Unknown bugs

[Rodrigo]

Hi, everyone

A few months ago I started noticing weird marks on the leaves (pics below) that look like bug activity but there were no bugs around. These marks weren't significant (not too much) and since there were no (visible) bugs around and the plants didn't seem affected I let it go. After a few weeks I started noticing the presence of these small fly like bugs, very few at the beginning, only one every couple of days. It was hard to examine them because they are very small and whenever I catch one I crush them most of the time.
Anyways when I noticed that the population of flies was increasing I set some sticky paper and in a couple of days I had trapped a few dozens. Paper's still up and they keep getting caught.

So, upon closer and more detailed examination of the leaves I found the source of the marks (I think) I found these extremely small bugs that were too small to photograph so I can only describe them as a very very small mantis; very light green in color, extremely small and I think it had 6 legs. These are also very hard to find because actually there aren't that many around. They are not mites.

Also, yesterday I changed the water on the res and on the underside of the lid there were dozens of little worms/maggots, maybe about a millimeter in length, I can only presume that they are the offspring of the flies I've been seeing but I have no idea how they winded up inside the res and under the lid, I'm guessing that the eggs were planted on the rockwool or on the roots and water dragged them inside the res. I had not seen them before and I change that water weekly.

So here are the pics

LEAF DAMAGE (3 PICS)

VERY SMALL FLIES (4 PICS)

WORMS/MAGGOTS (3 PICS)

I think I have the fly problem under control, it never got out of hand and given the quantity of flies that are getting caught on the sticky paper I don't think it will become one.
I'd like to get rid of whatever bug is causing the leaves damage before it does become a problem


Ok so last but not least, I found this single larvae on top of the rockwool one day, never saw one like it again, it was much bigger than the others.

Ok so any help/advice/opinion would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!!!

 

[shottafire]

My guess is thrips and they are pretty easy to take care of. just search around for your plan of attack.

 

[GreatLife4All]

I agree, those are thrips.

I had a small issue with them during warmer weather... shop vac took care of it. If you shake the plant it is very easy to get them flying above the canopy and then you just suck them up. No chemicals needed. Keep at it and they will be gone in a day or two. Some will then hatch... repeat.

Or another one... catch a wolf spider and put amongst the garden plants. Tried this on another tent. The thrips will all be dead within a day or two with no further work on your part. When the thrips are gone... the wolf spider will move on.

 

[puffpass]

well that's good its not threatening your plant's

that my whiterhino think the leave are fine I keep out side

 

[Rodrigo]

I too agree they are thrips. I've been doing some reading and all the signs point toward thrips so thanks everyone!

The vacuum sounds like a good idea, I'll give that a try, anyway the sticky paper is taking care of those that fly, I actually never see more than one or two flying around.
Not too fond of the spider idea, firstly because I hate those fuckers and the wolf spider looks scary as shit. And I'm not even sure we have them here (I live in Chile)

Any other ideas?
I read somewhere that wiping the leaves with rubbing alcohol kills them upon contact so the advice is to wipe every leaf. Does anyone know anything about this?

I grow organic so it would be great to solve this without using chemicals or pesticides or whatever. I can now deal with the flyers, so I'm more interested in getting rid of the small fuckers on the leaves.

Thanks again!!

 

[GreatLife4All]

You made me laugh...

If you were a thrip... you would be even more terrorized to see one. They are fierce when it comes to killing insects.

And they have no interest in us humans... other than a consistent source of bugs.

But you are correct... I don't know the local insects and spiders in your area.

Not too fond of the spider idea, firstly because I hate those fuckers and the wolf spider looks scary as shit. And I'm not even sure we have them here (I live in Chile)

Any other ideas?
I read somewhere that wiping the leaves with rubbing alcohol kills them upon contact so the advice is to wipe every leaf. Does anyone know anything about this?

I grow organic so it would be great to solve this without using chemicals or pesticides or whatever. I can now deal with the flyers, so I'm more interested in getting rid of the small fuckers on the leaves.

Thanks again!!

 

[Rodrigo]

Ok so... I just harvested yesterday, currently I'm using the tent for the drying process so as to keep the smells near zero.
I removed everything and cleaned up as much as I could, now the hydroton is sitting in a cooler full of water and chlorine (hopefully killing whatever was in there), over the weekend I'll be washing it and drying it, getting it ready for the next cycle, which I'm planning on starting around the 23rd. I thoroughly cleaned the res, pumps, hoses, etc. I didn't use anything other than water because I don't want to leave any chemical residue.

The plants that are now vegging are the ones whose leaves you can see in the above pictures, these are going into flower around the 23rd, but into the tent around Wednesday probably, there's some damage due to the thrips but not enough to be a major concern. I've decided to start again from seed on all strains instead of cloning so hopefully the thrips won't affect these new generation as they won't ever be in the same environment, i.e. the now affected plants are going into the tent to finish the vegging under the HPS and then to flower, and I'll clean everything thoroughly on the vegging side (which is actually open space in the room, not constricted inside a cabinet, but right next to the tent). After the cleaning is done and a couple of days have gone by I'll put the seedlings in there, hopefully by now the thrips outside the tent in the vegging area will be gone (all equipment will be cleaned, as well as the walls and whatever surface I can) and if there's still any inside the tent hopefully the sticky paper will catch them and they won't spread.

...At least that's the theory...

Since I'm new to both dealing with a problem and try to prevent it I'd appreciate any advice or comment on how to proceed. I think the aforementioned plan should be good? At least the flying thrips are almost gone, I hardly see them anymore, I even shook the plants as advised but nothing came off them. So if any more hatch inside the tent they should be caught by the sticky paper or get sucked into the carbon filter (from where there's no getting out) so I don't think they should spread to the vegging area.

Again, that's the theory.


So if anyone has any advice or comment please share it. I think I'm doing things right?


Thanks in advance, people!!

 

[Rodrigo]

no?

 

[Richard Richardson]

Yes

 

[Rodrigo]

hahaha, c'mon, will that work?

 

[GreatLife4All]

Ok so... I just harvested yesterday, currently I'm using the tent for the drying process so as to keep the smells near zero.

Great plan my friend.

I removed everything and cleaned up as much as I could, now the hydroton is sitting in a cooler full of water and chlorine (hopefully killing whatever was in there), over the weekend I'll be washing it and drying it, getting it ready for the next cycle, which I'm planning on starting around the 23rd. I thoroughly cleaned the res, pumps, hoses, etc. I didn't use anything other than water because I don't want to leave any chemical residue.

By chlorine I am going to assume that you mean bleach? If so, I would not soak my hydroton in bleach. Bleach breaks down into sodium, chlorine, and water. The sodium can attach to the hydroton and cause problems when you repot.

I would only use H2O2 for the task of cleaning up hydroton. It breaks down into water... so there is no chance of contamination or anything attaching to the clay particles.

You can disinfect all your pumps, reservoirs, and etc with bleach - just rinse thoroughly when done.

 

[GreatLife4All]

The plants that are now vegging are the ones whose leaves you can see in the above pictures, these are going into flower around the 23rd, but into the tent around Wednesday probably, there's some damage due to the thrips but not enough to be a major concern.

I am not positive about this... but I thought that the thrips laid their eggs in the hydroton at the base of the plant... and that the larvae essentially climbed up for a meal... or ate algae... or something.

I've decided to start again from seed on all strains instead of cloning so hopefully the thrips won't affect these new generation as they won't ever be in the same environment, i.e. the now affected plants are going into the tent to finish the vegging under the HPS and then to flower, and I'll clean everything thoroughly on the vegging side (which is actually open space in the room, not constricted inside a cabinet, but right next to the tent). After the cleaning is done and a couple of days have gone by I'll put the seedlings in there, hopefully by now the thrips outside the tent in the vegging area will be gone (all equipment will be cleaned, as well as the walls and whatever surface I can) and if there's still any inside the tent hopefully the sticky paper will catch them and they won't spread.

...At least that's the theory...

Good theory... sounds like overkill to me. Again, I am not positive but I believe they lay their eggs somewhere other than the plant. I never found an egg on any leaf. They are sap suckers. Their only interest in the leaf are the sugars contained therein.

Because of this, after I got it under control I put them into flowering and have never seen a thrip in the new flowering tent where they are sitting now. Here is what they look like now:

Cuttings from these are sitting in the original veg tent where I got attacked - and I have no issues. Here is a picture of the clones from the same plant... under my new Advanced LED light.

Because of the beliefs that I stated above, I threw away all my grow stones and put the plants in new ones.

Since I'm new to both dealing with a problem and try to prevent it I'd appreciate any advice or comment on how to proceed. I think the aforementioned plan should be good? At least the flying thrips are almost gone, I hardly see them anymore, I even shook the plants as advised but nothing came off them. So if any more hatch inside the tent they should be caught by the sticky paper or get sucked into the carbon filter (from where there's no getting out) so I don't think they should spread to the vegging area.

It is always best to be proactive my friend. But, again, don't go too far.

 

[Rodrigo]

By chlorine I am going to assume that you mean bleach? If so, I would not soak my hydroton in bleach. Bleach breaks down into sodium, chlorine, and water. The sodium can attach to the hydroton and cause problems when you repot.

I would only use H2O2 for the task of cleaning up hydroton. It breaks down into water... so there is no chance of contamination or anything attaching to the clay particles.

You can disinfect all your pumps, reservoirs, and etc with bleach - just rinse thoroughly when done.

To be honest it could be bleach or just chlorine, they use the same name here, the basic distinction when buying is that you use one for cleaning your toilet and the other for your clothes. I'm pretty sure I used the one for the toilet, so it could be just chlorine.
I didn't know it breaks down into sodium, but I read somewhere (might have been a post from you, actually) I think maybe on a thread for cleaning hydroton, that if you combine a certain amount of h2o2 with the bleach in the water the react with each other and basically with the h2o2 you neutralize the bleach, I don't remember how the chemical process was supposed to be.
But anyway I always clean it this way and then I really rinse every single pellet to remove as much residue as possible, and just to be sure I sun dry them before use to remove whatever the rinse didn't take care of. I've never had a problem using this method.

I am not positive about this... but I thought that the thrips laid their eggs in the hydroton at the base of the plant... and that the larvae essentially climbed up for a meal... or ate algae... or something.

You may be right about them laying their eggs in the hydroton, in my case on the veg side I don't use hydroton just the rockwool, so they may be hiding in there. On the flower side I do use the clay and when I put a sticky paper laying flat on top of it (as opposed to hanged) it caught a lot of them, I'm gonna venture and say all of them. When it was hanging it only caught a few, so they definitely hang near the base.
I don't have algae so I don't think they feed off it in my case.


How did you got rid of them?

I wanna try to save the hydroton, after all I use a lot so it doesn't come cheap to replace it all, but that was the point of bleaching it and using the h2o2, try to kill whatever was in there.

Over the next few days I'll be watching closely for signs of a comeback.

When you say overkill, do you mean starting from seed again instead of cloning? if so, doesn't it make sense that cloning one of the affected plant may carry one or two thrips that just so happen they were feeding of those leaves at the moment and they reproduce afterwards?
It may not be the case, I was just trying to be thorough.


Thanks for every word, very helpful stuff.

 

[GreatLife4All]

To be honest it could be bleach or just chlorine, they use the same name here, the basic distinction when buying is that you use one for cleaning your toilet and the other for your clothes. I'm pretty sure I used the one for the toilet, so it could be just chlorine.

Interesting.

It would seem you picked correctly. I looked up the difference and the bathroom / toilet cleaner uses Ammonium Chloride rather than the sodium hypochlorite for it's source

I didn't know it breaks down into sodium, but I read somewhere (might have been a post from you, actually) I think maybe on a thread for cleaning hydroton, that if you combine a certain amount of h2o2 with the bleach in the water the react with each other and basically with the h2o2 you neutralize the bleach, I don't remember how the chemical process was supposed to be.

I have tried many crazy things my friend - so I will not deny this.

But I honestly don't remember mixing them. I have used both for disinfectant. I have used both in my hydro water to prevent plant disease. So my method WAS - before I started scrogging where I can't move the plants now - to remove all plants, fill with water, add bleach, run for an hour, drain, add water, add H2O2, then add nutrients.

After a couple of accidents... I no longer mix nutrients in my system.

I now use H2O2 the whole way. I have given up on bleach at this point - not because of effectiveness... but rather the H2O2 is slightly safer to handle. Bleach is cheaper.

But the level of usage for disenfecting with bleach is 100-200ppm. The level for use as a plant food is 2 to 10ppm. So I varied the quantity of bleach that I would use - depending on what I needed. At either level - there is about the same amount of sodium as chlorine. So when I am running it in my DWC with plants in place - I am at about 5PPM. When the plants are out - I bump it way up so that it kills everything.

But anyway I always clean it this way and then I really rinse every single pellet to remove as much residue as possible, and just to be sure I sun dry them before use to remove whatever the rinse didn't take care of. I've never had a problem using this method.

No, Rodrigo, it is apparently a GREAT method. Ammonium is just nitrogen. No way that will hurt the plants. There are some other ingredients in the mixture - but they are just surfactants.

You may be right about them laying their eggs in the hydroton, in my case on the veg side I don't use hydroton just the rockwool, so they may be hiding in there. On the flower side I do use the clay and when I put a sticky paper laying flat on top of it (as opposed to hanged) it caught a lot of them, I'm gonna venture and say all of them. When it was hanging it only caught a few, so they definitely hang near the base.
I don't have algae so I don't think they feed off it in my case.

I really don't know what the larvae eat nor where they are hatched... I was being a bit of a smartass with the algae comment to be honest. If you truly have none

How did you got rid of them?

I wanna try to save the hydroton, after all I use a lot so it doesn't come cheap to replace it all, but that was the point of bleaching it and using the h2o2, try to kill whatever was in there.

As hard as this is for me to say - you are fine using TOILET CLEANER - for the purposes of cleaning Hydroton and destroying the critters. You will be leaving nothing behind but possibly some surfactants and nitrogen. Neither of these are going to hurt your hydroton. And may even be beneficial.

My hat is off to you sir... You taught me something today. ++reps.

When you say overkill, do you mean starting from seed again instead of cloning? if so, doesn't it make sense that cloning one of the affected plant may carry one or two thrips that just so happen they were feeding of those leaves at the moment and they reproduce afterwards?
It may not be the case, I was just trying to be thorough.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I just went through this my friend. I didn't kill off any of the clone lines. I just threw away the hydroton, repotted in new, used a heavy dosing of H2O2, and then fed them bennies for a couple of weeks. They turned out beautiful and no more issues.

Our only disagreement seems to be the use of bleach for cleaning hydroton... but you are not using bleach... You are using TOILET BOWL CLEANER.

Am I the only one revolted by that?

 

[GreatLife4All]

How did you got rid of them?

I got out the shop vac... sucked up any I saw. Shook every plant and sucked those up. Did this morning and night for a couple of days and there were no more.

After a week of seeing nothing - I did the cleaning routine outlined above. Never had another issue... and it is now a month or more later.

I am not even sure the cleaning routine was necessary...

 

[Rollin]

If the maggots are on the bottom of the pot they thrive because of water.

 

[GreatLife4All]

I have always found them in wet locations. Never someplace that had a chance to dry out.

So I agree with your point.

 

[Rodrigo]

The maggots were on the underside of the lid for the res, and because of the bubbling inside the underside of the lid is an extremely wet spot. You can see in the pictures that they are practically swimming.
It was apparently a single event because I never saw that before or since. So I may have gotten lucky and prevented them from exploding in population when I found these maggots, there must had been at least a hundred.

 

[GreatLife4All]

I sorta forgot about that. I had them in the same place.

Under the reservoir lid was the first place that I found the maggots. I simply dropped the level in my reservoir and that problem went away... but they still seemed to exist somewhere. My assumption was in the hydroton / growstones.

And if that is the case, Am I watering too often in my ebb and flow? It is on an interval timer - every four hours during the 18 hours of light. Which means no watering from two hours before lights off till the next "morning."

Even at once every 4 hours, the bottoms of the pots are never really dry. Grow Stones hold a lot of solution.

 

[Rodrigo]

I water a little less than that under 18/6, the veg side (Drip) waters 3 times a day for 15 minutes each time. i.e. lights on at 22:00, first water at 23:00, second at 7:30, last at 15:00, light out at 16:00. On the flower side (E&F), also 3 times a day for 15 minutes: lights on at 22:00, first water at 23:00, second at 3:30, last at 9:00, lights out at 10:00, also for 15 minutes.

The bottom of the pots doesn't ever get dry, the stones hold way too much water for that to happen in a few hours, it doesn't become stagnant as with every water cycle whatever remained in the pots from the previous cycle gets washed away, so there's no fungi or mold growing, aeration is very good and water temps are around 20°C

I can't lower the level on the res as I'm using a really small container (for veg), probably holds about 12 liters and if the level goes down about 2" (only a couple of liters) then the pump gets exposed.
The flower res holds around 100lt but I only use about 60.

Is it safe to use Lysol near the plants? I mean the spray disinfectant, I don't wish to spray it directly on the leaves but around them, near the corners, floor and whatever surface that may hold bugs or harmful bacteria or fungi? will it do anything to thrips?