Top or FIM? Tangerine Dream/Jack Herer

[applegate]

First grow here - 2 Tangerine Dreams and 2 Jack Herers. Transplanted them into 7 gallon fabric containers two days ago (HF Ocean Forest soil) and running them under 24 hour 1000k light. They seem to have settled in well with no sign of distress and in fact look like they are poised for some explosive growth. The pictures are from repotting day (10/30) and only 2 days later they are bigger and more robust. The girls are 3 weeks old today.

Because this is my first grow I thought I might let one of each strain go natural so I can see the growth habit. That leaves the 2nd plant of each strain available for experimenting. These were grown from feminized seed if that makes a difference.

Does anybody know how each of these strains responds to topping or fimming? Is one better than the other? From looking around on grow journals and other sources I know both these strains can get scary tall and would like to keep them in the 5 foot range if possible. I suspect they are too young to top or FIM right now but I want to have a plan for when they are ready. Any advice would be greatly appreciated

 

[Emilya Green]

Those are some large containers for such tiny plants. It is going to take some extra effort to develop a solid rootball by doing that, but it can be done. Usually we recommend successive up-potting before you get to that size, so as to force the plants to develop a root ball in a constricted container, so I hope you don't get in trouble here with all your roots gathering at the bottom.

Most of us do train our plants using one method or another in order to keep them shorter for our indoor gardens, and also to increase yield. Personally, I find it very disappointing to spend 4 months growing out a plant only to have one main cola and less than 2 oz per plant. Instead of allowing my plants to grow naturally or vertically, I force them to produce multiple tops for me, and my plants become massive producers as a result.

Regarding your question, I do neither topping nor FIMing, I pinch off the top growth tip. I start with the 6th node and turn 1 into two. When those growth tips rise up so I can get to them, I pinch again... now 2 becomes four. After these grow out, I again pinch, and by this time the 5th node has grown up to the top trying to take dominance. I then pinch everything at the top again... 4 becomes 8, plus 4 more. Lastly, I pinch all of these again for between 18-24 tops. I do most of this in weeks 4 and 5 of veg, and then I let them recover and grow out for 2 or 3 more weeks before going to flower. Because I start this early and keep on them until late veg, my plants never get more than 18" or so tall in veg, and of course they get up to about 4' in the bloom tent, and totally manageable.

I have found that topping really ticks off the plants and there is recovery time to deal with when you do that. FIMs are the same way, they take a long time to resolve and a lot of times it doesn't work anyway, and you end up with a malformed and delayed plant. I prefer to pinch, and occasionally I pinch too early and end up with an accidental FIM, or I pinch an already alternating node, and eventually end up with what amounts to a FIM with 4 nodes at the top... but again, without the added delay that a regular FIM seems to add to the grow.

 

[applegate]

Hey Emilya-

Such TINY plants?!? LOL. They seem like monsters to me even though I know in my heart they are still babies!

Your theory on constantly repotting is interesting and I'll give it some consideration. I do know that transplanting is stressful to the plant so my own plan was to reduce the number of shocks to their systems and get them settled into their final pot as early as possible. I'll check the root distribution at the end of the grow to see if there appears to be any negative impact.

The description of pinching sounds a lot like topping in that you are topping the growth above the highest node, correct? Since I'm leaving one of each strain natural which would you say is the best candidate for pinching? The stouter, more compact plant or the slightly lankier, taller plant? The short fat plants have more baby branches (about 1/2 inch between nodes). The lankier plants also have little branches coming on but the branches are much less developed.

Appreciate your input!

 

[Emilya Green]

Hey Emilya-

Such TINY plants?!? LOL. They seem like monsters to me even though I know in my heart they are still babies!

Your theory on constantly repotting is interesting and I'll give it some consideration. I do know that transplanting is stressful to the plant so my own plan was to reduce the number of shocks to their systems and get them settled into their final pot as early as possible. I'll check the root distribution at the end of the grow to see if there appears to be any negative impact.

The description of pinching sounds a lot like topping in that you are topping the growth above the highest node, correct? Since I'm leaving one of each strain natural which would you say is the best candidate for pinching? The stouter, more compact plant or the slightly lankier, taller plant? The short fat plants have more baby branches (about 1/2 inch between nodes). The lankier plants also have little branches coming on but the branches are much less developed.

Appreciate your input!

keep in mind that these are weeds... some of the most hardy plants on the planet. They do not shock easily. If you transplant correctly there is no shock, my plants seem to leap into a growth spurt everytime I do it. It definitely is possible to shock a plant when transplanting, but if you do it right, it is extremely unlikely with these plants. Do not let that be your excuse.

Believe me, many of us have studied how roots develop in these plants, and I have even written papers describing it and how exactly to water a container correctly. These weeds are what are known as "deep rooting" plants and they immediately send their roots down as deep as they can and then spread out. We take great care to force these roots to grow laterally in a container by restricting the vertical height of the roots in smaller containers, and this process simply will not happen in your large 7 gallon smart pot unless you develop extraordinary watering methods to entice the roots to grow laterally in your container. Normal watering processes will not work in those big containers right now, because normally you would saturate the soil in the container and let the plant seek and use all the water. The problem is that water drops to its lowest level and tables in the container because of gravity, and that pool of water in the bottom would take a week or more to use right now... and of course the upper roots would die in that time and the lower roots being underwater all that time would also suffer. You are going to have to figure out how deep you think your upper roots extend into that soil (roughly the height of your plant) and you are going to have to water every few days just enough to sink down just that far. In that time, you have to hope that your lower roots can use up the water that pools at the bottom. It is quite a task to correctly water a big container like you have, with such a small plant and root system in it. It can be done, but it takes extraordinary effort and a solid knowledge of what the plants are doing. If I were going to try to save this grow at this point and bring it to its full potential, I would water a small amount each day all along the surface of the container and every third day or so right down the middle. There are upper and lower sets of roots, each specialized to do a specific job. You are going to need to water both of them, but not too much, because you need each of those regions to mostly dry out between waterings. Once you can assume that the roots are the size of the container, by looking at the size of the plant above, then start watering normally, soaking that container each time to the point of runoff, and then waiting until it is totally dry to water again.

Regarding pinching vs topping... topping usually involves actually cutting the trunk... I would never do that, as you have figured out, I am simply "topping" the top growth tip. It is a subtle difference, but this process is known as pinching, because usually the best time to do it is when you are able to get in there with your fingernails and "pinch" that top off, leaving the two new preflowers in the v below it. I use this training for three reasons, to increase the number of tops that I get in flower, to accelerate the lower and side growth and also to keep the vertical height in check. For this reason I would say your tallest and most likely plants to get out of control would be your most likely candidates for this process... remember that your plants will almost double in size from the time you switch to 12/12 to the end of flower.

 

[fanleaf]

Personally if these breeds have a tendency to get tall I would choose to top at least twice.

I would top above the 4th node. That will stunt the top growth for a few days perhaps. This will let the bottom branches get longer and stretch for some light. When the plant gets 3 more nodes on each top I would top again. Again this will stunt upward growth for a few days letting the bottom branches catch up. Then you end up with 4 main colas at the minimum and if worked right the bottoms will have caught up enough to become dominant as well.

Supercropping your lower branches would help this as well. Take a look at the base stem in my picture to the left or the journal in my signature. That plant was topped twice and ended up with over a dozen dominant tops.

The reason I would probably top instead of fimming on yours is you get the chance to stunt the upward growth a few times but all for a better outcome in the future. If those tend to get quite high there are several options and mine is just one of those.

The plant in my signature can get tall also however she ended up only 20 inches tall but 38 inches wide.