UncleCannabis' Indoor Ganja Grove - Organic Soil - Sea of Green

[UncleCannabis]

The discussion is about whether or not pH is relevant when growing in organic soil with 100% organic methods. There appears to be a misconception that soil pH doesn't matter when growing in organic soils. I think we've all read or heard it many times over "When growing organically feed the soil and the microbes and everything takes care of itself. No need to worry about pH when growing organically."

I'm pushing back by saying that soil pH does matter regardless of whether we are using organic nutrients or synthetic fertilizers. The laws of chemistry still apply for elements that are in solution (soil solution in our case).
Soil pH may be even more critical when growing organically since soil pH is a key factor in maintaining healthy microbial balances.

What TheCelt had previously mentioned about a well balanced soil automatically being pH balanced for optimum cannabis growth is 100% correct. A soil that has a good texture, an optimum balance of nutrients and minerals, as well as optimum C:N ratios will automatically have a pH of about 6.2 to 6.8.
But tilt the nutrient balances and/or C:N ratios and pH get affected. They go hand in hand and are interrelated. If soil pH is "off" this is an indication of an unhealthy soil condition that should not be ignored because we are growing organically.

Every plant has a preferred soil pH range that it will thrive best in. If soil pH is outside of the optimum range for a plant it will result in the plant not reaching it's full potential. Anyone that has ever tried to grow an azalea in alkaline soils knows exactly what I mean by this.

 

[UncleCannabis]

I am looking forward to the thoughts you have developed on pH buffering UncleC.

We often spend a fair amount of time on various threads discussing soils and amendments, sometimes almost as much time as we do discussing our plants LOL I think many of us, whether we know it or not, realize that the success of our plants is determined by how successfully we build our soils (all other things being equal)

I highly value UncleC's input because he has a background, and much more experience, in agriculture than I LOL I can do the research and understand the chemistry, it was part of my engineering training, but nothing beats hands on experience

It's been many years since I worked in the agriculture and horticulture industry. Just because I may know slightly more about plants than the average Joe that's never grown anything doesn't make me a plant guru or expert about any of this stuff.

 

[SweetSue]

Well put UncleCannabis. I understand more fully and agree. If I'm catching your message here it's to not out-and-out dismiss the possibility of ph concerns simply because you grow in a living soil. Correct? That although a balanced mix will buffer the effects, how many of us achieve perfection or maintain the illusion we perceived as perfection?

I seem to be part on an inordinate number of conversations lately around resisting the status quo. Hmmmm.....

 

[brightlight]

The discussion is about whether or not pH is relevant when growing in organic soil with 100% organic methods. There appears to be a misconception that soil pH doesn't matter when growing in organic soils. I think we've all read or heard it many times over "When growing organically feed the soil and the microbes and everything takes care of itself. No need to worry about pH when growing organically."

I'm pushing back by saying that soil pH does matter regardless of whether we are using organic nutrients or synthetic fertilizers. The laws of chemistry still apply for elements that are in solution (soil solution in our case).
Soil pH may be even more critical when growing organically since soil pH is a key factor in maintaining healthy microbial balances.

What TheCelt had previously mentioned about a well balanced soil automatically being pH balanced for optimum cannabis growth is 100% correct. A soil that has a good texture, an optimum balance of nutrients and minerals, as well as optimum C:N ratios will automatically have a pH of about 6.2 to 6.8.
But tilt the nutrient balances and/or C:N ratios and pH get affected. They go hand in hand and are interrelated. If soil pH is "off" this is an indication of an unhealthy soil condition that should not be ignored because we are growing organically.

Every plant has a preferred soil pH range that it will thrive best in. If soil pH is outside of the optimum range for a plant it will result in the plant not reaching it's full potential. Anyone that has ever tried to grow an azalea in alkaline soils knows exactly what I mean by this.

Hey Uncle.....good points. I've been growing with organic mixes for years. They're usually around the mid 6 pH level. My tap water has good mineral content so initial mix pH can rise slightly during a grown. Outdoors I don't usually check pH UNLESS I see a problem. BUT my base indoor media is coco, which is also organically amended. I HAVE TO check pH regularly indoors around mid grow to the end, because of fairly regular iron deficiency that pops up in late veg or early bloom. The mid 6 range is too high for coco. Iron needs sub 6.5 pH. So I have to lower pH to high 5's into low 6's. Everything returns to a happy state once that's achieved.

Organic growing is subject to the same considerations as any other style. The plant requirements are the same in any event. I wince a little when I hear organic growers state that pH isn't ever an issue or that flushing is never needed. So I side with you based on many years of organic cannabis growing.

 

[bobrown14]

Here's a somewhat scientific write up on soil PH in organic soil or any soil for that matter. You have to actually read thru to get the part the reads:

"The pH of the soil will automatically stabilize at around 6.4..."

Here's a link:

Cation Exchange Capacity in Soils, Simplified


The science is spelled out in a somewhat easier to read format. Soak it up. It's important like UC says, to start out with optimum soil. The challenge is how to we get to "optimum". I think UC wants to be sure he's got his soil dialed in and checking PH will help HIM verify that.

I submit the only way to tell if your soil is dialed in is to get a soil test done. We are pissing it the wind really without that data.

So what do we do without a soil test? We depend on others that have done the research and have come up with ways to build a proper soil and follow a recipe of sorts.

I use vermicompost (humus) - aeration - CSPM , 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 ratio; buffer with calcium (for the CSPM), add in some minerals and rock dust and call it a day.

What I think is happening (I got sucked into this) is that some where somehow the process of growing indoors HYDROPONICALLY, somehow SOME of the practices that work for hydroponics somehow got mixed into how to grow in soil in containers indoors.

Those 2 growing methods have absolutely NOTHING in common with exception of the plant being grown, be it tomato or cannabis. Example is flushing. Why would I "flush" my organic soil with water. Results are drowning my plants roots and the plant.. the organic compounds are and will still be in the soil. Read the article I linked, draw a conclusion based on science. Hydro growing there's no soil to hold the cations/anions so ya flush away the salts, in soil its simply not going to happen. Water will not change the cation exchange.

I agree PH is important. With a "proper soil mix" the PH takes care of itself. The article I pointed to tells us why. PH testing will tell you when something is off. However "fixing" PH is a whole different animal. You cannot simply add PH up/down in organic soil to change PH (again a hydroponic method that works for Hydro). In organic soil, getting soil "dialed in" starts with the hummus portion in the soil. Why we use vermicompost, we don't need any special tools, mother nature takes care of it for us.

Quality of the vermicompost for us is THE crucial thing. If you could see whats going on in our worm bin you'd think I'm totally full of shit (there's a lot more than worms in there!!). But it's what makes organic gardening work and we spend most of our effort composting. There's no short cut other than harvesting worm castings in the woods. This is our way of organic farming.

Can we tweak it so we get 8 zips instead of 4 zips per plant...yes probably but its more in genetics than the soil everything else being equal. Probably the reason seed production is such a big business in the canna world.

my .02 - TIFWIW.

Cheers

 

[UncleCannabis]

Well put UncleCannabis. I understand more fully and agree. If I'm catching your message here it's to not out-and-out dismiss the possibility of ph concerns simply because you grow in a living soil. Correct? That although a balanced mix will buffer the effects, how many of us achieve perfection or maintain the illusion we perceived as perfection?

I seem to be part on an inordinate number of conversations lately around resisting the status quo. Hmmmm.....

Correct Sue. Living soil is heavily dependent on a healthy pH for many reasons. Healthy soil and healthy pH go hand in hand and are inseparable.

Optimum nutrient content alone does not necessarily result in a healthy soil that will have a healthy pH. The amount of the total nutrients that are available versus those that are sequestered in saturation must be correct for pH to balance. A soil can contain a healthy overall nutrient ratio but still not have a healthy soil pH if 50% to 65% of the total nutrients are not in saturation state.

pH also plays a key role in the health and populations of your soil microbes. Nitrogen fixing bacteria cannot thrive in highly acidic soils. We've discussed the cations but lets not forget about the anions.

Anyways, I think we all agree that pH is important and plays a key role in the overall scheme of things.

 

[UncleCannabis]

Hey Uncle.....good points. I've been growing with organic mixes for years. They're usually around the mid 6 pH level. My tap water has good mineral content so initial mix pH can rise slightly during a grown. Outdoors I don't usually check pH UNLESS I see a problem. BUT my base indoor media is coco, which is also organically amended. I HAVE TO check pH regularly indoors around mid grow to the end, because of fairly regular iron deficiency that pops up in late veg or early bloom. The mid 6 range is too high for coco. Iron needs sub 6.5 pH. So I have to lower pH to high 5's into low 6's. Everything returns to a happy state once that's achieved.

Organic growing is subject to the same considerations as any other style. The plant requirements are the same in any event. I wince a little when I hear organic growers state that pH isn't ever an issue or that flushing is never needed. So I side with you based on many years of organic cannabis growing.

I’ve been paying attention to soil pH and runoff EC and have noticed a trend similar to what you've mentioned.
After about week 4 to 6 of bloom pH begins to drop off quickly from about 6.2ish to 5.5ish or lower. Runoff EC also shows a corresponding drop.
At this same time diminishing plant health can be noticed in the way of calcium, magnesium, and phosphorus deficiencies. It also seems that I’m seeing signs of manganese toxicity once the pH drops off. I'm not very good at pinpointing deficiencies or toxicity conditions so it could be something else entirely. What I do know is that plant health is not optimum going into the home stretch.

This trend was noticed in my second run which was basically a super soil type mix with the addition of coco. Coco was washed, flushed, and buffered with calcium/magnesium prior to use. I wanted to see if I could get through flowering using tap water only without adding any top dressings, so a drop in pH along with a substantial drop in runoff EC was expected.

With the run that is just finishing up I used 2 different mixes, 1 with coco and 1 without coco. Topdressings were added a few times during this grow in order to provide what I thought would be adequate nutrients to maintain good plant health. However, the same pH drop and decrease in runoff EC that were noticed with the previous water only grow was also experienced with this grow even with topdressings added that included worm castings, calcium, and magnesium. The decrease was not as substantial as what was experienced with the previous grow but the results were less than favorable nonetheless.

I’m interpreting the drop in pH and decrease in run off EC to be the result of a decrease in nutrient saturation levels as the grow progresses. Only a soil test can confirm this but a decrease in nutrient saturation will cause a corresponding decrease in pH even if total nutrient content is balanced.

Tea applications or adjustments to my topdressings may solve this problem. Maybe I need to allow more time for colloids to adsorb prior to putting my soil to use. Maybe I need to make some adjustments to the ingredients being used in order to optimize nutrient saturation levels. Maybe I need to dose my coco with a higher calcium and/or magnesium soak during buffering.
Maybe, maybe, maybe……I can only speculate as to what the correct course of action is. Without both a pre use and end of grow soil test to confirm what the differences are I can only guess at what’s really going on or what needs to be done to correct the problem.

Bottom line is that I know that I am having issues because my soil pH is not being maintained within acceptable limits.
By monitoring my soil pH during the grow cycle I’m able determine that a problem is occurring, I know when the problem is beginning to occur, and I know when the problem is reaching critical levels.

With a little time and practice I should be able to get this all worked out and dialed in at some point. I hope.... LOL!!

 

[Wreckedsummer]

Just sitting here soaking up this professional knowledge. Thank you

 

[grimmreefer]

Great read! Nice plants. I will definitely be along for this one.

I ammend using the "fist full of this, half a box of that..I wonder what this will do" approach.

I be sitting quietly getting my learn on.

And I'll do a Johnny black, just one of those special ice cubes.

 

[brightlight]

Hey bobrown....yes agree w/ you that no salts to flush but I flush to clean out other potential stuff like waste residue, chemicals that might have been used in mfr. or by equipment used in making or processing even organic ingredients. In this day & age, I just don't know how stuff is made, processed, shipped, & so on. So a flush is my last ditch effort to rid a plant of stuff that neither the plant nor I need. Easy & harmless at near harvest time & now & then can help taste & smoothness.

 

[SweetSue]

I've never been able to understand how flushing the soil clears residue from the plant. The plant receives nutrients from the soil. Those nutrients, to my limited understanding, are delivered in very particular ways and the plant trades off its own exudates for those nutrients. Does the plant somehow release elements into the soil during the flush? This sounds highly unlikely to me, since the plant takes in what it needs and then uses it to make energy and stay alive. Not trying to be argumentative, just curious as to what flushing the soil achieves in terms of clearing anything from the plant material.

Understand I come from a limited gardening background and work in LOS no-till, so I wouldn't flush anyway, but this has always intrigued me and I suddenly got curious enough to ask. This is the best place I know of to have this discussion. You guys are wonderful at this sort of thing. I'll be back to see what interest I sparked and if anyone cared to answer.

 

[CajunCelt]

Hey bobrown....yes agree w/ you that no salts to flush but I flush to clean out other potential stuff like waste residue, chemicals that might have been used in mfr. or by equipment used in making or processing even organic ingredients. In this day & age, I just don't know how stuff is made, processed, shipped, & so on. So a flush is my last ditch effort to rid a plant of stuff that neither the plant nor I need. Easy & harmless at near harvest time & now & then can help taste & smoothness.

Unless you're flushing with Clearex or similar, your not flushing out enough unwanted toxins from waste, etc. to justify flushing out the inherent nutrients, organic matter & micro colonies you've been building.
Just my opinion.

I've never been able to understand how flushing the soil clears residue from the plant. The plant receives nutrients from the soil. Those nutrients, to my limited understanding, are delivered in very particular ways and the plant trades off its own exudates for those nutrients. Does the plant somehow release elements into the soil during the flush? This sounds highly unlikely to me, since the plant takes in what it needs and then uses it to make energy and stay alive. Not trying to be argumentative, just curious as to what flushing the soil achieves in terms of clearing anything from the plant material.

Flushing does not clear material from the plant.
Since it's done with hydro grows mainly, there is no soil, no micro environment, nada. All there is, is what you've put into it. Enzymes, macro nutes, micro nutes, minerals... all by the grower.
But all the above usually comes in the form of salt that build up over the grow.
In the last week of the plant's life, it has enough nutes so you have to flush these salts out so they're not part of the cured bud. They will ruin the terpenes & taste of the bud.
Do I get a Susan Brownie?

 

[SweetSue]

Unless you're flushing with Clearex or similar, your not flushing out enough unwanted toxins from waste, etc. to justify flushing out the inherent nutrients, organic matter & micro colonies you've been building.
Just my opinion.


Flushing does not clear material from the plant.
Since it's done with hydro grows mainly, there is no soil, no micro environment, nada. All there is, is what you've put into it. Enzymes, macro nutes, micro nutes, minerals... all by the grower.
But all the above usually comes in the form of salt that build up over the grow.
In the last week of the plant's life, it has enough nutes so you have to flush these salts out so they're not part of the cured bud. They will ruin the terpenes & taste of the bud.
Do I get a Susan Brownie?

Thank you for the explaination Cajun. Short, sweet, to the point. For you Cajun, an entire pan. Shall I deliver?

 

[brightlight]

Unless you're flushing with Clearex or similar, your not flushing out enough unwanted toxins from waste, etc. to justify flushing out the inherent nutrients, organic matter & micro colonies you've been building.
Just my opinion.

Thanks cajun....agree w/ you. I use Clearex & Humboldt's Royal Flush. Back when I was still using synthetics I read up on flushing products. Can't remember exactly but AN or GO are stronger with more additives. Clearex is nothing but 3% glucose & 1.5% sucrose....what a deal at ~$10/qt. I like Royal Flush best. Mild & something fizzy in it that suggests some kind of cleansing going on. The last wk. or 10 days I want to flush out everything possible, which is why I kept flushing even after leaving synthetics.

 

[Weaselcracker]

Posting this on both your journals as a little bump and just to say we miss you terribly UncleC. Hope all is well and come back soon.

 

[santb]

Posting this on both your journals as a little bump and just to say we miss you terribly UncleC. Hope all is well and come back soon.

Ditto. Long time no read, Unk..

 

[SweetSue]

Gosh, it's my birthday and I can't tease you. That's so wrong on so many fronts.

Missing your smiling voice Uncle.

 

[UncleCannabis]

Gosh, it's my birthday and I can't tease you. That's so wrong on so many fronts.

Missing your smiling voice Uncle.

Happppppy belated BD my friend!! I hope that you had lots of canna in your cake.

 

[UncleCannabis]

Hey there friends. Apologies for being MIA for such a long spell. I've been really busy with work but I also had an interweb security breach that caused me to lay low for a while.

 

[UncleCannabis]

Update on the current grow:

I transplanted into the current pots and flipped to a 11 on / 13 off lighting schedule beginning on October 28th and the last of the girls was potted up and flipped on October 31st.

The girls that made the cut and moved into the Ganja Grove are as follows:
Jack Herer - Sensi Seeds
Grape Ape - Apothecary
Qleaner - TGA Subcool
Emerald Jack - Emerald Triangle
Lemon Diesel - Emerald Triangle
Sour Lemon OG - Emerald Triangle
Cherry OG - Emerald Triangle
Blueberry Headband - Emerald Triangle
Blue Dream - Humbolt Seed Co.
Amherst Sour Diesel - Humbolt Seed Co.
Chocolate Mint OG - Humbolt Seed Co.
24K Gold (Kosher Tangie) - DNA Genetics
Tangie - DNA Genetics
DJ's Gold - DNA Genetics
Strawberry Banana - DNA Genetics

I was a bit busy during this time so no pics were taken for the first few weeks.

Here are some group pics that were taken on November 28th.

Week 4 of flower.

Here is a pic of the double headed cola on the Cherry OG.

Here are some pics taken on Saturday (December 12th).

Week 6 of flower.

Jack Herer - Sensi Seeds

Grape Ape - Apothecary

Qleaner - TGA Subcool

Emerald Jack - Emerald Triangle

Lemon Diesel - Emerald Triangle

Sour Lemon OG - Emerald Triangle

Cherry OG - Emerald Triangle

Blueberry Headband - Emerald Triangle

Blue Dream - Humbolt Seed Co.

Amherst Sour Diesel - Humbolt Seed Co.

Chocolate Mint OG - Humbolt Seed Co.

24K Gold (Kosher Tangie) - DNA Genetics

Tangie - DNA Genetics

DJ's Gold - DNA Genetics

Strawberry Banana - DNA Genetics

All of the girls seem to be happy and healthy. When the girls are happy UncleC is also happy.

I'm still quite busy with work but I'll be stopping by to pay my old friends a visit as time allows. In the meantime, it's good to be back. Take care friends.