Top of plant looks healthy, bottom of plant looks over watered with a nute problem!

[Lovie]

Outdoor plant that should be transitioning into flower in the next week or two. I am doing an organic grow using Coast of Maine' Stonington blend and products. I have been foliage feeding this plant with synthetic nutes too. This plant had been doing really well. A couple of days ago I noticed some of the bottom leaves turning yellow but didn't become overly concerned because I had given the plant COM plant food and topped dressed 1.5 weeks ago and the leaves on the rest of the plant were a healthy shade of green. Today I am seeing the bottom of the plant dropping as though it was over watered and more yellow, greenish yellow leaves with brown spots. I need to figure this out fast because this plant will be transitioning to flower within the week, 2 weeks at most.

After posting this I think I may have found the problem. I would still like for someone to weigh in and tell me if I am right....or if I am not, the actual problem. And either way, how to fix it. If you look at the second pic, at the bottom of the plant you will see where I taped a branch back. The branch broke where it meets the stalk. After taping the branch back I wrapped tape around the broken branch and the stalk to help support the weight of the branch. 4 days ago I noticed the tape had stretched out some. I asked someone to push on the branch while I added some more tape to make sure the branch was snug to the stalk. I assumed they would know to push just enough so I could make a snug connection, but they shoved the branch hard, causing the entire plant to lean and held it in that position while I taped it.

I noticed when I went to put the nets on my plants for the night the plant was leaning. If you look at the second pic where the stalk comes out of the soil you can see where the plant has moved. I watered this plant this morning so this movement had to have happened after I watered because the water would have caused the soil to fill in around the stalk. I am guessing some of the roots got damaged. I searched online and couldn't find any helpful info on the subject, only root rot. How should I proceed from this point? The top of my plant looks healthy and the bottom looks like it is over watered and suffering from a nute problem.

 

[SmokingWings]

Today I am seeing the bottom of the plant dropping as though it was over watered and more yellow, greenish yellow leaves with brown spots. I need to figure this out fast because this plant will be transitioning to flower within the week, 2 weeks at most.

The top part does look healthy and like it is growing nicely. Looks like the early stage of stretch and the growing tips have that look that they pick up before the start of flower development so your thoughts that flowering is a couple weeks away fits.

The bottom of the plant is a different story. Usually if a plant is over watered the leaves will become puffy and then droop a bit. Those leaves in the photo do not look puffy but they are definitely wilting.

Normally leaves turning yellow is a Nitrogen shortage but those brown spots showing make it look more along the lines of a Potassium shortage issue. My Nitrogen and/or Potassium issues tended to start a week or two after active flowering and bud development started so this one is a bit different.

Not mentioned but in the second photo, near the edge on the right side, it looks like some of the completely wilted leaves have turned brown--no yellow left--just brown. I wanted to ask if you noticed at any time since the plant has started actively growing earlier whether the plant might have gone through a few days of not enough water and had a severe wilting which went away once watering resumed.

Is the wilting on the same stem that had to be taped up? Is some of the wilted leaves on stems that are not connected to the repaired main stem? I doubt that the wilt is connected to the movement of the stem in the soil. If it was the entire plant from bottom to top would show signs of an issue.

If you want you can apply a dose of a Potassium supplement to the plant with the next watering. A Kelp Meal tea is possible. A bit faster is to do a weekly dose of a Kelp extract instead of the tea while continuing with the Coast of Maine feeding schedule. It will not fix any leaves that are now turning yellow but it should help prevent new leaves from starting.

I have been feeding with doses of a Nitrogen and a Potassium supplement starting about 2 to 4 weeks before I am going to put a plant into flower. It has been working really well for delaying any yellowing leaves. Yes, they still can turn yellow but mostly 6 weeks after flowering starts instead of only a week or two. Plus I have more leaves still green right up till harvest instead of loosing most of them by the 4th or 5th week.

All things to think about. You can skip some of them but it is worthwhile to try something, even if it is only one thing, to see if it makes a change in the next 4 to 6 weeks.

 

[Lovie]

The top part does look healthy and like it is growing nicely. Looks like the early stage of stretch and the growing tips have that look that they pick up before the start of flower development so your thoughts that flowering is a couple weeks away fits.

The bottom of the plant is a different story. Usually if a plant is over watered the leaves will become puffy and then droop a bit. Those leaves in the photo do not look puffy but they are definitely wilting.

Normally leaves turning yellow is a Nitrogen shortage but those brown spots showing make it look more along the lines of a Potassium shortage issue. My Nitrogen and/or Potassium issues tended to start a week or two after active flowering and bud development started so this one is a bit different.

Not mentioned but in the second photo, near the edge on the right side, it looks like some of the completely wilted leaves have turned brown--no yellow left--just brown. I wanted to ask if you noticed at any time since the plant has started actively growing earlier whether the plant might have gone through a few days of not enough water and had a severe wilting which went away once watering resumed.

Is the wilting on the same stem that had to be taped up? Is some of the wilted leaves on stems that are not connected to the repaired main stem? I doubt that the wilt is connected to the movement of the stem in the soil. If it was the entire plant from bottom to top would show signs of an issue.

If you want you can apply a dose of a Potassium supplement to the plant with the next watering. A Kelp Meal tea is possible. A bit faster is to do a weekly dose of a Kelp extract instead of the tea while continuing with the Coast of Maine feeding schedule. It will not fix any leaves that are now turning yellow but it should help prevent new leaves from starting.

I have been feeding with doses of a Nitrogen and a Potassium supplement starting about 2 to 4 weeks before I am going to put a plant into flower. It has been working really well for delaying any yellowing leaves. Yes, they still can turn yellow but mostly 6 weeks after flowering starts instead of only a week or two. Plus I have more leaves still green right up till harvest instead of loosing most of them by the 4th or 5th week.

All things to think about. You can skip some of them but it is worthwhile to try something, even if it is only one thing, to see if it makes a change in the next 4 to 6 weeks.

If anything, it has had too much water from the rain. I have been waiting for days for the soil to dry up so I could water it so I could feed at the same time. I fed the same time I watered yesterday. I didn't mention it yesterday because I figured there was no way it could have had an affect that soon, but I fed Coast of Maines Bud and Bloom (NPK 5-13-0) and added some langbeinite since it should be flowering soon and the COM Bud and Bloom has no K. The plant did have some yellow leaves yesterday morning but was not drooping like that. All the branches are affected, not just that one that is broken. Also, I didn't notice the brown spots until yesterday evening.

Could this be a disease? This morning, I noticed a tree in my yard that it has brown spots too. I went outside to take a better look and the leaves on the top of the tree are a healthy green and the leaves at the bottom of the tree are a lighter shade of green, some with a yellowish tent, and the tree has a couple of leaves that are yellow. And I noticed on another plant outside that the bottom leaves are starting to do the same thing. I have posted pics below. The first 3 are the of the tree I was talking about, and the other two pics are of another one of my plants.

 

[Sueet]

I think too much water from the rain is your answer. And it is not uncommon for lower leaves to be attacked by fungus when there is a lot of rain, not only because of humidity, but also because it can splash up onto the leaves from below. I find my plants often shed the very lowest, most deeply shaded leaves on their own, even without fungus, so that could be part of it as well.

Also, when you have a lot of rain, your calcium can get washed away, so it probably wouldn't hurt to give a bit of calmag as well.

 

[Lovie]

I think too much water from the rain is your answer. And it is not uncommon for lower leaves to be attacked by fungus when there is a lot of rain, not only because of humidity, but also because it can splash up onto the leaves from below. I find my plants often shed the very lowest, most deeply shaded leaves on their own, even without fungus, so that could be part of it as well.

Also, when you have a lot of rain, your calcium can get washed away, so it probably wouldn't hurt to give a bit of calmag as well.

We haven't had any big down pours. Every couple of days we've had a brief shower, just enough to keep the top 3 to 4 inches of soil moist. I know it can be hard to tell from a pic, especially since there is nothing beside it for scale. On the plant that is most affected the canopy is as least 2 feet away from the soil, probably closer to 3 feet away from the soil. That would be a really big splash back. This plant is in a 50-gallon container and the other ones are in 25-gallon containers so washout is unlikely too. I have attached a pic of the same plant from a week ago. I have been adding calmeg to my foliage feed, however, I know a plant cannot take in a lot of nutes in through the leaves to a deficiency can still occur.

I have been looking at VA's department of forestry dept. website to see if I can find a disease that looks like this and I haven't came across anything. How do you treat a fungus problem?

 

[Sativa1970]

Looks like all the problem leaves are from that broken branch but hard to tell. The lateral branches before the rough break will suffer too. The rest of the plant just looks tired because it is focusing resources on mending. Are you foliar feeding or top dressing any kelp yet? Any other K supplement? K is for building new cells, vascular system and general health.

The close up pic of your leaf is K deficiency at the tips. The spots farther up and on the other leaf pics look like frogeye. There are plenty of antifungals readily available to treat frogeye leaf spot.

K deficient leaf starting to brown on tip.

Frogeye leaf spot fungus. Dark spot grows then center turns light, leaving a dark ring,

 

[Lovie]

Looks like all the problem leaves are from that broken branch but hard to tell. The lateral branches before the rough break will suffer too. The rest of the plant just looks tired because it is focusing resources on mending. Are you foliar feeding or top dressing any kelp yet? Any other K supplement? K is for building new cells, vascular system and general health.

The close up pic of your leaf is K deficiency at the tips. The spots farther up and on the other leaf pics look like frogeye. There are plenty of antifungals readily available to treat frogeye leaf spot.

K deficient leaf starting to brown on tip.

Frogeye leaf spot fungus. Dark spot grows then center turns light, leaving a dark ring,

It's all the way around, not just the broken branch. I took the tape off this evening to check on its progress and it looks good. The interior seems to be completely mended. There is a small gap where the branch meets the stalk that the exterior has not mended yet leaving the interior exposed so I covered it back with tape to prevent any fungus getting to it and even though the branch is connected to the stalk and can stand without support I went ahead and put taped around the stalk to the branch like a sling to support the weight of the branch so it could finish healing without the stress from the weight of the branch.

I removed all the leaves with the spots in case it is a fungus to hopefully prevent further spread. When doing this I realized the bottom center of the canopy is the worst. At night when I put the net on this plant it does compress the branches together, and I foliage feed right before I put the nets on so the bottom center is probably moist. To add to it, I don't always wake up early to take the net off. So, I am thinking between the moisture from the foliage feeding, the net compressing the branches and me over sleeping and not taking the nets off before it gets hot out that fungus is a high probability. I am leaving the nets off tonight to allow for more airflow and so I can wash the nets. After I wash the nets I am going to make sure each net goes on the same plant each night to avoid any cross contamination. Can fungus cause the bottom half of the canopy to droop?



I fed COA plant food 1.5 weeks ago (NPK 5-2-4) and kelp meal (NPK 0-1-2). Yesterday I fed COA buds and blooms (NPK 5-13-0) and langbeinite (NPK 0-0-22) to allow it time to break down before it starts to flower. I also top dressed this plant a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Sativa1970]

Since it is not just the broken branch or pre laterals that changes things.

N,P,K, and mag are mobile in the plant and effect old growth first. It starts drawing these salts from the old growth on the bottom to feed new growth. Enough time has passed since you fed your organic soil a 5-2-4 and a 0-1-2 organic boost for it to be available. Organic concentrates "release" on a bell curve from 1 to 6 weeks, peaking at 4 weeks. langbeinite and kelp extract are soluble, so almost immediately available. So even if it is a nutrient deficiency, there is nothing to do but wait. Adding more organics will not help and cause over feeding in the future.

Deficiencies in organic soil are vary gradual, not a sudden shift in condition. Water on the other hand causes the same effects as N,P,K and mag but it happens quickly, no matter the media. Improper water at the roots causes all the leaves to first go limp. Too much, they get mushy like frost damage. Too little they get crispy.

To much moisture on the leaves causes them to limp. The bottom and inside are going to be the last ones to dry out with less air and sun getting to them. So they progress farther and faster. Wet leaves can not continue photosynthesis because one step in the process is releasing water vapor. They spent more time consuming than producing glucose so they starve. They are also spending energy repairing damage from fungus spores in these conditions.

If you are going to foliar feed, do it early morning or earlier in the evening so the plant has time to dry before the night time net. Your net should not be compressing the plant. Pests can just chew the leave through the net openings and will lay eggs through the net, onto the leaves. You watched it happen.

I know you are fighting corn ear and tobacco bugs. For me it was deer. I don't think it is any coincidence that deer season opens right after harvest season. I have gone out hunting with a score to settle more than once!

 

[SmokingWings]

We haven't had any big down pours. Every couple of days we've had a brief shower, just enough to keep the top 3 to 4 inches of soil moist.

Keep in mind that past those 3 or 4 inches of soil it can be getting drier and drier by the day. With a plant that size there should be roots in the pot from top to bottom and side to side. Those roots are also drawing in water from the soil but if that soil is below the 3 or 4 inches mentioned then it is drying out. Plus, the plastic cloth is also allowing some moisture to escape through the sides.

It is very possible that there is moist soil near the surface and at the bottom but the middle area only has enough to keep the roots there from drying out and dying.

More than once growers here have shown photos of the root mass after popping a plant out of a pot when transplanting. It is very easy to see the area that has not been getting water even when the top layer is damp. This sort of a dry layer of soil has come up a couple of times in the discussion found in the Proper Way to Water a Potted Plant thread.

 

[Lovie]

Since it is not just the broken branch or pre laterals that changes things.

N,P,K, and mag are mobile in the plant and effect old growth first. It starts drawing these salts from the old growth on the bottom to feed new growth. Enough time has passed since you fed your organic soil a 5-2-4 and a 0-1-2 organic boost for it to be available. Organic concentrates "release" on a bell curve from 1 to 6 weeks, peaking at 4 weeks. langbeinite and kelp extract are soluble, so almost immediately available. So even if it is a nutrient deficiency, there is nothing to do but wait. Adding more organics will not help and cause over feeding in the future.

Deficiencies in organic soil are vary gradual, not a sudden shift in condition. Water on the other hand causes the same effects as N,P,K and mag but it happens quickly, no matter the media. Improper water at the roots causes all the leaves to first go limp. Too much, they get mushy like frost damage. Too little they get crispy.

To much moisture on the leaves causes them to limp. The bottom and inside are going to be the last ones to dry out with less air and sun getting to them. So they progress farther and faster. Wet leaves can not continue photosynthesis because one step in the process is releasing water vapor. They spent more time consuming than producing glucose so they starve. They are also spending energy repairing damage from fungus spores in these conditions.

If you are going to foliar feed, do it early morning or earlier in the evening so the plant has time to dry before the night time net. Your net should not be compressing the plant. Pests can just chew the leave through the net openings and will lay eggs through the net, onto the leaves. You watched it happen.

I know you are fighting corn ear and tobacco bugs. For me it was deer. I don't think it is any coincidence that deer season opens right after harvest season. I have gone out hunting with a score to settle more tha.

 

[Lovie]

So, I have sat back and done nothing the past few days to see what was going to happen. No nets, no foliage spray on any of my plants. All my plants are now showing symptoms. And after an inspection of my woodline and seeing this on multiple plants and doing research online I believe I have leaf septoria. So, I am going to get some fungal spray and after getting through this season no more outdoor grows while living at this house. I don't have high hopes for this situation, but I have come to far not to try. If anyone has experience with dealing with this let me know and has any helpful tips let me know.

 

[Lovie]

I started a new thread concerning this issue if anyone wants to look. @Sueet you seemed to recognize the fungal infection quickly. Do you have experience with this?

Leaf Septoria

 

[Sativa1970]

Septoria is not a specific fungus but a class of fungus. Treat the plant with copper bicarbonate base fungicide. It is safe for consumption. Remove badly infected leaves. What are you foliar feeding? Organic tea kills fungus as long as there is no fish emulsion. Fish emulation promotes fungal growth.

 

[Lovie]

I have been using this once a week for the past 3 weeks.

I have been using the Base A, Base B and Solid start daily for awhile now. Last week I started adding Rock Solid because the instructions say to use all 4 during flower transition, then to remove the Solid Start once in flower and I have been adding the CalMeg every 3 to 4 days.

 

[SmokingWings]

The close up pic of your leaf is K deficiency at the tips. The spots farther up and on the other leaf pics look like frogeye. There are plenty of antifungals readily available to treat frogeye leaf spot.

K deficient leaf starting to brown on tip.

I have been looking at those photos @Lovie posted in msg #1 and figured two separate issues happening at the same time. The Potassium deficiency (the K of the NPK numbers) seems to be very common the larger the plant gets when growing in pots since the roots usually cannot grow deeper into the soil to get the amounts needed. It is easy to see examples by doing a web search using:
potassium deficiency in plant leaves
Compare the usual images to what is happening on the plants.

The lack of Potassium will cause a shade of yellow that starts to take over the leaves and then the spots caused by the lack of the nutrient appear shortly after. Many growers will let the leaves remain on the plant while the plant continues to move the nutrient to the new growth.

Many fungus issues on leaves will start with the spots. Severe infections will cause the leaf to turn shades of yellow or brown though I have seen leaves covered with spots stay green for a long time without any yellowing. If the problem cannot be treated then it is best to remove the leaves in an attempt to control the spreading of the fungus.

 

[Lovie]

I have been looking at those photos @Lovie posted in msg #1 and figured two separate issues happening at the same time. The Potassium deficiency (the K of the NPK numbers) seems to be very common the larger the plant gets when growing in pots since the roots usually cannot grow deeper into the soil to get the amounts needed. It is easy to see examples by doing a web search using:
potassium deficiency in plant leaves
Compare the usual images to what is happening on the plants.

The lack of Potassium will cause a shade of yellow that starts to take over the leaves and then the spots caused by the lack of the nutrient appear shortly after. Many growers will let the leaves remain on the plant while the plant continues to move the nutrient to the new growth.

Many fungus issues on leaves will start with the spots. Severe infections will cause the leaf to turn shades of yellow or brown though I have seen leaves covered with spots stay green for a long time without any yellowing. If the problem cannot be treated then it is best to remove the leaves in an attempt to control the spreading of the fungus.

I am doing an organic grow. I fed langbeinite (NPK 0-0-22) a few days ago. I can go back to foliage feeding with CalMag until it breaks down in the soil.

 

[SmokingWings]

I am doing an organic grow. I fed langbeinite (NPK 0-0-22) a few days ago.

The "0-0-22" keeps ringing a bell. Is that the one from Down To Earth that comes in a box?

Down To Earth has another Langbeinite with a 0-0-21.5 ratio that I have on the shelf. It is a "Solution Grade" which I figure is because it is ground up into a very fine powder, "200 mesh or something like that", so the Potassium becomes available quicker. It is supposed to be safe for many hydroponic style systems since it will not plug up some of the small lines, spray openings or pumps.

Several others on the market so a lot of options. They are ones that meet what most of us who want an organic or natural sourced product.

 

[Lovie]

When looking for infected leaves to remove I only found a couple.....but did find something else I am glad I found before it became an issue.

I believe these are caterpillar eggs. Whatever it is, made its way straight to the burn barrel before hatching!

 

[Sueet]

Good catch, that would have been ugly. Dang moths : /

 

[Lovie]

Good catch, that would have been ugly. Dang moths : /

My plants have been thinned out a lot by me removing leaves showing signs of septoria so seeing these things has become a lot easier. If it ever decides to stop raining, then BT sprays for everyone!