To LED or not to LED

[dava04]

Lets Get a discussion going on LED lighting for the purpose of producing massive high yielding plants.

101 go here and read, Light-emitting diode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ok issues for growing with LEDS (add as needed)

Wavelengths that plants find most delicious Red and blue, but what wavelength? nm.
From what I can see its around 425nm in the blue and 720nm in the red.

How do LED compare to HID/HPS etc ?

It seems to me from my experience with street lighting that you are talking at least a 3 times drop in wattage is acceptable when comparing traditional high power lighting to LED so about 100W LED = 400W HPS, what do you think?

However this isn't strictly true, as we have Highbay lighting that is a replacement for warehouses, they are 60W and kick out 3900lm, LUX@3m 1490, this is around 12000lm for a traditional light, with a substantially better LUX figure.

Does anyone have real world experience with these things, please contribute!

But then there is the light quality CRI/efficency, if an LED is 100% efficient and packs a high LUX (lm/m2) (which is relevant despite what some websites say) punch than a typical HPS or HID then how is this affecting growing?
It seems logical to think that a large HPS may be cheaper but the waste of power is great, especially when you compare specified output and real out put, has any actaully tested their lights to see if they come close to specified output?
I have read on a light website, that LUX and lumens are irrelevant for growers, really? The site says that the only relevant figures are wavelength, ok!
But if you have a light that produces the perfect red wavelength say 425nm and has a lm output of one, and another light has the same wavelength and a lm output of 100, which one do we think is better?
I smell a little BS.

What is the coverage you desire? A typical HPS has what kind of light beam angle? or you use a mounting to achieve what angle? Any ideas how much light is lost when the light is reflected out of the mounting you use?
LEDS come in various angles 10/20/30/60/90/120 and 180 degree with the use of various lenses, and most numbers in between.

What do the experienced among you feel is a good coverage?
What is better intensity or coverage m2? How to balance the two?

Does anyone have access to a light meter, like I was talking about above it would be interesting to find out how much of the light from your 400W HPS actually makes it to the tip of the leaf, in comparison to an LED that is already a focused light source.
When I gt some time I will take some LED sources and make some reading at various levels to see.

We may start to see why there is the ambiguity between LED and HPS for instance as much more light is already focused on the plant compared to the HPS and a ballast or hood, so much less wasted?

Heat and efficiency are givens, for the amount of power you use LED wins hands down, its not worth talking about, for example a 100 lumen 1 watt LED uses 350mA that's 1:1 power and bugger all current drawn.

Cost, break out the hankies, but why? Whats a system going for these days, why do we think they cost that much?

Small LED's the 5mm variety super bright, around 10000mcd max for the red and not much more 8000 mcd for the blue, this is an excellent power output, the kind used in traffic lights and applications like.
For those of you with electrical as well as green thumbs why not build a system, any how to guides or do we think the average Joe will do more than burn his plants but take the neighborhood with him.

Questions questions question, and some answers, I thought it would be nice to have on thread that can bring all the issues together and find some sensible solutions, and give real answers to those mystical questions.

Add as much as you can.

 

[Smokin Moose]

I am unable to post the images, but here is a start to this thread. Some tech info.

Light-emitting diode
From Wikipedia,

A light-emitting diode, usually called an LED (pronounced /ˌɛliːˈdiː/)[1], is a semiconductor diode that emits incoherent narrow-spectrum light when electrically biased in the forward direction of the p-n junction, as in the common LED circuit. This effect is a form of electroluminescence.

An LED is usually a small area light source, often with optics added to the chip to shape its radiation pattern.[2][3] LEDs are often used as small indicator lights on electronic devices and increasingly in higher power applications such as flashlights and area lighting. The color of the emitted light depends on the composition and condition of the semiconducting material used, and can be infrared, visible, or ultraviolet. LEDs can also be used as a regular household light source. Besides lighting, interesting applications include sterilization of water and disinfection of devices.[4]

LED panels

There are two types of LED panels: conventional, using discrete LEDs, and surface mounted device (SMD) panels. Most outdoor screens and some indoor screens are built around discrete LEDs, also known as individually mounted LEDs. A cluster of red, green, and blue diodes is driven together to form a full-color pixel, usually square in shape. These pixels are spaced evenly apart and are measured from center to center for absolute pixel resolution. The largest LED display in the world is over 1,500 foot (457.2 m) long and is located in Las Vegas, Nevada covering the Fremont Street Experience.

LED technology

Physical function

Like a normal diode, the LED consists of a chip of semiconducting material impregnated, or doped, with impurities to create a p-n junction. As in other diodes, current flows easily from the p-side, or anode, to the n-side, or cathode, but not in the reverse direction. Charge-carriers—electrons and holes—flow into the junction from electrodes with different voltages. When an electron meets a hole, it falls into a lower energy level, and releases energy in the form of a photon.

The wavelength of the light emitted, and therefore its color, depends on the band gap energy of the materials forming the p-n junction. In silicon or germanium diodes, the electrons and holes recombine by a non-radiative transition which produces no optical emission, because these are indirect band gap materials. The materials used for the LED have a direct band gap with energies corresponding to near-infrared, visible or near-ultraviolet light.

LED development began with infrared and red devices made with gallium arsenide. Advances in materials science have made possible the production of devices with ever-shorter wavelengths, producing light in a variety of colors.

LEDs are usually built on an n-type substrate, with an electrode attached to the p-type layer deposited on its surface. P-type substrates, while less common, occur as well. Many commercial LEDs, especially GaN/InGaN, also use sapphire substrate. Substrates that are transparent to the emitted wavelength, and backed by a reflective layer, and light spreading layer, increase the LED efficiency. The refractive index of the package material should match the index of the semiconductor, otherwise the produced light gets partially reflected back into the semiconductor, where it may be absorbed and turned into additional heat, thus lowering the efficiency. This type of reflection also occurs at the surface of the package if the LED is coupled to a medium with a different refractive index such as a glass fiber or air. The refractive index of most LED semiconductors is quite high, so in almost all cases the LED is coupled into a much lower-index medium. The large index difference makes the reflection quite substantial (per the Fresnel coefficients), and this is usually one of the dominant causes of LED inefficiency. Often more than half of the emitted light is reflected back at the LED-package and package-air interfaces. The reflection is most commonly reduced by using a dome-shaped (half-sphere) package with the diode in the center so that the outgoing light rays strike the surface perpendicularly, at which angle the reflection is minimized. An anti-reflection coating may be added as well. The package may be cheap plastic, which may be colored, but this is only for cosmetic reasons or to improve the contrast ratio; the color of the packaging does not substantially affect the color of the light emitted. Other strategies for reducing the impact of the interface reflections include designing the LED to reabsorb and reemit the reflected light (called photon recycling) and manipulating the microscopic structure of the surface to reduce the reflectance, either by introducing random roughness or by creating programmed moth eye surface patterns.

Conventional LEDs are made from a variety of inorganic semiconductor materials, producing the following colors:

* Aluminium gallium arsenide (AlGaAs) — red and infrared
* Aluminium gallium phosphide (AlGaP) — green
* Aluminium gallium indium phosphide (AlGaInP) — high-brightness orange-red, orange, yellow, and green
* Gallium arsenide phosphide (GaAsP) — red, orange-red, orange, and yellow
* Gallium phosphide (GaP) — red, yellow and green
* Gallium nitride (GaN) — green, pure green (or emerald green), and blue also white (if it has an AlGaN Quantum Barrier)
* Indium gallium nitride (InGaN) — 450–470 nm — near ultraviolet, bluish-green and blue
* Silicon carbide (SiC) as substrate — blue
* Silicon (Si) as substrate — blue (under development)
* Sapphire (Al2O3) as substrate — blue
* Zinc selenide (ZnSe) — blue
* Diamond (C) — ultraviolet
* Aluminium nitride (AlN), aluminium gallium nitride (AlGaN), aluminium gallium indium nitride (AlGaInN) — near to far ultraviolet (down to 210 nm[13])

With this wide variety of colors, arrays of multicolor LEDs can be designed to produce unconventional color patterns.[14]

Ultraviolet and blue LEDs
Blue LEDs are based on the wide band gap semiconductors GaN (gallium nitride) and InGaN (indium gallium nitride). They can be added to existing red and green LEDs to produce the impression of white light, though white LEDs today rarely use this principle.

The first blue LEDs were made in 1971 by Jacques Pankove (inventor of the gallium nitride LED) at RCA Laboratories.[15] However, these devices were too feeble to be of much practical use. In the late 1980s, key breakthroughs in GaN epitaxial growth and p-type doping by Isamu Akasaki and Hiroshi Amano (Nagoya, Japan) [16] ushered in the modern era of GaN-based optoelectronic devices. Building upon this foundation, in 1993 high brightness blue LEDs were demonstrated through the work of Shuji Nakamura at Nichia Corporation.[17]

By the late 1990s, blue LEDs had become widely available. They have an active region consisting of one or more InGaN quantum wells sandwiched between thicker layers of GaN, called cladding layers. By varying the relative InN-GaN fraction in the InGaN quantum wells, the light emission can be varied from violet to amber. AlGaN aluminium gallium nitride of varying AlN fraction can be used to manufacture the cladding and quantum well layers for ultraviolet LEDs, but these devices have not yet reached the level of efficiency and technological maturity of the InGaN-GaN blue/green devices. If the active quantum well layers are GaN, as opposed to alloyed InGaN or AlGaN, the device will emit near-ultraviolet light with wavelengths around 350–370 nm. Green LEDs manufactured from the InGaN-GaN system are far more efficient and brighter than green LEDs produced with non-nitride material systems.

With nitrides containing aluminium, most often AlGaN and AlGaInN, even shorter wavelengths are achievable. Ultraviolet LEDs in a range of wavelengths are becoming available on the market. Near-UV emitters at wavelengths around 375–395 nm are already cheap and often encountered, for example, as black light lamp replacements for inspection of anti-counterfeiting UV watermarks in some documents and paper currencies. Shorter wavelength diodes, while substantially more expensive, are commercially available for wavelengths down to 247 nm.[18] As the photosensitivity of microorganisms approximately matches the absorption spectrum of DNA, with a peak at about 260 nm, UV LEDs emitting at 250–270 nm are to be expected in prospective disinfection and sterilisation devices. Recent research has shown that commercially available UVA LEDs (365 nm) are already effective disinfection and sterilisation devices.[4]

Wavelengths down to 210 nm were obtained in laboratories using aluminium nitride.

While not actually LEDs as such, ordinary NPN bipolar transistor will emit violet light if its emitter-base junction is subjected to non-destructive reverse breakdown. This is easy to demonstrate by filing the top off a metal-can transistor (BC107, 2N2222 or similar) and biasing it well above emitter-base breakdown (≥ 20 V) via a current-limiting resistor.

White LEDs
Spectrum of a “white” LED clearly showing blue light which is directly emitted by the GaN-based LED (peak at about 465 nm) and the more broadband Stokes-shifted light emitted by the Ce3+:YAG phosphor which emits at roughly 500–700 nm.


A combination of red, green and blue LEDs can produce the impression of white light, though white LEDs today rarely use this principle. Most “white” LEDs in production are modified blue LEDs: GaN-based, InGaN-active-layer LEDs emit blue light of wavelengths between 450 nm and 470 nm. This InGaN-GaN structure is covered with a yellowish phosphor coating usually made of cerium-doped yttrium aluminum garnet (Ce3+:YAG) crystals which have been powdered and bound in a type of viscous adhesive. The LED chip emits blue light, part of which is efficiently converted to a broad spectrum centered at about 580 nm (yellow) by the Ce3+:YAG. Since yellow light stimulates the red and green receptors of the eye, the resulting mix of blue and yellow light gives the appearance of white, the resulting shade often called “lunar white”. This approach was developed by Nichia Corporation and has been used since 1996 for the manufacture of white LEDs.

The pale yellow emission of the Ce3+:YAG can be tuned by substituting the cerium with other rare earth elements such as terbium and gadolinium and can even be further adjusted by substituting some or all of the aluminum in the YAG with gallium. Due to the spectral characteristics of the diode, the red and green colors of objects in its blue yellow light are not as vivid as in broad-spectrum light. Manufacturing variations and varying thicknesses in the phosphor make the LEDs produce light with different color temperatures, from warm yellowish to cold bluish; the LEDs have to be sorted during manufacture by their actual characteristics. Philips Lumileds patented conformal coating process addresses the issue of varying phosphor thickness, giving the white LEDs a more consistent spectrum of white light.

White LEDs can also be made by coating near ultraviolet (NUV) emitting LEDs with a mixture of high efficiency europium-based red and blue emitting phosphors plus green emitting copper and aluminum doped zinc sulfide (ZnS:Cu, Al). This is a method analogous to the way fluorescent lamps work. However the ultraviolet light causes photodegradation to the epoxy resin and many other materials used in LED packaging, causing manufacturing challenges and shorter lifetimes. This method is less efficient than the blue LED with YAG:Ce phosphor, as the Stokes shift is larger and more energy is therefore converted to heat, but yields light with better spectral characteristics, which render color better. Due to the higher radiative output of the ultraviolet LEDs than of the blue ones, both approaches offer comparable brightness.

The newest method used to produce white light LEDs uses no phosphors at all and is based on homoepitaxially grown zinc selenide (ZnSe) on a ZnSe substrate which simultaneously emits blue light from its active region and yellow light from the substrate

A new technique developed by Michael Bowers, a graduate student at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, involves coating a blue LED with quantum dots that glow white in response to the blue light from the LED. This technique produces a warm, yellowish-white light similar to that produced by incandescent bulbs.[19]

Quantum Dot LEDs

Quantum Dots are semiconductor nanocrystals that possess unique optical properties.[20] Their emission color can be tuned from the visible throughout the infrared spectrum. This allows quantum dot LEDs to create almost any color on the CIE diagram. This provides more color options and better color rendering white LEDs. Quantum dot LEDs are available in the same package types as traditional phosphor based LEDs.

Organic light-emitting diodes (OLEDs)


Combined spectral curves for blue, yellow-green, and high brightness red solid-state semiconductor LEDs. FWHM spectral bandwidth is approximately 24–27 nm for all three colors.

If the emitting layer material of the LED is an organic compound, it is known as an Organic Light Emitting Diode (OLED). To function as a semiconductor, the organic emitting material must have conjugated pi bonds. The emitting material can be a small organic molecule in a crystalline phase, or a polymer. Polymer materials can be flexible; such LEDs are known as PLEDs or FLEDs.

Compared with regular LEDs, OLEDs are lighter, and polymer LEDs can have the added benefit of being flexible. Some possible future applications of OLEDs could be:

* Inexpensive, flexible displays
* Light sources
* Wall decorations
* Luminous cloth

OLEDs have been used to produce visual displays for portable electronic devices such as cellphones, digital cameras, and MP3 players. Larger displays have been demonstrated, but their life expectancy is still far too short (<1,000 hours) to be practical.

Efficiency and operational parameters

Most typical LEDs are designed to operate with no more than 30–60 milliwatts (mW) of electrical power. Around 1999, Philips Lumileds introduced power LEDs capable of continuous use at one watt (W). These LEDs used much larger semiconductor die sizes to handle the large power inputs. Also, the semiconductor dies were mounted onto metal slugs to allow for heat removal from the LED die.

One of the key advantages of LED-based lighting is its high efficiency, as measured by its light output per unit power input. White LEDs quickly matched and overtook the efficiency of standard incandescent lighting systems. In 2002, Lumileds made five-watt LEDs available with a luminous efficacy of 18–22 lumens per watt (lm/W). For comparison, a conventional 60–100 W incandescent lightbulb produces around 15 lm/W, and standard fluorescent lights produce up to 100 lm/W. (The luminous efficacy article discusses these comparisons in more detail.)

In September 2003, a new type of blue LED was demonstrated by the company Cree, Inc. to provide 24 mW at 20 milliamperes (mA). This produced a commercially packaged white light giving 65 lm/W at 20 mA, becoming the brightest white LED commercially available at the time, and more than four times as efficient as standard incandescents. In 2006 they demonstrated a prototype with a record white LED luminous efficacy of 131 lm/W at 20 mA. Also, Seoul Semiconductor has plans for 135 lm/W by 2007 and 145 lm/W by 2008, which would be approaching an order of magnitude improvement over standard incandescents and better even than standard fluorescents.[21] Nichia Corporation has developed a white light LED with luminous efficacy of 150 lm/W at a forward current of 20 mA.[22]

It should be noted that high-power (≥ 1 W) LEDs are necessary for practical general lighting applications. Typical operating currents for these devices begin at 350 mA. The highest efficiency high-power white LED is claimed by Philips Lumileds Lighting Co. with a luminous efficacy of 115 lm/W (350 mA).

Potential of OLEDs

Today, OLEDs operate at substantially lower efficiency than inorganic (crystalline) LEDs. The best luminous efficacy of an OLED so far is about 10% of the theoretical maximum of 683 for “white” light, or about 68 lm/W. These claim to be much cheaper to fabricate than inorganic LEDs, and large arrays of them can be deposited on a screen using simple printing methods to create a color graphical display.

Failure modes

The most common way for LEDs (and diode lasers) to fail is the gradual lowering of light output and loss of efficiency. However, sudden failures can occur as well.

The mechanism of degradation of the active region, where the radiative recombination occurs, involves nucleation and growth of dislocations; this requires a presence of an existing defect in the crystal and is accelerated by heat, high current density, and emitted light. Gallium arsenide and aluminium gallium arsenide are more susceptible to this mechanism than gallium arsenide phosphide and indium phosphide. Due to different properties of the active regions, gallium nitride and indium gallium nitride are virtually insensitive to this kind of defect; however, high current density can cause electromigration of atoms out of the active regions, leading to emergence of dislocations and point defects, acting as nonradiative recombination centers and producing heat instead of light. Ionizing radiation can lead to the creation of such defects as well, which leads to issues with radiation hardening of circuits containing LEDs (e.g., in optoisolators). Early red LEDs were notable for their short lifetime.

White LEDs often use one or more phosphors. The phosphors tend to degrade with heat and age, losing efficiency and causing changes in the produced light color. Pink LEDs often use an organic phosphor formulation which may degrade after just a few hours of operation causing a major shift in output color.

High electrical currents at elevated temperatures can cause diffusion of metal atoms from the electrodes into the active region. Some materials, notably indium tin oxide and silver, are subject to electromigration with the conseguence of leakage current and non radiative recombination along the chip edges. In some cases, especially with GaN/InGaN diodes, a barrier metal layer is used to hinder the electromigration effects. Mechanical stresses, high currents, and corrosive environment can lead to formation of whiskers, causing short circuits.

High-power LEDs are susceptible to current crowding, nonhomogenous distribution of the current density over the junction. This may lead to creation of localized hot spots, which poses risk of thermal runaway. Nonhomogenities in the substrate, causing localized loss of thermal conductivity, aggravate the situation; most common ones are voids caused by incomplete soldering, or by electromigration effects and Kirkendall voiding. Thermal runaway is a common cause of LED failures.

Laser diodes may be subject to catastrophic optical damage, when the light output exceeds a critical level and causes melting of the facet.

Some materials of the plastic package tend to yellow when subjected to heat, causing partial absorption (and therefore loss of efficiency) of the affected wavelengths.

Sudden failures are most often caused by thermal stresses. When the epoxy resin used in packaging reaches its glass transition temperature, it starts rapidly expanding, causing mechanical stresses on the semiconductor and the bonded contact, weakening it or even tearing it off. Conversely, very low temperatures can cause cracking of the packaging.

Electrostatic discharge (ESD) may cause immediate failure of the semiconductor junction, a permanent shift of its parameters, or latent damage causing increased rate of degradation. LEDs and lasers grown on sapphire substrate are more susceptible to ESD damage.

Research on DNA

The DNA in salmon sperm has recently been discovered to amplify the effects and quality of an LED light. [1]

See research at University of Cincinnati: Salmon Garnish Points the Way to Green Electronics

Articles from the UK: Top US boffin plans jizz-based LEDs | The Register

Considerations in use
Unlike incandescent light bulbs, which light up regardless of the electrical polarity, LEDs will only light with correct electrical polarity. When the voltage across the p-n junction is in the correct direction, a significant current flows and the device is said to be forward-biased. If the voltage is of the wrong polarity, the device is said to be reverse biased, very little current flows, and no light is emitted. Some LEDs can be operated on an alternating current voltage, but they will only light with positive voltage, causing the LED to turn on and off at the frequency of the AC supply.

While the only definitive way to determine the polarity of the LED is to examine its datasheet, these methods are usually reliable:
sign: + -
terminal: anode (A) cathode (K)
leads: long short
exterior: round flat
interior: small large
wiring: red black

Less reliable methods of determining polarity are:
sign: + -
marking: none stripe
pin: 1 2
PCB: round square

While it is not an officially reliable method, it is almost universally true that the cup that holds the LED die corresponds to the cathode. It is strongly recommended to apply a safe voltage and observe the illumination as a test regardless of what method is used to determine the polarity.

Because the voltage versus current characteristics of the LED are much like any diode (that is, current approximately an exponential function of voltage), a small voltage change results in a huge change in current. Added to deviations in the process this means that a voltage source may barely make one LED light while taking another of the same type beyond its maximum ratings and potentially destroying it.

Since the voltage is logarithmically related to the current it can be considered to remain largely constant over the LED's operating range. Thus the power can be considered to be essentially proportional to the current. In order to keep power nearly constant with variations in supply and LED characteristics, the power supply should be a “current source”, that is, it should supply an almost constant current. If high efficiency is not required (e.g., in most indicator applications), an approximation to a current source is made by connecting the LED in series with a current limiting resistor to a regulated voltage source.

Most LEDs have low reverse breakdown voltage ratings, so they will also be damaged by an applied reverse voltage of more than a few volts. Since some manufacturers don't follow the indicator standards above, if possible the data sheet should be consulted before hooking up the LED, or the LED may be tested in series with a resistor on a sufficiently low voltage supply to avoid the reverse breakdown. If it is desired to drive the LED directly from an AC supply of more than the reverse breakdown voltage then it may be protected by placing a diode (or another LED) in inverse parallel.

LEDs can be purchased with built in series resistors. These can save PCB space and are especially useful when building prototypes or populating a PCB in a way other than its designers intended. However the resistor value is set at the time of manufacture, removing one of the key methods of setting the LED's intensity. To increase efficiency (or to allow intensity control without the complexity of a DAC), the power may be applied periodically or intermittently; so long as the flicker rate is greater than the human flicker fusion threshold, the LED will appear to be continuously lit.

Multiple LEDs can be connected in series with a single current limiting resistor provided the source voltage is greater than the sum of the individual LED threshold voltages. Parallel operation is also possible but can be more problematic. Parallel LEDs must have closely matched forward voltages (Vf) in order to have equal branch currents and, therefore, equal light output. Variations in the manufacturing process can make it difficult to obtain satisfactory operation when connecting some types of LEDs in parallel.[23]

Bicolor LED units contain two diodes, one in each direction (that is, two diodes in inverse parallel) and each a different color (typically red and green), allowing two-color operation or a range of apparent colors to be created by altering the percentage of time the voltage is in each polarity. Other LED units contain two or more diodes (of different colors) arranged in either a common anode or common cathode configuration. These can be driven to different colors without reversing the polarity, however, more than two electrodes (leads) are required.

LEDs are usually constantly illuminated when a current passes through them, but flashing LEDs are also available. Flashing LEDs resemble standard LEDs but they contain an integrated multivibrator circuit inside which causes the LED to flash with a typical period of one second. This type of LED comes most commonly as red, yellow, or green. Most flashing LEDs emit light of a single wavelength, but multicolored flashing LEDs are available too.

Generally, for newer common standard LEDs in 3 mm or 5 mm packages, the following forward DC potential differences are typically measured. The forward potential difference depending on the LED's chemistry, temperature, and on the current (values here are for approx. 20 mA, a commonly-found maximum value).
Color Potential Difference (Vf)
Infrared 1.6 V
Red 1.8–2.1 V
Orange 2.2 V
Yellow 2.4 V
Green 2.6 V
Blue 3.0–3.5 V
White 3.0–3.5 V
Ultraviolet 3.5 V

Many LEDs are rated at 3 V maximum reverse potential.

LEDs also behave as photocells, and will generate a current depending on the ambient light. They are not efficient as photocells, and will only produce a few microamperes (µA), but will produce a surprising electrical potential—as much as 2 or 3 V. This is enough to operate an amplifier or a CMOS logic gate. This effect can be used to make an inexpensive light sensor, for example to decide when to turn on the LED illuminator.

Advantages of using LEDs

* LEDs produce more light per watt than incandescent bulbs; this is useful in battery powered or energy-saving devices. [24]
* LEDs can emit light of an intended color without the use of color filters that traditional lighting methods require. This is more efficient and can lower initial costs.
* The solid package of the LED can be designed to focus its light. Incandescent and fluorescent sources often require an external reflector to collect light and direct it in a usable manner.
* When used in applications where dimming is required, LEDs do not change their color tint as the current passing through them is lowered, unlike incandescent lamps, which turn yellow.
* LEDs are ideal for use in applications that are subject to frequent on-off cycling, unlike fluorescent lamps that burn out more quickly when cycled frequently, or HID lamps that require a long time before restarting.
* LEDs, being solid state components, are difficult to damage with external shock. Fluorescent and incandescent bulbs are easily broken if dropped on the ground.
* LEDs can have a relatively long useful life. One report estimates 35,000 to 50,000 hours of useful life, though time to complete failure may be longer.[25] Fluorescent tubes typically are rated at about 30,000 hours, and incandescent light bulbs at 1,000–2,000 hours.[citation needed]
* LEDs mostly fail by dimming over time, rather than the abrupt burn-out of incandescent bulbs.[26]
* LEDs light up very quickly. A typical red indicator LED will achieve full brightness in microseconds; Philips Lumileds technical datasheet DS23 for the Luxeon Star states “less than 100ns.” LEDs used in communications devices can have even faster response times.
* LEDs can be very small and are easily populated onto printed circuit boards.
* LEDs do not contain mercury, unlike compact fluorescent lamps.

LEDs are produced in an array of shapes and sizes. The 5 mm cylindrical package (red, fifth from the left) is the most common, estimated at 80% of world production. The color of the plastic lens is often the same as the actual color of light emitted, but not always. For instance, purple plastic is often used for infrared LEDs, and most blue devices have clear housings. There are also LEDs in extremely tiny packages, such as those found on blinkies and on cell phone keypads. (not shown).
LEDs are produced in an array of shapes and sizes. The 5 mm cylindrical package (red, fifth from the left) is the most common, estimated at 80% of world production. The color of the plastic lens is often the same as the actual color of light emitted, but not always. For instance, purple plastic is often used for infrared LEDs, and most blue devices have clear housings. There are also LEDs in extremely tiny packages, such as those found on blinkies and on cell phone keypads. (not shown).

Disadvantages of using LEDs

* LEDs are currently more expensive, price per lumen, on an initial capital cost basis, than more conventional lighting technologies. The additional expense partially stems from the relatively low lumen output and the drive circuitry and power supplies needed. However, when considering the total cost of ownership (including energy and maintenance costs), LEDs far surpass incandescent or halogen sources and begin to threaten compact fluorescent lamps. In December 2007, scientists at Glasgow University claimed to have found a way to make Light Emitting Diodes brighter and use less power than energy efficient light bulbs currently on the market by imprinting holes into billions of LEDs in a new and cost effective method using a process known as nanoimprint lithography. [27]
* LED performance largely depends on the ambient temperature of the operating environment. Over-driving the LED in high ambient temperatures may result in overheating of the LED package, eventually leading to device failure. Adequate heat-sinking is required to maintain long life. This is especially important when considering automotive, medical, and military applications where the device must operate over a large range of temperatures, and is required to have a low failure rate.
* LEDs must be supplied with the correct current. This can involve series resistors or current-regulated power supplies.[28]
* The spectrum of some white LEDs differs significantly from a black body radiator, such as the sun or an incandescent light. The spike at 460 nm and dip at 500 nm can cause the color of objects to be perceived differently under LED illumination than sunlight or incandescent sources, due to metamerism.[29] Color rendering properties of common fluorescent lamps are often inferior to what is now available in state-of-art white LEDs.
* LEDs do not approximate a “point source” of light, so cannot be used in applications needing a highly collimated beam. LEDs are not capable of providing divergence below a few degrees. This is contrasted with commercial ruby lasers with divergences of 0.2 degrees or less.[30] This can be corrected by using lenses and other optical devices.
* There is increasing concern that blue LEDs and white LEDs are now capable of exceeding safe limits of the so-called blue-light hazard as defined in eye safety specifications such as ANSI/IESNA RP-27.1-05: Recommended Practice for Photobiological Safety for Lamp and Lamp Systems.[31][32]

Types

There are three main types of LEDs: miniature, alphanumeric, and illumination.

Miniature LEDs

These are mostly single-die LEDs used as indicators, and they come in various-size packages:

* surface mount
* 2 mm
* 3 mm (T1)
* 5 mm (T1³⁄₄)
* Other sizes are also available, but less common.

Common package shapes:

* Round, dome top
* Round, flat top
* Rectangular, flat top (often seen in LED bar-graph displays)
* Triangular or square, flat top

The encapsulation may also be clear or semi opaque to improve contrast and viewing angle.

There are three main categories of miniature single die LEDs:

* Low current — typically rated for 2 mA at around 2 V (approximately 4 mW consumption).
* Standard — 20 mA LEDs at around 2 V (approximately 40 mW) for red, orange, yellow & green, and 20 mA at 4–5 V (approximately 100 mW) for blue, violet and white.
* Ultra-high output — 20 mA at approximately 2 V or 4–5 V, designed for viewing in direct sunlight.

Multi-color LEDs

A “bi-color LED” is actually two different LEDs in one case. It consists of two dies connected to the same two leads but in opposite directions. Current flow in one direction produces one color, and current in the other direction produces the another color. Alternating the two colors with sufficient frequency causes the appearance of a third color.

A “tri-color LED” is also two LEDs in one case, but the two LEDs are connected to separate leads so that the two LEDs can be controlled independently and lit simultaneously.

RGB LEDs contain red, green and blue emitters, generally using a four-wire connection with one common (anode or cathode).

Five- and twelve-volt LEDs

These are miniature LEDs incorporating a series resistor, and may be connected directly to a 5 V or 12 V supply.

Flashing LEDs

These miniature LEDs flash when connected to 5 V or 12 V. Used as attention seeking indicators where it is desired to avoid the complexity of external electronics.

Alphanumeric LEDs

LED displays are available in seven-segment and starburst format. Seven-segment displays handle all numbers and a limited set of letters. Starburst displays can display all letters.

Seven-segment LED displays were in widespread use in the 1970s and 1980s, but increasing use of liquid crystal displays, with their lower power consumption and greater display flexibility, has reduced the popularity of numeric and alphanumeric LED displays.

Lighting LEDs

LED lamps (also called LED bars or Illuminators) are usually clusters of LEDs in a suitable housing. They come in different shapes, among them the light bulb shape with a large E27 Edison screw and MR16 shape with a bi-pin base. Other models might have a small Edison E14 fitting, GU5.3 (Bipin cap) or GU10 (bayonet socket). This includes low-voltage (typically 12 V halogen-like) varieties and replacements for regular AC mains (120-240 V AC) lighting. Currently the latter are less widely available but this is changing rapidly.

Seoul Semiconductor Co., Ltd produces LEDs that can run directly from mains power without the need for a DC converter. For each half cycle part of the LED diode emits light and part is dark, and this is reversed during the next half cycle. Current efficiency is 80 lm/W. [33]


LED applications
LED panel light source used in an experiment on plant growth. The findings of such experiments may be used to grow food in space on long duration missions.
LED panel light source used in an experiment on plant growth. The findings of such experiments may be used to grow food in space on long duration missions.

Flashlights and lanterns that utilize white LEDs are becoming increasingly popular due to their durability and longer battery life.
Flashlights and lanterns that utilize white LEDs are becoming increasingly popular due to their durability and longer battery life.
A single high-intensity LED with a glass lens creates a bright carrier beam that can stream DVD-quality video over considerable distances. The device, RONJA, can be built very simply by enthusiasts.
A single high-intensity LED with a glass lens creates a bright carrier beam that can stream DVD-quality video over considerable distances. The device, RONJA, can be built very simply by enthusiasts.

List of LED applications

Some of these applications are further elaborated upon in the following text.

Devices, medical applications, clothing, toys

* Remote controls, such as for TVs and VCRs, often use infrared LEDs.
* Glowlights, as a more expensive but longer lasting and reusable alternative to Glowsticks.
* Movement sensors, for example in optical computer mice
* The Nintendo Wii's sensor bar uses infrared LEDs.
* In optical fiber and Free Space Optics communications.
* Toys and recreational sporting goods, such as the Flashflight
* Lumalive, a photonic textile
* In pulse oximeters for measuring oxygen saturation
* LED phototherapy for acne using blue or red LEDs has been proven to significantly reduce acne over a three-month period.[citation needed]
* Some flatbed scanners use an array of red, green, and blue LEDs rather than the typical cold-cathode fluorescent lamp as the light source. Having independent control of three illuminated colors allows the scanner to calibrate itself for more accurate color balance, and there is no need for warm-up.
* Computers, for hard drive activity and power on. Some custom computers feature LED accent lighting to draw attention to a given component. Many computer manufacturers use LEDs to tell the user its current state. One example would be the Mac, which tells its user when it is asleep by fading the LED activity lights in and out, in and out.
* Sterilization of water and other substances using UV light.[4]

Lighting

* Grow lights composed of LEDs are more efficient, both because LEDs produce more lumens per watt than other alternatives, and also because they can be tuned to the specific wavelengths plants can make the most use of.[citation needed]
* Light bulbs
* Lanterns
* Streetlights
* Large scale video displays
* Architectural lighting
* Light source for machine vision systems, requiring bright, focused, homogeneous and possibly strobed illumination.
* Motorcycle and Bicycle lights
* Flashlights, including some mechanically powered models.
* Emergency vehicle lighting
* Backlighting for LCD televisions and displays. The availability of LEDs in specific colors (RGB) enables a full-spectrum light source which expands the color gamut by as much as 45%.
* Stage lights using banks of LED's as replacement for incandescent bulbs. LED's produce less heat so LED stage lighting is cheaper to operate and reduces the risk of fire considerably.
* LED-based Christmas lights have been available since 2002, but are only now beginning to gain in popularity and acceptance due to their higher initial purchase cost when compared to similar incandescent-based Christmas lights. For example, as of 2006, a set of 50 incandescent lights might cost US$2, while a similar set of 50 LED lights might cost US$10. The purchase cost can be even higher for single-color sets of LED lights with rare or recently-introduced colors, such as purple, pink or white. Regardless of the higher initial purchase price, the total cost of ownership for LED Christmas lights would eventually be lower than the TCO for similar incandescent Christmas lights[citation needed] since the LED requires much less power to output the same amount of light as a similar incandescent bulb. More to the point, LEDs have practically unlimited life and are hard-wired rather than using unreliable sockets as do replaceable bulbs. So a set of LED lights can be expected to outlive many incandescent sets, and without any maintenance.

Indicators and signs

* Status indicators on a variety of equipment
* Traffic lights and signals
* Exit signs
* Railroad crossing signals
* Continuity indicators
* Elevator push-button Lighting
* Thin, lightweight message displays at airports and railway stations, and as destination displays for trains, buses, trams, and ferries.
* Red or yellow LEDs are used in indicator and alphanumeric displays in environments where night vision must be retained: aircraft cockpits, submarine and ship bridges, astronomy observatories, and in the field, e.g. night time animal watching and military field use.
* Red, yellow, green, and blue LEDs can be used for model railroading applications
* In dot matrix arrangements for displaying messages.
* Because of their long life and fast switching times, LEDs have been used for automotive high-mounted brake lights and truck and bus brake lights and turn signals for some time, but many high-end vehicles are now starting to use LEDs for their entire rear light clusters. Besides the gain in reliability, this has styling advantages because LEDs are capable of forming much thinner lights than incandescent lamps with parabolic reflectors. The significant improvement in the time taken to light up (perhaps 0.5s faster than an incandescent bulb) improves safety by giving drivers more time to react. It has been reported that at normal highway speeds this equals one car length increased reaction time for the car behind. White LED headlamps are beginning to make an appearance.
* As a medium quality voltage reference in electronic circuits. The forward voltage drop (e.g., about 1.7 V for a normal red LED) can be used instead of a Zener diode in low-voltage regulators. Although LED forward voltage is much more current-dependent than a good Zener, Zener diodes are not available below voltages of about 3 V.

Optoisolators and optocouplers

Main article: Opto-isolator


The LED may be combined with a photodiode or phototransistor in a single electronic device to provide a signal path with electrical isolation between two circuits. An optoisolator will have typical breakdown voltages between the input and output circuits of typically 500–3000 V. This is especially useful in medical equipment where the signals from a low voltage sensor circuit (usually battery powered) in contact with a living organism must be electrically isolated from any possible electrical failure in a recording or monitoring device operating at potentially dangerous voltages. An optoisolator also allows information to be transferred between circuits not sharing a common ground potential. An optocoupler may not have such high breakdown voltages and may even share a ground between input and output, but both types are useful in preventing electrical noise, particularly common mode electrical noise, on a sensor circuit from being transferred to the receiving circuit (where it may adversely affect the operation or durability of various components) and/or transferring a noisy signal. Optoisolators are also used in the feedback circuit of a DC to DC converter, allowing power to be transferred while retaining electrical isolation between the input and output.

Light sources for machine vision systems

Machine vision systems often require bright and homogeneous illumination, so features of interest are easier to process. LEDs are often used to this purpose, and this field of application is likely to remain one of the major application areas until price drops low enough to make signaling and illumination applications more widespread. LEDs constitute a nearly ideal light source for machine vision systems for several main reasons:

* Size of illuminated field is usually comparatively small and Vision systems or smart camera are quite expensive, so cost of LEDs is usually a minor concern, compared to signaling applications.
* LED elements tend to be small and can be placed with high density over flat or even shaped substrates (PCBs etc) so that bright and homogeneous sources can be designed which direct light from tightly controlled directions on inspected parts.
* LEDs often have or can be used with small, inexpensive lenses and diffusers, helping to achieve high light densities and very good lighting control and homogeneity.
* LEDs can be easily strobed (in the microsecond range and below) and synchronized; their power also has reached high enough levels that sufficiently high intensity can be obtained, allowing well lit images even with very short light pulses: this is often used in order to obtain crisp and sharp “still” images of quickly-moving parts.
* LEDs come in several different colors and wavelengths, easily allowing to use the best color for each application, where different color may provide better visibility of features of interest. Having a precisely known spectrum allows tightly matched filters to be used to separate informative bandwidth or to reduce disturbing effect of ambient light.
* LEDs usually operate at comparatively low working temperatures, simplifying heat management and dissipation, therefore allowing plastic lenses, filters and diffusers to be used. Waterproof units can also easily be designed, allowing for use in harsh or wet environments (food, beverage, oil industries).
* LED sources can be shaped in several main configurations (spot lights for reflective illumination; ring lights for coaxial illumination; back lights for contour illumination; linear assemblies; flat, large format panels; dome sources for diffused, omnidirectional illumination).
* Very compact designs are possible, allowing for small LED illuminators to be integrated within smart cameras and vision sensors.

Power sources

LEDs have very low dynamic resistance, with the same voltage drop for widely varying currents. Consequently they cannot connect directly to most power sources without self destruction. A current control ballast is normally used, which is sometimes constant current.

Indicator LEDs

Miniature indicator LEDs are normally driven from low voltage DC via a current limiting resistor. Currents of 2 mA, 10 mA and 20 mA are common. Some low current indicators are only rated to 2 mA, and should not be driven at higher current.

Sub-mA indicators may be made by driving ultrabright LEDs at very low current. Efficacy tends to reduce at low currents, but indicators running on 100 μA are still practical. The cost of ultrabrights is higher than 2 mA indicator LEDs.

LEDs have a low max repeat reverse voltage rating, ranging from approximately 2 V to 5 V, and this can be a problem in some applications. Back to back LEDs are immune to this problem. These are available in single color as well as bicolor types. There are various strategies for reverse voltage handling.

In niche applications such as IR therapy, LEDs are often driven at far above rated current. This causes high failure rate and occasional LED explosions. Thus many parallel strings are used, and a safety screen and ongoing maintenance are required.

Alphanumeric LEDs

These use the same drive strategy as indicator LEDs, the only difference being the larger number of channels, each with its own resistor. Seven-segment and starburst LED arrays are available in both common-anode or common-cathode form.

Lighting LEDs on mains

A CR dropper followed by full wave rectification is the usual ballast with series-parallel LED clusters.

A single series string minimises dropper losses, while paralleled strings increase reliability. In practice usually three strings or more are used.

Operation on square wave and modified sine wave (MSW) sources, such as many invertors, causes heavily increased resistor dissipation in CR droppers, and LED ballasts designed for sine wave use tend to burn on non-sine waveforms. The non-sine waveform also causes high peak LED currents, heavily shortening LED life. An inductor & rectifier makes a more suitable ballast for such use, and other options are also possible.

Lighting LEDs on low voltage

LEDs are normally operated in parallel strings of series LEDs, with the total LED voltage typically adding up to around two-thirds of the supply voltage, with resistor current control for each string.

LED current is proportional to power supply (PSU) voltage minus total LED string voltage. Where battery sources are used, the PSU voltage can vary widely, causing large changes in LED current and light output. For such applications, a constant current regulator is preferred to resistor control. Low drop-out (LDO) constant current regs also allow the total LED string voltage to be a higher percentage of PSU voltage, resulting in improved efficiency and reduced power use.

Torches run one or more lighting LEDs on a low voltage battery. These usually use a resistor ballast.

In disposable coin cell powered keyring type LED lights, the resistance of the cell itself is usually the only current limiting device. The cell should not therefore be replaced with a lower resistance type, such as one using a different battery chemistry.

Finally, LEDs can be run from a single cell by use of a constant current switched mode invertor. The extra expense makes this option unpopular.

To see images, go to Wikipedia.

 

[dava04]

Cool, what LED's you using now, what kind of wavelength, what angle are your LED's are, do you have any ideas of their power output, also how have you set them up.

What are the results? Have you managed to get some awesome plants going?

Especially, your electric bill, how does that look now?

 

[ReactiveLlama]

Greetings,

I think I'm going to toss in my 2 cents worth.

The uneducated POV:

I'm going to start my grow cab construction in about 6 weeks (have some surgery to get out of the way first). I'm also a new technology junkie.. No.. I'm a new gadget, widget, technology whore. Yes, there you know my shameful secret. But I'm also the worse kind of widget whore. I love the things, but don't have any idea how they work and rightly suspect I lack the brains and attention span to find out.

So here's how it boils down for me.

MONEY.

There, the 2nd most important thing to a whore like me. Cashola, the mean green, whatever.

For about $400 I can get enough HID and Floro's to build a seedling chamber (and light it), a flowering/growth/bloom chamber with a 400 Watt HID and more floro's as side lighting. It should, skill of the grower factored out at the moment, produce some good buds.

What will it take to get the same OUTPUT in terms of buds from LED's? Well I did see the video where the UFO produced .X grams more per watt than a 400 Watt HID, but produced less over all from a single plant. These results did not encourage me.

So here's the test I want to see. I don't wanna know the lumens or watts or whatevers to gram. I wanna know what the cost is per gram (roughly). That's what might sell me a little better. Starting from scratch with 1 light and 1 plant what does it cost to produce a gram of bud with each and you have to include the startup costs since for LED's that the most painful part.

I pay about $8 a gram on the street. A HID powered cabinet will cost me all said and done less than $1000. To match the rough power of my HID/Floro lights in LED's I'm looking at another $1-2000.

How many years of growing do I have to go through to finally break even? To keep me and only me happy my grow must produce at least 364 grams of bud a year. At 8 bucks a gram that $2,912. So to break even for me I need to produce 364 grams for $2912. $1000 for cab and lights, leaves me $1912 for other costs. So if my costs for year 1 are $1912 total that means I saved $1000 or $2.75 a gram vs. buying off the street (no mentions of improved potency, quality and taste). Every extra gram I get though increases these savings. From what I've read a person who knows nothing and simple does everything he's told to do by the people here without questions 364 grams a year is easily done. Cee's claimed he or someone he knows will get 700 grams in a similar sized area 5-7 times a year with a little more total wattage as I'll be using. I'm no Cee's but lets pretend that I'm half asses at least and get 3 crops a year.. 9-12 plants per.. Say at least 30 grams from each at about 3.5 feet on a 12/12 system. So 810 grams to 1080 grams. My lights run 12/12 year round so that means no extra energy costs, so it's nuts, seeds, medium as the big costs through the year. I could realize a significant savings on my weed costs in the first year alone..

Can the same be said for LED's and when WILL I see those same savings with LED's is my question..

Sorry about the long winded post!

 

[dava04]

ReactiveLama, all I can tell you is around 60-80W of LED's should be able to replace the 400W HPS and your electricity saving will be a least 70% on that bulb, not to mention there's no need for a cooling solution.

You can figure out the cost of the electricity easily enough, however set up costs I don't have a clue. I'm in China and so have no idea how much you have to pay for LED's.

However if you were will to build it yourself that would be much cheaper.

As for the yield, make sure the wavelength of the lights you chose are correct, and wait a while, to see the results of the other guys on here testing.
If you went watt for watt 400W LED vs 400W HPS, LED would win, however 400W LED would be pretty expensive.
Also someone mentioned on here that UV was really important, LEDs give off hardly any UV light.

 

[dava04]

New HID LED, 50% more efficient than your HID lamp

follow the link for a tutorial posted by420stallion on UV importance.

 

[Smokin Moose]

I believe the addition of the required UV spectrum will have an impact on the potency of bud produced under LED's. The science is there to prove it. Infra-red is a different matter. I would suspect you would only need a very small number of UV LED's in a bag to get the desired result. It is purely a supplement to the existing blue and red, not a required essential. The increase in potency may only be 0.05%, but it is there nevertheless.

 

[Smokin Moose]

I cannot comment on amber, but I support the addition of a small number of UV in the LED panel.

 

[Boss]

I just tried to get some of these, but they are 3 bucks each, minimum 500. OUCH.

LUMEX -SML-LX1110SOC-ATR HIGH InGaAIP Orange/Red 620nm Clear 2.5
Axial intesnisty:25000 90 degree angle

 

[Smokin Moose]

Double 'Ouch!'

 

[Boss]

Are those lumex bulbs?>

 

[Boss]

Yes

 

[dava04]

Yeah looking at the datasheet for: LUMEX -SML-LX1110SOC-ATR HIGH InGaAIP Orange/Red 620nm Clear 2.5 Axial intesnisty:25000 90 degree angle, its not very good!
It's a 1W power LED, but only has 15lm, red can easily be at least 35lm, and the viewing angle of 180deg, although not really needed, 120 deg is standard, but I hear that 30 deg is ideal for growing, you can fit lenses to the Power LEDs to achieve the desired angle.

a420seeker the LEDs in your picture look interesting, where are they from? Whats the driver that it uses? and how many of them would you prospose using? However the output you quoted though can't be correct, there are 3 LED and I guess the output figures are for 1W X 3 so the unit's lumens:

White: 180 lumens

Blue: 60 lumens

Red: 140 lumens

There are only a handful of manufactures that can get more that 150 lm per white 1W LED, Seoul semiconductor being the best I think (but don't quote me ) @ 220lm per 1 Watt LED, and if you can buy them, they aren't cheap at all!

 

[Boss]

One thing is sure, there are tons of LEDS out there NOT suitable for growing It's hell weeding through specs.

 

[dava04]

For sure man, wavelenght, angle, brightness, its a danger laden path for the uninitiated.

That said get eh correct colour (wavelenght) and as bright as absolutley possible and you cant got to far wrong.

PS was just looking at your 'poor mans grow' that kicks ass, just goes to show that an hour in walmart, a decent 6x6 space, a few rolls of aluminum foil and your away, smokey time!

 

[Boss]

I completed the LED grow test, I think I had them too far away, but watt for watt, production was better under the led/cfl combo then all CFL's by a long shot. 250watts vs 450 watts, and plant size was just a bit smaller than the cfl's.

 

[Racefan]

I keep seeing the fact that LED's using less electricity as a major point. I could care less about that. I want to know if they grow bud instead. Has anyone had a successful grow using nothing but LED's. So far o one I know of has and those who have tried have been extremely disappointed with the results.

 

[Boss]

Yep, the new high outputs are coming out, but the 300w unit I looked at was $1700 bucks. But, it was a real grow light, no doubt.

 

[dava04]

Aside from the fact that saving electricity is not optional today, the view point of racefan (I don't mean to be harsh) is irresponsible at best, you just can't justify using 1000W of power to grow a plant thats marginally better than one grown using a quarter of that power.

The main problems from what I see with LED grow lights are, and conversely this is exactly how to choose a good one.

The intensity, choose a light with high proven MCD intensity.

The angle of the light needs, need to consider that more lights are used to cover the same area of one large HPS.

The actual shape the beam the LED creates, as not all LED lights are created equally. This means that if when you look for an LED light for growing you should test to see how the light looks when it comes out of the light, if it seems weak, then its weak and and good strong solid light is best.

Obviously these lights can grow plants, otherwise NASA would be using them, the point is that the secrets on how to use them are only just being uncovered, diligence care and research when choosing a light will reap its reward.

 

[Boss]

You make a good point about the 30-45 degree output. I was looking for 90's. I think they make 250 watt light bars that plug in together to make long strips that uses 3 watt LEDs. Still very expensive.

Prices are coming down pretty quickly.