Starting Organic No Till: Looking for some input

[SurfWeed]

Aloha all. I want to get into no till gardening for my medical plants. I’ve been reading and reading for some months now and have a good grasp on it the process but have yet to put anything into action. I have a yard of soil being delivered on Thursday. It is 40%screened topsoil, 40%organic compost, 20% black cinder. I will be mixing coots amendment mix with it, but I believe I will need to amend the soil further. He assures me it’s all organic stuff and from our correspondence hes very helpful n knowledgeable. I plan to have this soil cooked n ready to plant in by June or July. Not gonna amend the whole yard but will amend it as needed for my beds. Any input on what I should add to this soil for a no till bed besides my coots mix? Not sure on the topsoil quality but he says it’s good stuff. I’m thinking more lava rocks, or rice hulls/vermiculite for aeration, maybe peat moss or coco?? I’m in west Maui. Real hot in the summer. We also get big gusts of wind being in at the base of a valley, so a suggestion for mulch that resists wind is appreciated as well.

edit: i also should add that he says he changes this mix for his cannabis plants by adding vermiculite, perlite, worm castings, and 'spaghetti mulch' which im not familiar with. so i think im on the right track with adding some aeration component. but not sure if the peat is necessary. however the minimum delivery for that soil is 6 yards and im not about to order that much soil.

 

[Reave]

What is “top soil”. You would likely need that tested to find out how to amend it. The reason coots mix works is because it is based on good compost and EWC. I just started in this whole organic soil journey but that’s what coot himself says. “You don’t have my castings”.

I recently mixed up a batch of coots with some locally sourced EWC and compost. So far so good but that could change as they need more food I’m sure.

I’m sure someone more knowledgeable with making soils will pop in. May your gardens be green and plentiful.

 

[StoneOtter]

Welcome SurfWeed!

 

[Stunger]

Hey Surfweed! Wow so you're in Hawaii, that's already a bit of a legendary soil place, welcome!

I grow in what I'd call living organic soil but I am barely more than a newbie at it myself. So mostly I would say just follow the recipe, plenty of people here at 420 get great results with Coots mix, and the better quality those components the better result, as it makes a difference. If you're going to add additional things then try to do so with a view of overall balance and if possible allow plenty of time to cook/settle, as when excess has occurred time may/can allow the soil to right itself.

 

[bobrown14]

I use coots mix as a top dress in my veggie and flower gardens with GREAT result. Use it like a mulch layer. The soil organic matter will react with your native soil and it will make a HUGE improvement. Then try some cover crop late fall and early spring.

You can mix it you'll be fine.

For outdoor weed I suggest large bags plus 30gal for outdoor can amend and reuse next year or dolly them indside for fall/winter/spring grow.

 

[Nunyabiz]

The "top soil" is the only thing I'd question but being in Hawaii topsoil could be good and volcanic.
Topsoil near me would be glyphosate drenched shit.

But, IF the soil thats being delivered is a quality soil and you amend it properly then you could be good to go in the soil dept that will be up to you to decide.
80% topsoil/compost however will need a lot more aeration.
I would add lots of pumice and rice hulls.
And since you're talking outdoor beds then I would start Hugelkultur mounds and use your soil for the top layer.

 

[bobrown14]

Topsoil... prolly getting at the local nursery. Most of them mix their own for spring planting in greenhouse and sell extra. The term "topsoil" prolly being used as a term everyone familiar with. It's probably a mix of old compost or soil from last years mix.

 

[SurfWeed]

Thank you all for the good advice. Really appreciate you folks taking the time to answer. The diversity in your suggestions Just goes to show that there are so many ways to go about this and all the methods you guys mentioned sound great. I will inquire further about his ‘topsoil’ - I’m pretty noobish at gardening as I finally have a spot I can grow without worries. I am starting with a couple 2x4 fabric beds about 90 gallons each.

My soil salesman has a base yard he shares with someone that is used specifically for composting. We had an EKO facility that shut down 3 months ago and he informed me that the local nurseries bought up to 400+ yards of the stuff before they shut down. And the nurseries have no problem letting people put it in their veggie gardens.. sneaky bastards.. I’m sure you all know why EKO compost is bad.. keyword biosolids. human poop, triclosan, heavy metals, Basically anything that goes down a drain can end up in the compost made with sewer sludge. So he does stay far away from nurseries judging by his tone when informing me of the sleazy nursery practices. So hard to support local companies when you actually research and learn about these kind of things.

I am gonna put my trust in this guys compost and aerate his soil mix accordingly per coots 3 part recipe.. what worries me a little was that he says he adds earthworm castings for his medical cannabis plants. Might imply that the compost is insufficient in microbial life. Then again, he probably doesn’t let the soil cook as we would in preparation for no till. Do you think sufficient cooking will let the microbial life multiply enough to enrich some otherwise average compost? He does speak very highly of the compost. I only have recently started a worm bin, but I could probably add a small amount of my own worms n castings to my bed (would this be while it is cooking or after??) i do have some extra coots mix so maybe I can also topdress with it but I’m worried it will blow all over the place with the wind factor. Maybe put a layer over my soil, then use a heavier mulch like wood chips on top of that to keep it from blowing around.

 

[Nunyabiz]

For mulch you could do a living mulch, a cover crop and a sparce layer of barley straw, the cover crop will not blow away and will help the mycorrhazae to spread which needs roots to do so.
I would also add quite a few worms.

 

[SurfWeed]

For mulch you could do a living mulch, a cover crop and a sparce layer of barley straw, the cover crop will not blow away and will help the mycorrhazae to spread which needs roots to do so.
I would also add quite a few worms.

thank you biz, you led me to some extra research about cover crops which i originally decided against. but their resistance to wind makes it a logical option.. im not always the brightest tool in the shed

The "top soil" is the only thing I'd question but being in Hawaii topsoil could be good and volcanic.
Topsoil near me would be glyphosate drenched shit.

But, IF the soil thats being delivered is a quality soil and you amend it properly then you could be good to go in the soil dept that will be up to you to decide.
80% topsoil/compost however will need a lot more aeration.
I would add lots of pumice and rice hulls.
And since you're talking outdoor beds then I would start Hugelkultur mounds and use your soil for the top layer.

Topsoil... prolly getting at the local nursery. Most of them mix their own for spring planting in greenhouse and sell extra. The term "topsoil" prolly being used as a term everyone familiar with. It's probably a mix of old compost or soil from last years mix.

thank you both! my guy has just informed me that this topsoil is finely screened soil harvested from the north face of our west maui mountains aka 'Mauna Kahalawai', which is a volcano that has long since been dormant. it now acts as a natural rain catchment system.. i think this stuff will be prime!! the west maui mountains are beautiful..overflowing with life..one of the wettest places on earth. the wild boars up there cause soil erosion, and eat indigenous plants, so local boar hunters also are able to feed their families while preserving the native vegetation that is going extinct. so grateful to be in this place. hopefully their harvest practices are somehow environmentally friendly, but it is hard to picture that it would be. but i could definitely be wrong.

i will proceed with this mix by adding extra lava rocks. i got some rice hulls coming in the mail, so will probably use some of those too for some slow release silica. i want to stay away from the agsil. i am trying to find horsetail locally so i can start growing it and eventually make an fpj out of it as they are rich in silica (would help easy my mind about resisting our summer heat which can get pretty extreme), and would make a nice windblock at the edges of my yard..also maybe help block the light from my neighbor's house during the dark period..there is no fence seperating us. ill be sure to start a journal once i start mixing

 

[Reave]

Sounds like good stuff.

 

[bobrown14]

Your top soil sounds like its the best. Volcanic soil dont get better bro.

Where's your favorite surf spot on Maui??

 

[SurfWeed]

Your top soil sounds like its the best. Volcanic soil dont get better bro.

Where's your favorite surf spot on Maui??

kahului harbor, and a dingy little neighborhood called paukukalo is where my favorite waves are but honolua bay is one of the best in the world and a real pleasure to surf when its not so crowded.

I had to reschedule the soil delivery due to work and other personal matters. been so busy since our hotels have opened back up. but this is giving me more time to gather knowlege and resources. the black cinders i have are mostly the size of perlite, but theres some big rocks >1" in there too ill probably pull out by hand since theres not too many of em.

 

[SurfWeed]

Alright. So I now have a huge freakin’ pile of soil in my parking spot. He dropped off way more than I expected. I thought I was getting a yard. It’s gotta be like 3.5 yards. But the stuff seems like it’s really good quality. Smells good. Consistency is that of some good compost. The stuff I pulled out from deep in the pile is hot to the touch. Gonna take what I need to the backyard and mix rice hulls and the coots mix in tomorrow. I did read up on some hugelkulter .. but I don’t really have enough material to start yet. My girlfriends father grows some stuff and composting is a new concept to him. My compost bin is looking good so far. And worms look healthy. Had a few mushroom blooms in the compost bin and the bottom of the can is starting to look like soil. Couple things before I start mixing:

- can I pour my soil mix right into my
Raised bed and let it cook there?

-should I add some worms now, or after cooking the soil?

 

[StoneOtter]

Cooking time will depend somewhat on temperature. The warmer the faster. In the bed may take longer than in the cellar or in a black barrel in the sun but it'll work. Maybe cover it with a black tarp.

 

[Nunyabiz]

Id let everything cook in the large pile, it will take less time.
And don't put worms in until it's done cooking.

 

[SmokingWings]

- can I pour my soil mix right into my
Raised bed and let it cook there?

-should I add some worms now, or after cooking the soil?

The others talked about putting into the raised beds now versus later. If you have raised beds that sit right on the ground or soil the earthworms will make their way into the new soil as it cools off after cooking. If you put the worms in while the soil is still 'hot' the earthworms will either die off or they will burrow their way out and into the soil.

Something to keep in mind.

I had a question. What is this 'black cinders' you mentioned in the first msg? Is is crushed black lava rock? Is it bio-char? Is finely chopped up black rubber from tires? That is something that is used as a mulch in high use landscaping paths or under children's outdoor gym sets, etc.

 

[SurfWeed]

The others talked about putting into the raised beds now versus later. If you have raised beds that sit right on the ground or soil the earthworms will make their way into the new soil as it cools off after cooking. If you put the worms in while the soil is still 'hot' the earthworms will either die off or they will burrow their way out and into the soil.

Something to keep in mind.

I had a question. What is this 'black cinders' you mentioned in the first msg? Is is crushed black lava rock? Is it bio-char? Is finely chopped up black rubber from tires? That is something that is used as a mulch in high use landscaping paths or under children's outdoor gym sets, etc.

thank you. It is crushed lava rock. Mostly About the size of perlite. I get it for about $5 per .75cu ft. The package says ‘provides aeration to clay soils’ and ‘hydroponic growing media’.

Id let everything cook in the large pile, it will take less time.
And don't put worms in until it's done cooking.

So I don’t have enough nutrient mix to amend the whole pile. Should I start a separate smaller pile with coots nutrients and mineral and some MBP mixed in, cover it up and just leave that to cook, then transfer to the garden bed? I was thinking letting it cook in its final home would be viable since I wouldn’t be disturbing the microbes once cooked by shoveling it into a new container.

 

[Nunyabiz]

thank you. It is crushed lava rock. Mostly About the size of perlite. I get it for about $5 per .75cu ft. The package says ‘provides aeration to clay soils’ and ‘hydroponic growing media’.

So I don’t have enough nutrient mix to amend the whole pile. Should I start a separate smaller pile with coots nutrients and mineral and some MBP mixed in, cover it up and just leave that to cook, then transfer to the garden bed? I was thinking letting it cook in its final home would be viable since I wouldn’t be disturbing the microbes once cooked by shoveling it into a new container.

I thought your compost was already cooking.
Thats the main thing creating heat.
If you think the compost has already done its thing then yeah just add your amendments, let that settle for a week or so put in some cover crop and add your worms

 

[SurfWeed]

I thought your compost was already cooking.
Thats the main thing creating heat.
If you think the compost has already done its thing then yeah just add your amendments, let that settle for a week or so put in some cover crop and add your worms

sorry for the confusion. the pile of soil is in my driveway and covered with tarp, so in a sense that is cooking. if i reach into the pile it is very warm to the touch. but i have not mixed my coots amendments with that huge pile. this soil i got delivered is supposedly ready to plant in, so i believe the compost has already been aged and done its thing. i moved about 10 cubic feet to the backyard, mixed in my amendments. i just thought the cooking process was supposed to take >1 month after mixing my amendments in, but i can see now how it may be different since i am not using the CSPM / Compost / Aeration / coots mix recipe from scratch, but rather already have a finished soil and just adding coots amendments. correct me if im wrong, this is my current understanding:
these amendments are for the long term health of the soil, in a sense slow release nutrients, and the amylase and other enzymes in the MBP topdress along with the fulvic/ aloe water will continue to help microbes with conversion throughout the grow, rather than AACT method. since my soil was already sitting somewhere before it was delivered, there should be sufficient nutrients to start some plants in after a shorter 'cooking' period. then the worms will constantly be creating some castings in my bed as well to ensure it stays fertile and aerated. theres lots of conflicting info out there so im still constantly reading and trying to understand how things work rather than just blindly following instruction but its alot to go through

so i have a smaller pile in the back all mixed up, gonna moisten it, put it in my 90 gallon fabric bed, cover, and wait til some mycelium starts to form. really appreciate you fellas dumbing it down for me. much "mahalos" to you all(thanks )

edit: (and be sure the temperature is stable before planting my cover crop)