To thermal cook soil it needs to be watered in and I often hit it with biological critter control like Spinosad, BTi & BTk, but that’s totally your call. I spray the empty tub sides & bottom with water plus biologicals mentioned then add soil, spray another layer of water + biologicals, as the saying goes- lather, rinse, repeat; then finish by spraying top of soil and inside the lid. Snap the lid on and in few days when you remove the lid it should smell musty and inside of the lid should be covered with trapped condensation. Yes the water mixing with soil ingredients is what activates the thermal soil cooking process… let it sit in place, don’t stir or disrupt the soil mix. 30 days is minimum but if you are cooking lots of ingredients & amendments them I’d aim for 45 days as minimum cook time.

Beautifully! Rice hulls are now permanently part of my grow deal. Working on my 2nd 50 pound bale, local grow shop was doing 50 pound bales for $45… Rice hulls are high in silica content, provide extra aeration yet better soil moisture retention, they serve as a source of carbon for the plant, works well as top dress mulch layer. Rice hull ash is supposed to be the bomb as well, tried it few times but not sure if my ratio of ash to soil was off but didn’t really notice any impact positive or negative on that one.

Yep the soil mites I’ve encountered… both before I started using rices hulls as well as the ones that came with the rice hulls are a non issue, they don’t attack the plant. For 2 grow cycles I tried to kill soil mites. Nothing I tried put a dent in the population, they kept marching in circles on the bucket rim… finally I grasped don’t fight an imaginary battle dude! I’m in cloth pots now so I don’t see them even after watering and assume they are gone

On this 2nd bale it seems the mites are dormant or completely gone, not sure what’s up with that but no biggie either way.

Hope it helps!

 

[OG Sinse]

Hey thanks for the kind words OG and big apologies for ghosting, sadly I’ve got big meeting later today.. so I’ll try keep it short and hopefully circle back later.

The cool thing is rabbit & goat manure are pretty much ready to use but slow cooking in a tub does no harm either..

Typically you want to cook about a trash cans worth of soil at a time, if you use smaller tubs then it needs to cook longer. It really helps if the soil bin is in warm location or exposed to direct sunlight few hours each day. If basement or garage is only option then elevate the soil bin up on pallet cuz an indoor or covered concrete slab temp stays at 55 degrees all year long, which is not conducive to internal thermally cooking your soil. To thermal cook soil it needs to be watered in and I often hit it with biological critter control like Spinosad, BTi & BTk, but that’s totally your call. I spray the empty tub sides & bottom with water plus biologicals mentioned then add soil, spray another layer of water + biologicals, as the saying goes- lather, rinse, repeat; then finish by spraying top of soil and inside the lid. Snap the lid on and in few days when you remove the lid it should smell musty and inside of the lid should be covered with trapped condensation. Yes the water mixing with soil ingredients is what activates the thermal soil cooking process… let it sit in place, don’t stir or disrupt the soil mix. 30 days is minimum but if you are cooking lots of ingredients & amendments them I’d aim for 45 days as minimum cook time.

Beautifully! Rice hulls are now permanently part of my grow deal. Working on my 2nd 50 pound bale, local grow shop was doing 50 pound bales for $45… Rice hulls are high in silica content, provide extra aeration yet better soil moisture retention, they serve as a source of carbon for the plant, works well as top dress mulch layer. Rice hull ash is supposed to be the bomb as well, tried it few times but not sure if my ratio of ash to soil was off but didn’t really notice any impact positive or negative on that one.

Yep the soil mites I’ve encountered… both before I started using rices hulls as well as the ones that came with the rice hulls are a non issue, they don’t attack the plant. For 2 grow cycles I tried to kill soil mites. Nothing I tried put a dent in the population, they kept marching in circles on the bucket rim… finally I grasped don’t fight an imaginary battle dude! I’m in cloth pots now so I don’t see them even after watering and assume they are gone

On this 2nd bale it seems the mites are dormant or completely gone, not sure what’s up with that but no biggie either way.

Hope it helps!

Thanks ! I was hoping rice hulls might help aeration and drainage. My fox farm soil is great in smaller containers, but has a tendency to wick and hold a ton of water right in the middle of larger containers. (basically, the very center, or core of my soil is way too wet).. I've even tried planting my plants off center towards the side to help keep the roots out of the underground swamp. (works well). I water lightly as well, every 3-4 days using a scale to weigh dry and wet weight.

Now off to shop for rice hulls. Thanks for the advice on soil cooking as well.

 

[013]

Hey it’s my pleasure!

Quick question- are you using hardside containers or fabric smart pots? Hard-side containers will retain water longer than a smart pot!

The other thing is a grate sitting above a drip pan with few inches of airspace between the two…. to really step it up, one of the small 4 inch usb desk fans are ideal for air movement under either a hard-side container or a smart pot… water is impacted by gravity but add in the airflow underneath and it helps evap the water

Lastly if it’s hardside containers try this hat trick… water your plant on watering day, after a few hours of drying time empty the drip pans, replace drip pans under the plant but rig a way for plant container to sit at a steep 45 degree angle, prop then so they won’t roll or tip over. Leave them propped at steep angle for a couple of hours… then come back and look at your drip pans, she probs took a big whizz and peed out excess water…you just reset water table to lower level and shaved a day off your wet dry cycle… you can do it again on the 2nd day after watering but she won’t pee nearly as much the 2nd time around. however this procedure doesn’t seem to work as well for smart pots

 

[013]

prop then so they won’t roll or tip over.

Whoops… prop them so they won’t roll or tip over

 

[bluter]

Probably not mites, they really don't have any part of their life cycle in soil, but they could be overwintering in there.

spider mites don't really overwinter in soil. they can overwinter on or in debris in the soil like twigs etc., but they don't dig into the soil itself. once things warm up they need plant life to continue.

common two-spot spider mites don't have blood, they have glycol in their circulation system, it's the same stuff that keeps anti-freeze in a liquid state. they can go dormant at low temps and then reanimate when things warm up. their eggs essentially do the same and will remain dormant at low temps.

it's possible for spider mites to be in a bag of soil, but it's a long shot they'd survive long enough without a plant to support them.

gnats are another story.

 

[OG Sinse]

Hey it’s my pleasure!

Quick question- are you using hardside containers or fabric smart pots? Hard-side containers will retain water longer than a smart pot!

I'm using cloth pots, either 3 gallon or 5 depending on my mood. The pots sit on a circular grate with a drain pan underneath. If watered heavily, even cloth pots will have a wicking effect, pulling water to center. You can tilt the pots after watering and it will come pouring out... (showing that a lot of water is being held in the center.) Without tilting, the water stays.

The other thing is a grate sitting above a drip pan with few inches of airspace between the two…. to really step it up, one of the small 4 inch usb desk fans are ideal for air movement under either a hard-side container or a smart pot… water is impacted by gravity but add in the airflow underneath and it helps evap the water

Lastly if it’s hardside containers try this hat trick… water your plant on watering day, after a few hours of drying time empty the drip pans, replace drip pans under the plant but rig a way for plant container to sit at a steep 45 degree angle, prop then so they won’t roll or tip over.

Too funny man, you know your stuff ! I didn't read this until after posting above.Yes, I use the tilt method you mention. this shows how the wicking effect works.This is my point, without tilting, a lot of water stays in the soil, right in the center. It is unbelievable how much water comes out after the tilt.

Leave them propped at steep angle for a couple of hours… then come back and look at your drip pans, she probs took a big whizz and peed out excess water…you just reset water table to lower level and shaved a day off your wet dry cycle… you can do it again on the 2nd day after watering but she won’t pee nearly as much the 2nd time around. however this procedure doesn’t seem to work as well for smart pots

I'm blown away that you beat me to this, the tilt that is. I've done a lot of reading on this subject and have learned about water tables, perched water tables,wicking etc.. Watering a plant from below will really show how this works.

Once again, I've said way too much. In short, I'd like to try rice hulls to see if I can get more air to my roots after watering. (without tilting !)

 

[SmokingWings]

Thanks so much ! Here is a classic example of cannabis growing terms meaning two completely different things.

Cooking soil

Yes, I cook and boil my soil, but I have thought hard and long about trying your cooking method for many reasons. So, there is definition 1: cooking the soil (boil, steam, bake, or microwave) and definition 2: letting the soil "cook" naturally, allowing all the life to decompose the soil...Done correctly this should heat up the soil without any heat added, and as you say "no cold basements or chilly floors"... I also love that you start off with BTI, something I use for the first two waterings after adding soil to a pot. I have zero fungus gnats now but am almost 100% guaranteed to get them without BTI...

I have a soil bin, unfortunately in a basement, so I'm not sure I can fully cook as you mention but I may try allowing the soil to "cook" (Def 2) for a few months before usage. I have a pet rabbit and mixing a little rabbit manure into the cooking process might do good things.

The two definitions of "cooking soil" are pretty much the same ones used in our gardening and landscaping classes just over 50 years ago. I remember coming across the definitions reading through gardening books and articles going back into the 1930s.

They are old terms used for 125 years, so long before the Cannabis growing as we know it today. Cooking with heat by steaming the soil started being used in Europe in the late 1880s and in the US in the early-mid 1890s.

I used to mix compost, peat moss and Perlite and then adding in the other ingredients, or their substitutions, used for Coot's or Sub-Cool's "super soils". I often would add i some water; enough to get the soil mix moist but not soggy wet. Then the mix was put in a metal tub I kept in the basement so it could "cook".

Within a couple of days the I could feel warmth rising up from the soil and feel heat if I stuck my hand into the soil. This lasted a couple of weeks as the temperatures slowly dropped backed down.

The "cooking" by raising the temperature of the soil to 150F up to as much as 400F does not seem to be recommended as a sterilization method like it used to be. Has to do with the soil life web and that the killing off of the beneficial life and the time it takes for some of them to rebuild outweighs the killing of micro-organisms that cause problems.

Top that off with the recent discoveries and understandings of the soil life web that show a growth of micro-organisms that are specific to different specie of plants. These discoveries are showing that people growing Cannabis are better off not sterilizing and re-using the soils over which increases the levels of the "soil life web" that are the most beneficial to their plant. Two of the members, @Gee64 and @Keffka , were talking about this part of the 'web' and the benefits for Cannabis growing not that long ago.